Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (63)

16,122. When did you last take any veils to the shop?-I think it was the week before last. I got 9d. each for them; they were knitted with Scotch wool. When they are coarse, there is less paid for knitting than when they are fine.

16,123. Were these coarse veils?-No, they were ordinary quality. The worsted was not the very coarsest.

16,124. Do you know what was the value of the worsted per cut?-I cannot say.

16,125. Who did you sell them to?-To Mr. Robert Linklater.

16,126. Do you know what you would pay for them at the shop?- I think it would be about 2s. or 2s. 6d.

16,127. Would you go and buy one of them and bring it to me here?-Yes.

[Page 409]

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, recalled.

16,128. [Produces veil.] Is that one of the veils you are knitting for Mr. Sinclair just now?-Yes. It is his own worsted that I am working it with. I think I will get 16d. for it. I have got that for veils of the same quality.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

16,129. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to what the witness Grace Slater has now said?-The only explanation I have to make is, that the veil she has now produced belongs to the same class of goods as that with regard to which Mr. Linklater and I were previously examined. The veil which she has produced is quite a good thing, but in the same class of goods there are a great number of job articles which tear in the dressing.

16,130. What is the selling price of such veils?-From 2s. 6d. to 2s. 9d. That is the highest price we get for them.

16,131. What quantity of worsted is in one of them?-About 6d. worth of worsted.

16,132. Is that two cuts of 3d. worsted?-No, it is mohair. But there will be other veils of the same kind which will be worth not more than 18d. or 20d., and therefore the profit which we get upon one veil is no proof as to the amount of profit, if any, which is got upon the whole.

16,133. What quantity of worsted is there in a veil like that?- About 1/4 oz. The price of that worsted is about 36s. now, but I paid 32s. 6d. for it. Taking it at 32s., that would be 2s. per oz., and therefore 1/4 oz. would be 6d.

16,134. How many bad lots might you have in an ordinary time in such veils?-The only way of getting at that would be by examining our books. This very season I had a lot of about 30 dozen veils, which cost me altogether about £45, and I sold them for about the lot.

16,135. How did that happen?-Just because I could get no more for them. I would have been very glad to have got more if I could. I may mention that there is not 20 per cent. of these veils which realize the price I have mentioned of 33s. per dozen, although they all cost that price. Most of them run about 2s. 2d. or 2s., or something like that.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.

16,136. [Produces black veil.] Have you bought this veil from Mr. Linklater?-Yes. He says these veils sell at 18s. a dozen, or 1s. 6d. apiece; but this one is undressed, and therefore I only paid 1s. 41/2d. for it.

16,137. Is this one of the veils which you knitted, and for which you got 9d.?-Yes.

16,138. Do you not know the value of the worsted required for it?-No.

16,139. You said you know the value of the worsted in the shawls you knit?-Yes.

16,140. Then how do you not happen to know the value of the worsted in the veil?-Because I knitted them for myself in the one case, and in the other I always got the worsted to knit them with.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER MUNRO, examined.

16,141. What are you?-I am second officer of Customs at the port of Lerwick.

16,142. How long have you been in that position?-Fully five years.

16,143. Were you here before it was usual to pay the seamen engaged in the Greenland voyages at the Custom House regularly?-No; I came here in the first year that the special regulations came into effect-1867.

16,144. Did it come under your notice after you came here, that the men who received their wages at the Custom House were frequently indebted to the agents by whom they were engaged?-I am not cognisant of the fact whether they were indebted or not.

16,145. Were you not aware that settlements were sometimes made with the clerk of the agents, or the agents themselves, for accounts due to them at the time when the men were receiving their wages before the superintendent?-Yes, I understood so.

16,146. Was that frequent during the first year that you were here?-Yes.

16,147. Were these settlements actually made in 1867 in the Custom House?-There were deductions taken from the balances shown to be due to the seamen, in addition to the deductions specified in the agreement.

16,148. Did the superintendent interfere to prevent these deductions from being made in his office?-Yes; the parties were interfered with by the superintendent, and the practice was stopped.

16,149. Was that in 1867 or subsequently?-I think it must have been in 1869 or 1870.

16,150. Did the practice go on without interruption or objection until that time?-Not without interruption. We tried to stop it, but we did not succeed altogether until 1869 or 1870.

16,151. Since that time has any attempt been made, within your knowledge, to make a deduction of that kind in the Custom House?-Not so far as I am aware.

16,152. Have you been aware whether seamen have received the money payable to them under deduction of the agent's account in any case?-I could not positively say, but I think I have seen it done.

16,153. Have you suspected that the seamen were receiving only a part of what was really payable to them?-Yes.

16,154. What reason had you to suspect that?-Because I could see them keeping the deduction off.

16,155. Is the money usually counted in presence of the superintendent or of yourself?-Yes.

16,156. Has that always been so?-No. It should always be done, but it has not been done at all times.

16,157. Is there sometimes a press of business which prevents it?-Yes, sometimes; and you cannot always keep your eye watching everybody.

