Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (61)

15,710. Was that because the men objected to it?-We always try to pay as high as other people; but this year we have not made such good sales, and therefore we have not taken anything off, so that we might be able to give as much per ton as other people give. In other years, again, we may get two and a half or we may get five per cent, just as the fish sales turn out; and the men don't object to us getting it if we can.

15,711. Why is there no stipulation for a commission put into the agreement?-It has never been put into our agreements from the first.

15,712 Is it a usual thing to take it?-Yes, it is quite usual if we can get it; but we have to bear and haul with other people, and if the men would be dissatisfied with us taking it we have to give it up, and we would rather do so than have any words about it.

15,713. Was this not a good year in the Faroe fishing?-No, very indifferent.

15,714. What was the amount of a share in one of your smacks with an average take this year?-I should say about £18.

15,715. Was that sum larger than the ordinary, or would some of them be less or more?-We had some of them as high as £28 for a sharesman.

15,716. Were these in the larger smacks?-No; there were others as large, but less fortunate; and there were some of them much smaller, and they could not be expected to do so well.

15,717. Do the men ever ask for or get a sight of the bills of sale?-Yes. I have shown them to the fishermen this year.

15,718. Had you ever shown them to them before?-Yes. I had not shown them to every man, but I had shown them to the captain, who I expected would have more knowledge of the matter than the other men.

15,719. Do the men generally run accounts at your shop?-Yes; every one of them has an account.

15,720. Do you think they get most of the supplies for their families during the season from your shop?-I think they do. Perhaps there are two or three of them who want to look after their means better than the rest, and who have money lying beside them: these men may perhaps buy goods with cash, and not from our shop; but, as a rule, every one of them gets his supplies from us.

15,721. I believe the majority of your men are not in debt to you at settlement, but have a balance to receive in cash?-Yes. I think there are very few this year, and there were very few last year, who were in debt; and even with these men the amount of debt is very small.

15,722. Do you think the amount of debt was smaller than usual in the two years for which you have given [Page 396] returns, 1867 and 1871, or was it about an average?-That depends altogether upon the fishing. If it is not a total failure, the men are generally all clear of debt; but if a bad year comes in, then we cannot expect that.

15,723. How do you account for the fact that the men almost all take their supplies for the season from your shop in an account with you?-If they have no money, it is not likely that other people will give them supplies, unless they know them very well; and even if they have money, I always find that the men prefer to keep it and come to the shop again and take up goods.

15,724. Do they keep the money in their hands rather than pay for the goods in cash when they get them?-Yes, invariably. I have frequently noticed that practice among the men, and I have spoken to them about it. I have paid as much as £20 to a man at settlement, and then he would come into the shop and take out his outfit. I have asked them why they did so, and told them it would be better for them to pay for their goods with their own money, and then they would know what they were doing.

15,725. What was their answer to that?-They said they preferred to keep the money. It was always in their hand, and the goods could stand over for a year; and perhaps, if the next year's fishing is bad, they think we will allow it to stand for two years rather than push them for the price.

15,726. Would the men not get their goods cheaper if a system existed of paying in cash?-I don't think they would.

15,727. They might not get them cheaper as matters stand at present; but if they were, all willing to pay in cash, would it not be possible for you to give them their goods cheaper than you supply them upon credit?-I would not sell cheaper for cash. The goods are all marked in figures, and when they are paid for in cash they are charged at the same prices as when put down to the account. We have not two prices for our goods.

15,728. What proportion does your cash trade bear to your credit trade?-I should say that it is more than one third, but not one half.

15,729. In the answers you have given, are you speaking of the Faroe fishermen in your employment, or are you also referring to the home fishermen?-I have been speaking of the Faroe fishermen principally.

15,730. Where are the men employed by you in the ling fishing?- Most of them are situated in Sandwick parish.

15,731. Have they also accounts in your shop here?-Most of them have.

15,732. But not to the same extent per man as the Faroe men?- No; but we know exactly how much they are likely to gain, and therefore they are not allowed to exceed a certain sum.

15,733. Do you limit the credits of the men employed in the home fishing?-They limit their credits themselves, because they are grown-up men with families, and they know how far they should run their accounts. Of course, if they were running them further, we would limit them; but we rarely have to do that, because we know they must have the little which they do get.

15,734. Is not that the case with the Faroe fishermen also?-Yes; we limit them too.

15,735. But I understand you to say that the necessity for limiting the home fishermen is greater than in the case of the Faroe fishermen?-Yes.

15,736. Why is that?-Because I consider the home fishing is not so good a fishing: the earnings from it are not so great.

15,737. You said you knew quite well what the men are likely to earn in the ling fishing?-Yes. I can tell from my experience the outside which any ling fisherman can earn.

15,738. Do you know that before the season begins?-Yes. By taking five or six years together, I can see what a man has done in time past, and I don't expect that he will exceed it.

15,739. Do you think that any five years of a fisherman's life will give an average from which you can calculate his probable take for next year?-Yes; I think five years is quite sufficient.

15,740. The variation, I suppose, arises from the nature of the season?-Yes; in stormy weather they cannot go to sea so often as in good seasons, and in other times the fish do not come over the ground so well as they did before. Another thing is the herring fishing, which is connected with the ling fishing, the same boats being used for both purposes.

15,741. Are you engaged in it extensively?-No, not very extensively. I think we have about 10 or 11 boats altogether which fish in the herring fishery.

15,742. Is the engagement of the fishermen in the herring fishing similar to that which exists in the ling fishing?-It is exactly the same.

15,743. They are paid according to the current price at the end of the season, and that price is settled for at the same time as the price for the ling fishing?-Yes; they are both settled for together.

15,744. Do the returns which you have furnished with regard to the home fishing include in any of the answers the earnings from the herring fishing?-Yes; they apply to both ling and herring put together. In fact they apply to everything that the man has earned in the years to which the questions relate.

15,745. Do you think it would be practicable to introduce a cash system into Shetland in place of the annual settlements which now exist?-It would be better for the curer. I don't know if it would be better for the fishermen altogether. I think it would be better for perhaps one half or two thirds of them; but the other third, I am afraid, could not get on at all with the cash system.

15,746. Do you think they would have a difficulty in living over the first half of the year?-Yes; over winter or spring, until the fishing had commenced.

15,747. Do you think it would be impossible for them to get advances during that time in order to keep them going?-If they were to be paid in cash, the fish-curer of course would not give them anything until they brought the fish to him, and other people would be inclined to say the same thing. The man would merely have to be trusted like any other man going into any shop and purchasing goods on his own credit.

15,748. But, except for that difficulty, you would prefer a cash system?-I would.

15,749. Do you think there would be any difficulty in carrying out that system, supposing it were once begun, the men had tided over that transition period?-I think there would be none whatever.

15,750. Would it be possible to pay the men fortnightly or monthly, or at delivery?-I would pay them weekly.

15,751. Would you pay them the whole proceeds of the fish caught during the week?-I would pay them exactly for every tail they landed. I would fix a price with them at first, before they began to the fishing at all; but that price might be altered weekly, according the markets went up or down, the same as in any other trade.

15,752. Do you think the fishermen would agree to that?-We have asked them to agree to it, but they have not done so.

15,753. Was that because they did not like to have the price fixed and thus lose the chance of a rising market?-It was not so much the fixing of the price that they objected to. They would have agreed to that, but some of them who did not know where to find means said, 'What are we to do if we get no cash for a week or two in stormy weather, and we cannot go off; the merchant cannot supply us then.' Of course they could not expect us to supply them with anything after we had commenced with that system.

15,754. If the man was bound to fish for you, would you not be willing to give him supplies?-But they would not be bound to fish at all in that case.

15,755. But the men might be bound to fish for you all the season, although they were paid weekly?-I would not care to engage anybody then for the season. I would have a station at a certain place, [Page 397] with weights there, and I would pay for the fish as I got them.