16,158. Do the cases to which you refer, occur when there is a press of business?-Occasionally.

16,159. Are you aware that seamen coming to receive their wages at the Custom House have usually had a settlement with the agent beforehand at his office?-I am not aware of that.

16,160. Have you found, in the course of your experience, whether the seamen, when paid at the Custom House, generally know the amount of their account at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of that either.

16,161. Have you at any time heard the agent, or his clerk, while settling with the seamen, or after settling with them, in presence of the superintendent, remind them that they had to go down to his office and pay their account?-I cannot say positively that I have heard the agents say that to the men, but I know that it was an understood thing that they should do so.

16,162. Is it not so now?-I fancy it is.

16,163. How did you know that it was understood?-I have overheard the agent and the men talking about it between themselves in the office. I could not exactly bring the words to my remembrance which I have heard used, but I have seen cases where a small balance might be due, and when the agent did not have change to settle with a man, he said he would settle when he came to settle the other account at the shop.

16,164. The matter has come under your notice in that way, so that you have come to be aware that it is a usual thing for the men to go down and pay their accounts [Page 410] after having been settled with at the Custom House?-I should fancy it has.

16,165. Have you had anything to do with the engagement of seamen?-Occasionally.

16,166. Are they ever engaged in presence of the superintendent?-For foreign-going vessels they are always engaged there.

16,167. Are they so engaged for the Greenland and sealing vessels?-Yes.

16,168. Is the agent present then and the captain of the vessel?- Yes.

16,169. Is the selection of the men usually left to the agent, or does the master of the vessel exercise a choice?-I fancy the agent collects the men and the master selects them out of the crowd.

16,170. Does the agent interfere with the selection?-I am not aware. They are all selected before they come before us.

16,171. Have you noticed whether in recent years the number of young hands engaged in the sealing and whaling voyages has been less than it was when you first came to the office?-I have not observed that.

16,172. Have you heard any of the men complain that they could not get their wages paid when they wanted them?-I have heard complaints with regard to the second payment of oil-money. The men said the agent had not got his return, or something to that effect, that he was not aware of the quantity being ascertained.

16,173. Is that the only complaint you have heard on the subject?-I think so.

16,174. Do you know whether there was any difficulty or objection on the part of the agents to comply with the regulations when they were issued?-There was little bit of difficulty, and I have no doubt there was little objection at the time.

16,175. What was the ground of it?-I cannot say, except that it was troublesome.

16,176. Was there no objection made to you or in your presence?-No; I cannot bring a case of that kind to recollection.

16,177. Then what was the difficulty or objection that you refer to?-I suppose it was the compulsion of bringing the men forward to be discharged, and producing store-books, and all that.

16,178. Do you mean that the agents do not like to have the settlement made in presence of the superintendent at all?-I don't mean to say that exactly; but I mean that it gave them a good deal of extra trouble, and it was sometimes disagreeable.

16,179. You have said that there was a good deal of difficulty in getting them complied with at first: do you remember any explanation or reason that was given by the agents for that?-The first year I came here the master of each vessel had to get a store-book, in which were entered the goods or whatever extra stores might be supplied to the men during the voyage, and I have known these books coming ashore signed by the master and the men when they came into the agents' hands, as it proof of their correctness. Then the shop goods which had been supplied to the families of the men during their absence were entered in, but we had to compel them to deduct these and delete the entries.

16,180. Was that a difficulty which you had in 1867?-Yes, the first year.

16,181. Did you find it to exist after 1867?-No; we stopped it at once.

16,182. Then in 1868 there was still a difficulty, as you have already said, in getting the regulations enforced: what was the difficulty then?-The only difficulty then was the agent deducting his own account from the balance shown in the men's account, and handing over the net balance only.

16,183. That did not appear in any written accounting that took place before you?-No.

16,184. Have you seen that attempted so lately as 1870 or 1871?- Not in 1871, I think. I rather think the last time was in 1870, but I could not be positive.

16,185. Are the rules strictly observed now?-So far as we can attend to them, they are.

16,186. Are you not able to attend to them?-Yes.

16,187. Then they are attended to?-Yes.

16,188. What did you mean by qualifying your answer, and saying, so far as you could attend to them?-I meant by taking steps to stop all these informalities.

16,189. But there are no informalities now?-No.

16,190. Is there no delay now in settling?-There is delay in settling, most undoubtedly.

16,191. Is that not strictly prohibited by the regulations?-I don't think it is. There are five days allowed for settling, according to the Act; but here it takes five or six or seven or eight months.

16,192. What is the cause for that in your opinion?-I cannot say.

16,193. Have you any doubt that the men would come forward to be settled with if they were instructed to do so by the agent and the master of the ship?-I should think they would, and be paid within a day or so after the ship's arrival. I think that would be far better for all parties.

16,194. Are you aware whether there is any difficulty in making up the statutory accounts of wages which justifies a delay of five or six months in settling?-No. I think they can be made up in the course of ten hours for any whaling crew.

16,195. But there may be a difficulty in making up the account at the agent's shop, may there not?-I don't know. They might have that prepared beforehand, if it was necessary.

16,196. Do you know whether the effect of the delay which so occurs is to make the men incur larger accounts at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of that.

16,197. Have you ever heard any statement from the men to the effect that they had to go to the shop during that period of delay?-I never did.

16,198. Do you think it is the fault of the men that the settlements are so long delayed?-There is no doubt a fault on the part of the men, because, if they go away to their homes in the distant islands, there must necessarily be a difficulty in collecting them again.

16,199. But is it not the custom to let them away in the first instance without directing them to come and receive their wages?-I think so.

16,200. Do you know whether they have ever been strictly ordered to attend for that purpose by the master of the ship?-Not to my knowledge.

16,201. Where are the men usually landed from these whaling vessels?-They are sometimes landed at the lighthouse, sometimes at Scalloway, sometimes at Sumburgh Head, but most commonly at Lerwick harbour.

16,202. Are nine out of every ten landed there?-No, but more the one half of them are landed in Lerwick harbour.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. MARGARET SMITH or GIFFORD, examined.

16,203. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,204. Do you knit haps?-Yes; but only a few, because I am getting old and weak, and I am not so able to work as I used to be.

16,205. Have you knitted lately for Mr. Sinclair?-I have knitted for him for a long time. I think it is about a fortnight since I sold my last hap to him. It was between 11/2 and 13/4 yards.

16,206. What kind of wool was it made of?-Just common wool of different kinds-grey and black and white.

16,207. Was it worth about 2d. per hundred?-It would be worth about that.

16,208. What did you sell it for?-6s.; that was what I commonly got for these little haps.

16,209. Did you sell it for that price in goods?-I was to get anything I wanted. I have something to get yet. I got tea and soap, or anything I required, and I shall get the rest as I need it.

16,210. Was that about the ordinary price which you got for a hap of that size and quality?-Yes. If I could make them bigger, I would get more money, perhaps 10s., and from that down to 6s.

[Page 411]

16,211. How long have you been dealing with Mr. Sinclair?-I have dealt with him from 1840 or 1845.

16,212. Have you always been paid by him in goods during that time?-Yes, when I asked them; but if I asked any other thing I got whatever I asked.

16,213. Have you bought articles for money in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-It was not very often that he got any money from us; but when I wanted anything from him, I found there was no difference whether I paid for it in money or in goods.

16,214. Do you mean that you paid the same price for the goods which you bought, whether you paid for them in money or in hosiery?-Just the same; I never saw any difference.

16,215. Are there not two prices in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-Not so far as I know; but I can only speak for myself.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, WILLIAM GARRIOCK, examined.

16,216. Do you live in Sandsting parish?-Yes.

16,217. Are you serving in the Naval Reserve in Lerwick just now?-Yes.

16,218. Have you been bred to the sea?-Yes.

16,219. Where have you been at sea?-I have gone to Greenland and Davis Straits, for the most part.

16,220. Have you ever been at the Faroe fishing or at the ling fishing?-No.

16,221. Have you been south?-Yes, I was south for a short time; but I have generally gone to the seal or whale fishing since I was able to go.

16,222. From what agents have you got your engagement?-From Mr. Joseph Leask, Mr. George Reid Tait, and Messrs. Laurenson & Co.

16,223. How long have you been doing that?-Since 1854. I have been in Greenland almost every year since then.

16,224. Did you always get your outfit from the agent with whom you were engaged?-Always.

16,225. And some supplies for your family besides?-Yes.

16,226. Did you keep an account in the agent's shop, from which your family got what they wanted during your absence?-Yes.

16,227. Did your wife get all her supplies from Lerwick?-No; she got most of them from shops in our own neighbourhood, because it was a long distance to come to Lerwick; but sometimes she sent here, and sometimes not.

16,228. Why did she send here for them?-Sometimes she had to send here for money when she could not get money from her neighbours.

16,229. Did she get money here whenever she wanted it?-Yes, so far as ever I knew.

16,230. Did she have allotment notes?-Yes, towards the end of the time, but not at first.

16,231. Did you always take allotment notes for her use while you were absent?-I have done so lately.

16,232. Are these allotment notes taken in her name?-Yes; but sometimes I have been so much indebted to the agent before I left, that I had to leave the allotment note with him until he was paid.

16,233. Have you done that lately?-Yes.

16,234. Had you been in his debt before you engaged with him?- No. I got into his debt at the time of engaging. I got a lot of things from him then.

16,235. Did you leave your allotment note in his hands as a security for the payment of these supplies?-Yes.

16,236. Was the note taken in the agent's name?-No; it was taken in my wife's name, and she was supplied by him if she required anything.

16,237. Who was the agent you engaged with last year?-Messrs. Laurenson & Co. I also engaged with them the year before. The year before that, I think I engaged with Mr. Joseph Leask.

16,238. In all these years did you run up a pretty large account at the agent's shop?-Yes; I always had an account with the agent.