15,756. Was that the nature of the offer which you made to the fishermen, and which they would not accept?-Yes. We would have no hold over the fishermen in that case at all.

15,757. Would it not be quite practicable to engage the men for the whole season and to pay them weekly?-It would be quite practicable.

15,758. Have you made an offer to them of that description?- Yes; we have made an offer to some fishermen who fish for us now.

15,759. Did you offer to engage them to fish for you for the whole season?-Yes. If they commenced, they would never think of changing.

15,760. In that case would there be any reluctance on the part of the fish-curer to make an advance to the men in a bad week if they were bound to fish for him over the whole season?-I should not care to do it because they might get no more fish after a certain date. At the end of the year the weather is very often such that the men cannot go off for weeks, and we might be advancing on the prospect of what never came, and then the men would be in debt.

15,761. In the case you refer to, were the fishermen not willing to accept your offer?-They were not willing.

15,762. Do you think it would have made any difference in that respect if the offer had been to pay a proportion of the price-say a minimum price of 5s. 6d. or so for ling-and that the balance should be paid according to the current price at the end of the season?-I don't know how that would do. I never spoke about that with the men. I think that would be giving them two chances. It would be giving them the cash, and then giving them the full value of the market after I had paid out my cash so much sooner than I would otherwise have done. When a thing is sold, it is sold, and you take your chance either to lose or to gain, but in that case the fishermen would have the cash in their hands, and they would also have the chance of benefiting by a rise in the price.

15,763. But in other trades, merchants have to lay out their cash in wages and take their chance of a return?-Yes; and I would do the same.

15,764. You would do the same if the men were paid wages, but would you not be prepared to make part of the wages dependent upon the market price of the fish?-No. I hold that in a business transaction, if a party agrees to sell, and you agree to purchase, the one takes his chance, and you take your chance too. That would bring each party to an understanding of how matters stood between them. If it was the practice altogether to purchase the fish green, and to pay for them in money, there would be so many people in competition for them that the men would be sure to get the full value, because, if I gave 6d. more, another man would be sure to give 6d. more if he could afford it, and the men would not lose by that. The fish would go up to the very top price, and the men would reap the advantage.

15,765. Do you think there would be always two or three competing merchants at each station?-Certainly there would. The stations are only half a mile apart; and if one man would not offer the price, another would do so.

15,766. Are your curers paid by weekly wages?-We have one curer paid by weekly wages.

15,767. Do you cure by contract?-Yes, as well as by wage.

15,768. How many people are employed in your curing establishment during the season?-I cannot say, because some go on for a week or two, and others go on at the end of that time; but we will have as high as forty and as low as twenty people who are not off work.

15,769. How are these people paid?-They are paid weekly by a daily wage on Saturday night.

15,770. Do they receive payment of their whole wages in cash?- Every penny.

15,771. Are they paid in cash even if they have had out-takes during the week?-They have no out-takes; we don't give them.

15,772. Is yours the only establishment in Shetland, so far as you know, where that is the practice?-So far as I know, I believe it is; but I am not certain. The only other one where I thought it was done was Leask's; but I happened to be present last day when Mr. Robertson was examined, and I heard him say that they did give credit, which I did not know before.

15,773. Has it been long the practice in your establishment not to give credit to your weekly workers?-It has been the practice for about five years.

15,774. Have you found it to facilitate your transactions very much?-Yes; and it was for that reason we gave up the practice of giving credit. When we first commenced to cure at Bressay, we paid by weekly wages; but the people usually wanted some advances before the Saturday night, and we found in a short time that we were losing money by bad debts while a great deal of time was involved in settling with them on the Saturdays. In fact it took up so much time, and caused so much trouble, that we stopped it altogether.

15,775. How did the bad debts occur?-The girls wanted to take up clothing, and on Saturday night they required food for another week, and we found they took up too much.

15,776. Have you found that the people are now contented with the system which you have introduced?-They are quite contented.