16,239. Did you settle that account before you went up to the Custom House to be paid your wages?-No. Sometimes the agent was at the Custom House to receive payment of his account there, and sometimes I went down to his shop and paid him after I had been paid myself.

16,240. But was the account settled in the book, and the amount due by you to him ascertained before you went up to the Custom House?-Yes.

16,241. Was that done always?-No, not of late.

16,242. Why did you get supplies from Lerwick when you could have got them nearer home, without giving your wife the trouble of sending so far for them?-Sometimes, perhaps, I could not get credit from a neighbour.

16,243. Could your wife not have got money from the agent in Lerwick by sending in her allotment note to him?-If I was in debt to the agent, I could not expect him to advance money until he was paid his debt; but I never saw an agent refusing money, even although there was an account due to him.

16,244. Did you ever ask money and get it when there was an account due?-Yes.

16,245. Do you mean that your wife asked for money when you were away?-Yes.

16,246. Did she require it for any particular purpose when she asked it in that way?-I cannot say.

16,247. Did you ever know of her asking for money in order to buy supplies near home?-No, I never knew that.

16,248. Do you think she would have been likely to?-I don't think it. I think if she had ever done it, I would have known.

16,249. Do you think she would have got the money if she had asked it for that purpose?-I am sure she would.

16,250. Then why did she not do it instead of carrying her supplies all the way from Lerwick?-I don't know as to that.

16,251. How far is it from Lerwick to your place?-I never heard of it being measured, but I should say it is over twenty miles.

16,252. You say the agent keeps your allotment notes, even although they are in name of your wife?-Yes, if I am indebted to him.

16,253. Don't they require to be signed by your wife?-Not at first.

16,254. But afterwards?-Yes; if she has a note, then of course she has to sign it before she gets the money.

16,255. But she does not require to sign it when she gets supplies; these are set down to the account?-Yes; she does not require to sign it unless she is drawing her half-pay at the Custom House.

16,256. Has she ever drawn her half-pay, so long as you remember?-Yes.

16,257. Is that long ago?-It is perhaps a couple of years ago.

16,258. How much of it did she draw then?-She drew half a month's pay every month when I was away.

16,259. What did she do with that?-I suppose she required it.

16,260. Did she spend it at home or in Lerwick?-I cannot say.

16,261. Was the allotment note in the agent's hands at that time?-No.

16,262. She had got the allotment note that year herself?-Yes.

16,263. You had sent it to her before you went away?-Yes.

16,264. Then at that time you had not run up a large account with the agent?-Not very much.

16,265. Had you any account with the agent that year at all?-I don't remember; I don't think it was very much.

16,266. There might have been a little for some articles of outfit, perhaps?-Perhaps there was.

16,267. When you settle at the Custom House, are you ever told by the agent's clerk who goes up to hand [Page 412] you the money, that he expects you down at the shop to settle your account there?-Yes; but I usually go first to the shop and see what my account with the agent there is, and then I pay him immediately afterwards, either at the Custom House or at the shop, as soon as I am paid myself.

16,268. Are you expected to go down and pay your account at once?-Yes.

16,269. Are you ever spoken to about going at once?-No, I have never been told to go at once; but I understand it is my business to pay it at once, as long as I am able to do it.

16,270. Is it expected that the men going on a Greenland voyage are to take their supplies, partly at least, from the agent's shop?-I don't know if it is expected or not. I suppose it is expected, but a man may buy his outfit wherever he pleases.

16,271. Did you ever know a man buying it elsewhere than at the agent's shop?-I have bought some articles elsewhere myself.

16,272. Did you ever buy the whole of your articles anywhere else?-Yes.

16,273. Why did you buy any of them elsewhere?-I was not very particular about where I went. If I had money in my hand I went to any place that was most suitable, or where I could get the most suitable articles.

16,274. Did you often do that?-Not often. I more frequently had an account with the agent.

16,275. When you go to make an engagement in the agent's shop for a voyage, are you sometimes asked if you want anything?-No, I am never asked that, unless if I happen to be running an account he may ask if have got all my things, or something like that.

16,276. Does he not usually ask you that?-I cannot say that he does.

16,277. Is there any difficulty nowadays in getting berths in Greenland ships?-Sometimes there is because there are not many ships that come here.

16,278. Are there more men than berths?-Sometimes that is the case.

16,279. When that is the case, what kind of men have the best chance of being engaged?-I don't know.

16,280. Do you think a man who owes an account to the agent, or who is to keep an account with him, has a better chance than another?-I cannot say that he has.

16,281. Do you think the men have that impression?-I believe they do have that impression; but whether it is a right impression or not I cannot say.

16,282. Have you learned from some of the men themselves that such an impression exists?-No, not from the men themselves.

16,283. Then how do you know that they think so?-I have no real knowledge on the subject; only I know that is said to be the case.

16,284. Who says it?-I cannot mention any particular person that I have heard it from. Perhaps when they see a man engaged for a ship, when they do not have a chance themselves, they may think there is some cause like that to account for it.

16,285. Then some of the men do think that they have a better chance of a berth if they have an account with the agent?-I have merely heard that said; I have no experience of it myself.

16,286. Do you think that if you were not to come down from the Custom House at once and pay your account in the agent's shop, you would have a chance of getting a berth from that agent next year?-I believe I would.

16,287. Why do you think so?-Because, if I was due the agent an account, he might perhaps think that I would make a better voyage in another year, and that I might then be more able to pay him.

16,288. But do you think he would have anything to do with you if you refused to pay your account to him at the settlement in November: do you think in that case that you would have a chance of getting another engagement from him in February or March?-I suppose I would have a chance.

16,289. Would he not say that he would have nothing more to do you, because you had not paid your previous account?-No; I never saw that done.

16,290. Is that because you have always paid your account in proper time?-I don't know; but I always have paid my account when I could.

16,291. Did you ever know of any man who did not pay his account to the agent as soon as he got his money at the Custom House?-No, I never knew of any man who did not do that.

16,292. Did you ever hear that spoken of?-No; I never heard about anything of that kind.

16,293. Did you never hear the men talk among themselves about that matter?-No.

16,294. What do you think would happen if you did not go down at once to the agent's shop and pay your account whenever you got your money at the Custom House?-So far as I know, I don't think anything would happen at all.

16,295. Do you think the agent would look after you?-I have been due things myself for about a year but he never looked after me. That was before I was paid at the Custom House.

16,296. Then you had settled with the agent in office on that occasion?-Yes; and left a balance due.

16,297. Were you due that balance to the agent for twelve months afterwards?-Yes.

16,298. Did the same agent get you a berth in a Greenland ship in the following year?-No; I left that agent and went to another for that year.

16,299. Did that other agent take the balance over and become responsible for it?-Yes; it was brought into the next agent's books.

16,300. Who was the agent who took over your debt in that way?-I was once due an account in that way to Mr. George Reid Tait, and I afterwards found it in Mr. Leask's books.

16,301. Did you not know of that until you found it in Mr. Leask's books at settlement?-I knew I was due the account.

16,302 You knew you were due it to Mr. Tait but did you know that it had been transferred to Mr. Leask until you found it in the book?-No; I did not know that until then.

16,303. Were you surprised to find it charged in Mr. Leask's books against you?-No; I was not surprised at all.

16,304. Did you expect to find it there?-No, not exactly; but of course I would have paid it if I had been able.

16,305. Did that happen to you more than once?-No; only once, to my recollection, in that way.

16,306. Did it ever happen to you in any other way-It happened once in this way: that I supposed I was due an account to Mr. Leask in one year, and I found the account standing in his books against me next year.

16,307. Did you change your agent that year?-No.

16,308. How long is it since your account with Mr. Tait was transferred to Mr. Leask?-I cannot say exactly, but I think it will be more than twelve years ago.

16,309. Have you never had a balance against you since at settlement?-No.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROSS GEORGESON, examined.

16,310. Are you a seaman living at Scalloway?-Yes; I am skipper of a Faroe smack.

16,311. In whose employment have you been lately?-Mr. Leask's.

16,312. For how many years have you gone to the Faroe fishing?- I have gone every year for about fifteen or sixteen years.

16,313. Are you now serving your time in the Naval Reserve?- Yes.

[Page 413]

16,314. Have you always had an account in the books of Mr. Leask when you were engaged in his smacks?-Yes.

16,315. Did you settle that account with him every year?-Yes.

16,316. Have you been employed in his service at any other part of the year, except when you went to the Faroe fishing?-No; but lately I have gone a voyage or two to the south with fish in winter.

16,317. Do your family get their supplies from Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,318. All the year round?-No; only when it is convenient. For instance, when we go round to Scalloway with the vessel, we generally take a good stock of things with us, which helps us through part of the season.

16,319. Do you not take goods across the country to Scalloway sometimes when any of your family happen to be in Lerwick?- Only very little.

16,320. Do you settle about December or January every year?- Generally about the 1st of December.

16,321. Do you get the balance which is due to you then in cash?-Yes.

16,322. Do you sometimes get advances in money during the course of the year?-Yes; I get what I require.

16,323. How much do you generally get in money before the settlement?-Generally between summer and winter I may run an account of about £30 or £40 for myself and the vessel.

16,324. But what do you get in your private account?-Just what money I require, and what I ask. I may perhaps ask £4 or £5 or £6 at a time, just as I need it.

16,325. Is it for any particular purpose that you ask for so much?- No; there is no particular purpose ever mentioned.

16,326. Do you think you would get all the money that was due to you at any time before settlement if you asked for it?-I have no doubt of that; but there is generally an account run.

16,327. Do you take out goods in the course of the year when you want them?-Yes, when it is convenient to get them to Scalloway.

16,328. Suppose you did not take out any goods at all, but wanted to get the whole in cash, do you suppose you would get that?- Yes.