15,777. They don't come to you wanting out-takes?-Never.

15,778. Do you find they get on quite comfortably under the present system?-Yes. What took us hours before to settle, we can settle now in the course of half an hour.

15,779. Don't you think the fishermen might manage to get on under the cash system if it were introduced in the same way that you have done with your workers in the curing establishment?- The fishermen are different thing. The fish have first to be caught before they are paid for; whereas, in the other case, the people are engaged for a weekly wage, which they are certain to get.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, CHARLOTTE JOHNSTON, examined.

15,780. You live at Colafirth, near Ollaberry?-Yes.

15,781. How long have you lived there?-I was born at Colafirth, but I came to Lerwick when I was 25 years of age, and I was here for 17 years.

15,782. What did you do in Lerwick?-We kept a few boarders and lodgers.

15,783. What do you do now in Colafirth?-I have been employed scouring or dressing hosiery for the most part, and I generally had to go to one man with it for 10 years, except two months. I commenced on 1st. June 1861, and stopped on 8th April 1871.

15,784. Who did you dress hosiery for?-Chiefly for Mr. Morgan Laurenson, Lochend.

15,785. Do you also knit?-Yes.

15,786. Were you always paid for that in goods?-Yes.

15,787. Did you get them at Mr. Laurenson's shop at Lochend?- Yes.

15,788. Do you also deal sometimes at the shop at Ollaberry?- Yes.

15,789. Have you an account there?-Yes. I have had a good many accounts. I think the first account I had with Mr. Laurenson was in 1863.

15,790. Were these accounts settled regularly?-No; that was the mistake. I wanted to settle regularly after a few months, when I got home perhaps from 10 to 20 dozen, but he ran on the accounts for perhaps 14 or 15 months, so that I did not know whether I was going ahead or going back.

15,791. This account [showing] was settled on [Page 398] December 31, 1864: 'By contra., £7, 10s. 9d.' What was that due you for?-I had scouring, and I had two tatted rugs, and I knitted cloth.

15,792. I see the account is settled again on March 31, 1866: were you still working at the same things?-Yes.

15,793. The work you did was put at the end of the book?-Yes.

15,794. The book you have shown me is a very carefully kept pass-book, is it not? Is there anything wrong in it?-I was not satisfied, and therefore I kept it.

15,795. Why were you not satisfied with it?-I thought he charged me too much for my groceries, and gave too little for my dozens of scouring.

15,796. Could you not have fixed your price for your scouring yourself?-No, I did not get the chance. He did it all himself, because he had both sides of the question.

15,797. But you had no need to work for a less wage than you thought was fair. Could you not have gone somewhere else with your work?-He always thought I should work to him. I could have gone to many a place else, and got work and been paid for it what I thought was a fair price, but he thought I should still have to stay and work for him.

15,798. Why did he think so?-I suppose he thought he got as well done to by me as he could have got done to him by another.

15,799. But he could not oblige you to do anything you did not choose to do?-When I would refuse to do what he wanted me to do at a time when I was up myself, he would send the things to me in a box to be done.

15,800. But you did not need to dress the goods unless you got what you thought was a fair price for them?-I had to do it, because I had to work for my own maintenance.

15,801. Are the pass-books you have produced the only pass books you have?-Yes.

15,802. The next one is for 1868 and 1869. Is with Mr. Laurenson too?-Yes.

15,803. It is only brought down to October 1869. Have you had no pass-book since then?-No; I wanted to stop work then because I was not well.

15,804. Have you got no supplies from Mr. Laurenson since 1869?-Yes; I have got an account of them. [Produces account.]

15,805. When was the account settled last?-I think it was in April or May 1871; perhaps it may have been in June.

15,806. On May 16, 1870, I see you are charged 8d. for oatmeal: how much was that for?-4 lbs.

15,807. Were you told at the time you got it what the price of it was to be?-No; I did not know at the time how much it was to be.

15,808. On June 27 you are charged 2s. for tea: how much was that?-Half a pound.

15,809. Do you buy 4s. tea at Lochend?-We have bought 5s. tea at Lochend, but that was in 1863.

15,810. Is it very fine tea that you get at 2s. per 1/2 lb.?-We ask for the best that is in the shop.

15,811. Are you quite content with the quality of it?-We must just take it as it is, because we have no means of going anywhere else. I have a sample of it here. [Produces sample of tea.]

15,812. Is that 4s. tea?-No, it is 4s. 4d. tea. That [producing line] is the line they gave us for the goods we got on the 22d of this month. [Witness produces line in the following form

s d
By hosiery 2 0
Tea 1 1
0 11
Rice 0 31/2
0 71/2
Sugar 0 21/2
0 5

s d
0 5
Soda 0 1
0 4
Soap 0 11/2
0 21/2
Cloves 0 1
0 11/2
Sugar and tobacco 0 11/2

15,813. Where do you say you got these goods?-At Lochend, from Mr. Laurenson.

15,814. You took him 2s. worth of hosiery?-Yes.

15,815. How much tea did you get for 1s. 1d?-A 1/4 lb.

15,816. How much rice did you get for 31/2 d?-1 lb.

15,817. How much sugar did you get for 21/2 d?-1/4 lb.

15,818. Did you pay him 21/2d. for it?-Yes

15,819. Was that loaf sugar?-Yes; I have a sample of it.

15,820. How much soap did you get?-The soap was 6d. per lb. [The witness here produced a sample of the tea for which she had paid 1s. 1d. per 1/4 lb.; a sample of the loaf sugar for which she had paid 21/2d. per 1/4 lb.; a sample of the rice for which she had paid 31/2d. per lb.; a sample of the soap for which she had paid 6d. per lb.; and a sample of flour for which she paid 2d. per lb. These were all docketed by the clerk as having been produced by witness, and purchased from Mr. Laurenson's shop at Lochend.]

15,821. Did Mr. Laurenson know that you were to bring these goods here?-No.

15,822. Did you get them for your own use?-Yes.

15,823. Were you asked by your summons to bring them here?- Yes.

15,824. Are the articles which you get at the shop at Ollaberry of the same quality as you get at Lochend?-Mr. Irvine, who keeps the shop there, is very kind to me. If I want all cash at any time, he gives it; and Mr. George Henry and Mr. William Smith have also been very kind to me. They would give me cash at any time on my hosiery if I asked for it.

15,825. Are you quite sure that the samples you have produced were got at the same price that is charged for similar goods in your account by Mr. Laurenson?-The prices in the account are those which are charged when the goods are given for work, but the samples I have produced were given in exchange for hosiery.

15,826. Are there two prices for goods at that shop?-Yes, they always charged two prices. When we pay for goods in hosiery, they are always above the price which is charged when cash is paid for them.

15,827. Do you get the goods cheaper when you pay for them by your work, such as you are dressing, than when you are selling hosiery?-Yes. The price is then perhaps 1d. less for the 1/4 lb. of tea.

15,828. How do you know that?-Because I see it marked.

15,829. Was the tea for which you were charged 4s. 4d., when you paid for it by hosiery, the same tea that is charged 4s. in the account?-I think so.

15,830. Are you not sure of it?-I did not see them take it out of the chest. I asked them for the same tea, but I don't know if they gave the same kind.

15,831. But did you ask for the best tea in the shop in both cases?-Yes, I always do.

15,832. Then all you know is that you asked for the best tea in the shop, and it was charged 4s. 4d. when you gave hosiery for it, and it was charged 4s. when it was put into your account for dressing?-That is all I know; but it is a very short time since it was 4s. 4d. It was always 4s. 8d. before.

15,833. I see that on September 29, 1870, you are charged 1s. 6d. for oatmeal: was that a peck?-Yes.

15,834. Were you paying 1s. 6d. for the peck of oatmeal at that time?-Yes; and I suppose there were others paying it as well as me.