16,329. Have you ever asked for it all in cash?-No; because I leave my money along with Mr. Leask.

16,330. What do you mean by leaving your money along with him?-I get the same interest for my money when it is in his hands as I would get from the bank.

16,331. Then when you settle you don't always draw the whole balance that is due to you?-No.

16,332. You leave it in Mr. Leask's hands, and get interest allowed to you for it in your next account?-Yes.

16,333. Did you always have an account with him?-Yes.

16,334. Do all the men in the smacks keep accounts with the owner of the smack for their supplies?-Yes, so far as I know.

16,335. Do they all get money when they ask for it?-I never heard anything else. I never heard any man say that he had asked for money and did not get it.

16,336 Do they generally ask for much money?-I don't know. I suppose every man asks for what he requires, or according to what he has to get.

16,337. Are they not expected to get their supplies at the merchant's shop?-It is just as they like.

16,338. Of course it is just as they like, but are they not expected to get a part of their supplies in the shop?-I suppose so. They always do so.

16,339. Are there as many men to be had for the Faroe fishing as are wanted to man the smacks?-Yes. There has been no scarcity in time past.

16,340. Do you know of any men who go to the Faroe fishing and draw money from the owner in the course of the season for the support of their families, and who do not get any supplies at all?- No. , They generally take their goods for the voyage from the merchant, whether they take anything else or not; but I never knew any men who did not take some supplies from him.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ARTHUR MOFFAT, examined.

16,341. Are you a seaman living at Lochside, Lerwick?-Yes.

16,342. Are you now serving in the Naval Reserve?- Yes.

16,343. Where have you been employed?-I have been going to the seal and whale fishing.

16,344. Have you ever been at Faroe or at the ling fishing?-No.

16,345. What agents have you engaged with for the Greenland voyage?-I have been out for the whole of them.

16,346. Did you always keep an account for supplies with the agent who engaged you?-Yes.

16,347. Was that settled at his office before 1867?-Yes.

16,348. Since that year it has been settled at the Custom House?- Yes.

16,349. Do you always go straight down from the Custom House to the agent's office and pay your account?-Yes.

16,350. Are you expected to go straight down?-I don't know, but I think it my duty to do so.

16,351. Are you expected to take some of your supplies from the agent who engages you?-We just take them as we require them.

16,352. But if you require supplies or an outfit, are you expected to take them from the agent who engages you?-Yes, we can do nothing else but take them from him; we cannot go to a strange shop for them, because they would not give them to us.

16,353. Why would they not give you credit at it strange shop?- Because they do no business with us, and perhaps they would not know us.

16,354. Would you not have your first month's pay in advance with which to buy what you wanted?-Not very often, because I don't take it out in that way.

16,355 But you could it?-Yes.

16,356. And if you had it you could get what you wanted at another shop?-Yes.

16,357. When you go in to engage with an agent does he, or do his shop-people, ask you if you want anything?-No.

16,358. Do you generally get an advance note?-Yes, we get it, but we leave it with the agent; at least I do.

16,359. Why do you leave it with the agent?-Because I find the half-pay too little for the support of my wife and family during my absence. They require more supplies than that, and they get them out of the agent's shop.

16,360. Has that been your practice for a long time?-It has.

16,361. Have you always engaged with the same agent for a number of years back?-Yes, I have engaged with Mr. Leask for some time.

16,362. Have you always got your supplies at his shop?-Yes.

16,363. You said you could not get credit anywhere else: is that because Mr. Leask has the command of the money you are to get?-No, it is not that, because we get the money if we want it.

16,364. You could get the money if you wanted it on an allotment note, but not otherwise?-Yes.

16,3 65. Do you say that you could get a larger amount of supplies at Mr. Leask's shop than your allotment note would pay for if you had it?-I do.

16,366. Have you a balance to receive at the end of the year when you settle with Mr. Leask?-Generally.

16,367. Are you never in his debt at settlement?-No.

[Page 414]

16,368. Does your wife get cash from Mr. Leask when she wants it?-Yes.

16,369. How much does she generally get?-I don't know.

16,370. Did she ever get 5s. at a time?-Perhaps she got the whole half-pay at a time if she wanted it, or the half of it.

16,371. Was that if she wanted it for any particular purpose, such as for paying rent?-Yes, or any necessary thing.

16,372. But it was only for a necessary purpose that she got it?-I suppose so.

16,373. Is it generally understood among the men in the whaling, that they ought to deal with the agent who engages them for a voyage?-No. We can deal with any person we like.

16,374. But don't they always deal with the agent who engages them, taking their outfit and their supplies for home from him?- Yes.

16,375. Do you think that if a man did not deal with the agent he would be as likely to get a berth next year as if he had kept an account with him?-Just the same; I never found any difference.

16,376. But did you ever go to another agent for your supplies than the one who had engaged you?-No, not in that particular season; but I have changed agents occasionally.

16,377. How long is it since you were engaged by another agent than Mr. Leask?-Two years. I changed from Laurenson & Co. to Mr. Leask then.