15,835. Would you have paid the same for it in any other shop in the neighbourhood?-No. It was dearer [Page 399] than if I had had the cash and gone into another shop to get it.

15,836. What did you say when you went to Mr. Laurenson with the hosiery which you sold to him on the 22d?-It was my sister who went, not me.

15,837. Did she tell you what she said?-I don't think it.

15,838. Are you quite sure your sister did not say what the goods were wanted for?-I told her what goods to ask for, and she got what I told her to get.

15,839. Did you tell her what you were to do with them?-No; I had not got the summons then.

15,840. Would you have got these goods from Mr. Laurenson even although you had not got the summons?-Yes.

15,841. Did you want them for your own use?-Yes. I got them on the Monday, and I did not get the summons until the Tuesday night.

15,842. You have not brought the whole of the goods which you bought then. You have merely brought samples from what you bought?-Yes. I was only told in the summons to bring samples.

15,843. Was the note which you have produced, given in the shop at the time when the goods were bought?-Yes. The shop lad marked down the things on that slip of paper and gave it to my sister, so that she might show me what she had got, and what the prices were.

15,844. You have handed me a letter from one Laurence Clark, dated 25th January 1872, in which he says, 'I have to inform you that I built Miss Charlotte Johnston a house in 1863, and I could not get 1s. from her, because she wrought all her work to Mr. Laurenson, at dressing hosiery, and could not get so much cash as 1s. Therefore I had to take anything that she had to give me, that could do me any good. That kind of payment is not so good as cash.'-For what purpose was this letter written?-It is merely a line from the man who built my house, to show that I could not get cash with which to pay him.

15,845. What did you pay Clark with for building your house?-I got meal, tea, tobacco, sugar, and anything that was in the shop at the times which he required; but I had to reduce the goods to him to cash price, because he would have required his money of me, and I did not have it to give him.

15,846. What was the price charged for building your house altogether?-He charged 15d. a day and his food; I think it came to about £2.

15,847. Did you give him a great deal more in goods, according to the price which was charged to you for them?-Yes. I gave him six yards of cloth for jacket, and other things.

15,848. I see there is a lot of tobacco entered in your book about 1863?-Yes; that was for the men who were working at the house.

15,849. When was the house finished?-It is about eight years in October since it was done.

15,850. I see there is some tobacco in December 1864. Was your house finished before then?-No. It was finished outside, but not inside. We went into it in October, but the windows were not in, and it was two years before I was able to get the flooring put in one of the ends of it.

15,851. Did you give him a little tobacco every now and then until it was finished?-Yes; but he got other things besides tobacco.

15,852. Does that account for the entries of tobacco in August and September 1865 in your book?-Clark was paid by that time, but I had to get my house thatched.

15,853. Was it not to pay him that you got that tobacco?-It was either to pay him or some one else who was working for me. I did not have any money; and when any one did any job for me, I had to pay them in some way or other.

15,854. What did you give them besides tobacco?-I sometimes had a few dishes that they required, and they took them or tea.

15,855. Does that account for there being so many entries of tea in your book?-Yes. I got wool and potatoes for tea.

15,856. At the settlement in July last there was a balance due by you to Mr. Laurenson?-Yes.

15,857. Have you not been working to him since?-I was not able to work.

15,858. About a month ago you got a notice from him that you would be summoned to court unless you paid the balance of your debt, 14s. 31/2d?-Yes; but I did not expect that I should have had anything to pay.

15,859. Did you think the balance was in your favour?-Yes, I expected that.

15,860. But you were running up an account, and you did not know?-Yes, but that was not my blame. I always wanted a settlement; and if he had paid me for my work and my goods, I would not have been due him anything.

15,861. When did you leave home?-I left home on Thursday, and came by the steamboat. I did not go on board of her at Ollaberry until Saturday night, but I had left home two days before, and had to wait for her.

15,862. How old are you?-I was fifty-two in July.

15,863. You are not in good health, and you are not able to walk a long distance?-No. I cannot walk far on account of the rheumatics.

15,864. Have you any idea when you will get home?-No.

15,865. Do you intend to go back by the steamboat if you can?-If the steamboat goes I will go with her but if not, I will have to stay until the packet comes back from Northmaven.

<Mr Guthrie>.-I have to give notice that I do not think at present that I shall summon any more witnesses to appear in Shetland; but there will be a meeting at half-past nine o'clock, and if any one wishes to make any statement, or to bring forward any additional evidence, he will then have an opportunity of doing so.

<Adjourned>.

LERWICK: WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 31, 1872.

JOHN GATHERER, examined,

15,866. You have been for a long time Collector of Customs at Lerwick?-I have. Before questioning me, I would like if you would allow me to make a brief preliminary remark or two which may render clear any after-evidence which you may call upon me to give. At the time when certain gentlemen tendered their evidence on Shetland truck before the Commission at Edinburgh, I read the brief, necessarily imperfect, and probably inaccurate reports of the same which appeared in the Edinburgh weekly papers. I also read some articles and letters which appeared in the newspapers at the time. About seven months ago I read, as printed I think in a Parliamentary blue book, the report of Mr Hamilton to the Board of Trade about the discharge of the Shetland whaling seamen at this port. I have never read the report since. On my return from the, mainland last summer, I found a gentleman had left in my house a copy of the evidence, as [Page 400] printed <in extenso> in a pamphlet form. I think the pamphlet contained a report of Mr. Arthur Hay's adverse evidence; but I had not time to read it before I posted the pamphlet to a friend in the south. I therefore never read his evidence. Beyond a brief newspaper paragraph, which I read recently, I literally know nothing as to the evidence which has been given under the present inquiry. I purposely kept aloof from the same, and from inquiring about the same. I appear here very reluctantly on the present occasion, and, as you are aware, I would not have appeared at all had I not been cited. I have several reasons for this reluctance to appear: I will mention two of them. I entertain very strong opinions condemnatory of the truck system, which I believe prevails all over Shetland; but I do not wish personally to have anything to do with the matter, directly or indirectly. I think it is to be regretted that the question as to the mode of paying the whaling seamen should have been introduced at in the Edinburgh evidence, and complicated by being mixed up with the general question of truck. Both questions, I think, should have been treated separately, as they are the subject of distinct laws and regulations, these laws at the same time being administered by distinct departments. From what I have already stated, you will see that I have a very imperfect recollection of the statements in Mr. Hamilton's report, but I recollect my impression of it at the time when I read it. It was, that the statements in the report were essentially correct representations of what had taken place at one time or other at Lerwick. I have heard that some one has questioned the accuracy of some portions of his report. It might be liable to misconception in this respect. When he inspected my office, we talked generally over the objectionable system that had so long prevailed here in the mode of discharging and paying off the men. A great deal of this must have been patent and notorious to Mr. Hamilton, as a former resident in Shetland, and having subsequent intercourse with the same; and he may not possibly, in his narrative of this to the Board of Trade, have clearly separated some of the past and the suppressed practices of the agents, and those of more recent date. This would the more readily occur, as I have reason to believe that at the time he prepared his report he was not aware that I had over a number of years repeatedly and fully reported the whole matter to the Board of Trade. I have here with me a report relative to the discharge of whaling crews during the last year, and some returns relative to the same, and for previous years, which I hurriedly prepared with the view of sending to the Board of Trade by the mail, which I expected would have sailed yesterday. When preparing the same, I was not expecting I would have to give evidence on the subject. I do not wish to hand in the documents, but I may have occasion to refer to them.

15,867. You showed me these returns last night, and allowed me to see the report which you were sending to the Board of Trade?- I did.

15,868. You are satisfied, I presume, as to the substantial correctness of these returns?-Yes, of my own report and the returns. There is a difficulty in preparing them, from the time that has elapsed; but, as you are aware, I have asked them to verify the accuracy of them at the proper quarter.