16,378. Why did you change?-Just to fall in with the ship that I wanted to go in. That was my only reason.

16,379. Were you clear with Laurenson & Co. when you changed?-Yes.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, JAMES LAURENSON, examined.

16,380. Are you a seaman residing at Mews, in Dunrossness?-I am.

16,381. Are you serving at present in the Naval Reserve?-Yes.

16,382. What trade have you been engaged in as a seaman?-I have mostly been in the south.

16,383. Have you been in the Faroe fishing?-No.

16,384. Have you been at the ling fishing?-I was two years in the ling fishing at Mews, about eight or nine years ago, for Mr. Robert Mullay.

16,385. Did you keep accounts with him then for your supplies?- Not for supplies, only for fishing material.

16,386. Did you get any advances of money from him?-I did not ask for any; I did not want them at the time.

16,387. Would you have got advances of money if you had asked for them when you were not taking supplies?-I expect I would.

16,388. But you did not want the money, and you did not ask for it?-I did not ask for it.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER GOODLAD, examined.

16,389. What are you?-I am a seaman, and I live in Lerwick.

16,390. I understand you wish to make some statement about the sealing and whaling voyages?-Yes. If I ask a half-pay note from an agent, it cannot keep my family, and I am not much acquainted with any person except the agent who will give me credit and therefore I don't know where to get supplies for them in my absence except through him.

16,391. What is the amount of your wages?-Usually 50s., and my half-pay is usually 25s.

16,392. Do you commonly run an account with the agent?-Yes.

16,393. Is your reason for doing so that your halfpay is too small?-Yes.

16,394. Did you ever try to get credit anywhere else except from the agent who engaged you?-I have.

16,395. Were you refused?-Sometimes, but not always.

16,396. What reason was given for refusing you credit?-They said they did not know me.

16,397. Was that by a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,398. Were you asked on these occasions whether you were running an account elsewhere?-Yes; and I was told to go to the agent's for what I wanted.

16,399. Do the tradesmen here expect that you will get your supplies from the agent who engages you for the whaling voyage?-Commonly they do.

16,400. And they don't care for giving credit to men who are running an account with the agent?-No.

16,401. Were you running an account with the agent also at the time when you applied for credit in that way?-No; I was clear with the agent at that time.

16,402. Did you get no supplies from him at the beginning of the voyage?-No; but I have sometimes got supplies from the agents before I went on another voyage.

16,403. What merchant refused you credit in the way you have mentioned?-It was some of them who did not know me in Lerwick.

16,404. Did they refuse because they knew that the agent had the command of your money, and could keep it for his own account if he had one?-Yes.

16,405. Did they say so?-No, they did not make that statement exactly; but they told me that when a man was getting a ship from an agent he should go and get his things from him.

16,406. Did any merchant refuse to give you goods, and give you that reason for his refusal?-Yes.

16,407. Was he an agent in the whaling trade?-No, he was not.

16,408. Had you an account at that time with any agent?-Yes.

16,409. I thought you said you had not?-I was done with the agent, and had signed clear in his books.

16,410. What season of the year was that?-In February.

16,411. Do you engage then for the rising season?-I engage for it in the month of March.

16,412. Do you then open an account with the agent for your supplies?-Yes.

16,413. Then is it quite an understood thing that man who engages with an agent for a Greenland voyage must get his supplies from that agent's shop?-If his goods are as cheap and its good as any other person's, they commonly take them from his shop; but if not, they usually make a change with the first month's advance they get, and buy what they want where they can get it cheapest and best.

16,414. Did you ever do that?-Yes.

16,415. Do you always do it?-There are many things which the agents do not keep, and therefore we have to go to different places for what we want.

16,416. Do you get money from the agents for that purpose?- Yes; we get our first month's advance on signing, and then they will give us supplies in addition for two or three months I suppose, or as much as we have a mind to take.

16,417. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House, when you were getting your pay, about going down to the shop and settling your account?-I commonly settle my account before I go up to the Custom House.

16,418. But you don't pay your money until after you have been at the Custom House?-No.

16,419. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House by the agent, or his clerk, about going down to the office and paying the money that was due?-Yes. I was told last year by Mr. Leask's clerk, Mr. Jamieson, to go down and pay the balance which I was due.

[Page 415]

16,420. Did he tell you that in the Custom House or at the office?-At the office, when we got our account of wages.

16,421. That was before you went up to get your money at all?- Yes.

16,422. He told you then to come back with it?-Yes; and to pay the balance due.

16,423. Is not that always done when you go to settle your account?-No.

16,424. Is it not often done?-No; only that was the time anything of the kind had been said to me.

16,425. Did you ever hear it said to anybody else?-No.

<Adjourned>.

LERWICK: TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 6,1872.

JOHN HARRISON, examined.

16,426. What are you?-I am a merchant in Lerwick.

16,427. Have you been for a long time a partner of the firm of Harrison & Son?-Yes, since 1856.

16,428. I understand you have had large experience in the management of the Faroe fishing business?-Yes.

16,429. Have you also had some experience with regard to the ling fishing?-Not a great deal; but I have had some.

16,430. Has your firm had any connection with the management of land or property in Shetland?-None whatever.

16,431. Have you neither been tacksmen nor proprietors?-My father is a proprietor to a very small extent.

16,432. But you have not been in any way dependent for your supplies of fishermen upon any interest or connection with land?-In no way whatever.

16,433. Did you find the absence of that connection with land to be any inconvenience to you in the management of your business, with regard to getting fishermen?-None whatever; but men have been hindered from engaging with us, in consequence of being under the power of tacksmen or landlords, who wished to engage them for themselves, although they would have preferred to have gone into our service.

16,434. Has that occurred in many cases?-I cannot state the number of cases, but it has occurred in many, and within recent times.

16,435. Can you give an instance of that without mentioning names?-I could not particularize the instances at the present moment, but if I had time I am prepared to bring forward more than a dozen instances within a period of between two and four years back.

16,437. Are you now speaking with regard to your supply of Faroe fishermen?-Yes.

16,437. Is it not the case, that where tenants are bound fish for their landlord or tacksman, that obligation only applies to the ling fishing if they engage in it but that they and their families are quite free to go to the Faroe fishing or the whale fishing if they please?-Under the system which obtains in Shetland, it makes no difference what fishery a man may go to. He is bound to do what the landlord or the tacksman wishes; if not the result is merely the service of a warning to the parents; and of course, in consequence of the injury which that would do to them, the children, out of their kindness to them, must submit to any rules which may be laid down for their observance.

16,438. The evidence which has been led before me before, of fishermen and of proprietors, has been to this effect, that the obligation upon a man to fish for the proprietor or tacksman extends only to the ling fishing, if he is engaged in it, and that if he chooses to go to the Faroe fishing he is at perfect liberty to do so?-I know of no such obligation.

16,439. Has your experience been different?-Entirely different.

16,440. Does your experience not apply to cases where the tenant may have been in debt?-When the tenant is in debt, it is utterly impossible for him to go and serve another man. But I was referring to the case of parties who were quite free of debt, and who had money in their own possession.

16,441. How many of these cases have come within your knowledge within the last two or three years?-I could not particularize them. There have been several cases which have come under my own notice, or the notice of my firm, although I could not state the number; but from hearsay, and from the talk of men who are serving other owners, I am led to believe that a very great number of these cases has occurred. I do not mean to say that there was actual straightforward force put upon the men; but there were certain innuendoes, by which they knew perfectly well that if they did not do as the tacksman or landlord wished, the result would be that they would be warned out.

16,442. Can you mention the circumstances of any particular case in which men have been prevented from going to the Faroe fishing in any of your vessels?-I can particularize one instance which came very vividly before me. There were two brothers, who had been with my firm since they were boys. I had rather a respect for them both, because they were honest men and capital fishermen. One of the boys came to me and said, 'I find that I cannot go in the vessel I wished to go in this year, because I am told by the tacksman that my parents will be warned. My brother can go; but if he does, he will have to pay so much for the liberty of going in the vessel that he wishes to go in.' I had no reason to doubt the correctness of that statement, because, notwithstanding his evident anxiety to get into the vessel belonging to us, in which he wished to go, and in which he had been serving before, he did not go in her; and it was the evident pressure that had been put upon him which hindered him from going.

16,443. Is that the most striking case of the kind that you have come across in your business experience?-I cannot say that it is the most striking case, but it is the case which appears at the present moment most patent to me, because we were so directly interested in it ourselves.

16,444. How long is it since that happened?-Three or four years ago; I cannot say precisely.

16,445. Is that the only way in which your not having connection with land has interfered with your business; or do you find it a disadvantage with regard to the manning of your own vessels, not to have landed property under your control?-No, I don't find that to be a disadvantage; I find that we have been the most successful owners of fishing vessels in the Faroe trade of any in the country; and the reason is simply this, that the men who come to us are free men-men who are not bound, neither will be bound, by tacksmen or landlords but men who have been able to earn money by superior energy; but we have had to do a great deal in order to obtain such it class of men, and we have had to lose a great deal of money which other people perhaps have put into their pockets.

16,446. Do you mean that you have lost it great deal of money in order to secure this superior class of men?- Yes.

16,447. But has not the fact that you have procured them, proved remunerative to you in the end?- [Page 416] Of course it has. It has been a gain to the men, and it has also been it gain to us.

16,448. Do you find that a man who is in debt is its good a fisherman, in your experience, as one who keeps clear of debt?- By no means. My experience has been, on more than fifty different occasions, that although men were due us from £5 to £18 or £20, we would not engage them again if the captains of the vessels said they were not fishermen who were worth being taken, and would rather lose the balances against them in our books than employ them.

16,449. Then you consider it an erroneous statement, that it is advantageous for a merchant in Shetland to obtain a great number of debtors?-I consider it to be the most erroneous statement that ever was made.