15,869. Subject to that verification, you believe these returns to be correct?-Yes. They were prepared by myself and those in any office from the records.

15,870. Therefore, if any application should be made to the Board of Trade afterwards for production of these returns under this Commission, you have no objection to their being regarded as part of your evidence given upon oath?-None; and in continuation of the report, I will refer to the fact that I have been examined before you.

15,871. You are aware that before 1867 the wages of seamen returning from Greenland voyages and landed in Shetland were never paid at the Custom House?-In some cases they were, but very seldom.

15,872. Do you also know from your own observation, and from what you heard at the time, that those seamen were generally running large accounts with the agents, by whom they were secured for these sealing and whaling voyages?-I was aware of that from the statements of the seamen, themselves.

15,873. In numerous cases?-Yes, in numerous cases.

15,874. In almost every case?-I believe so.

15,875. In what way did these statements come to be made to you?-The seamen often came and complained to me that they were not paid off. It may perhaps be proper to explain that at that time, before the special Board of Trade regulations were issued, the masters should have come and paid off the seamen. I may add further, that I am aware that every means was taken by the agents to keep the masters of the Peterhead and Dundee vessels from coming and discharging their men in cases where it would have been attended with no inconvenience.

15,876. In what way did you become aware of that?-I got numbers of letters from the masters stating that they were unable to attend themselves with the men. These letters, so sent to me, were often written by the agents, but signed by the masters.

15,877. Did you know them to be in the handwriting of the agents?-Yes, or of their clerks; and on inquiring at the captains when they came back to engage men again, some of them told me that the agents desired them to do so.

15,878. Not to pay the men?-Yes, not to pay the men. In these letters they stated that they often wished the men to appear, but that they (the men) ran away home; which statement the men subsequently told was incorrect.

15,879. At that time, was the payment of these Greenland seamen at Lerwick subject to the same general regulations which were in force in other parts of the empire?-Yes. There were instructions to shipping masters at that time.

15,880. Were these the same regulations that are still in force in other parts of the kingdom?-Yes.

15,881. They are still in force everywhere, except in Lerwick?- Yes. They are still in force, except in the case of Shetland, Orkney, and the port of Stornoway. I may mention that the procuring of seamen, by agents was at that time, and is still in other places, illegal and punishable by fine-that is, according to the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854. I believe the mode in which they then acted would in the south be treated as crimping; and allow me to say also, that the offence was rendered greater by the fact of the agents being merchants and supplying the men with goods.

15,882. I believe there is a prohibition of that?-Yes; and even licensed agents-that is, individuals licensed by the Board of Trade-are not allowed to be so if they have dealings with the men. That also is under the Act of 1854.

15,883. The regulation at the time you speak of, although it was not observed, was, that the men should be paid before the superintendent?-Yes, then called the shipping master.

15,884. That officer in this case was yourself, as there is no local marine board here?-Yes.

15,885. Why was the regulation not observed?-I am satisfied it was from the agents desiring to secure the profits on the supplies of the men.

15,886. Had you made frequent endeavours to enforce compliance with the Act?-Yes.

15,887. You reported repeatedly to the Board of Trade on the subject?-Yes. I may mention that, when I came here first, there was an attempt on the part of some of the agents to introduce their accounts into the men's accounts of wages, which I checked, and which I believe then led to the shipmasters not appearing.

15,888. That was many years ago?-It is a good many years ago. In some cases these accounts were introduced under the name of ship's accounts.

15,889. Was not that done as late as 1867, after the regulations had been modified? At least I was told that in some cases the agents had introduced their own accounts among the captain's stores in the ship's store-[Page 401]book?-I suspect that was done to a trifling extent, although I should not like to say decidedly that it was done.

15,890. Was there not a clause introduced in 1868 by which that was distinctly prohibited?-There were some defects in the regulations, and they were altered in order to meet the attempts made to evade them.

15,891. Since 1867 has the system been materially changed by the regulations then introduced by the Board of Trade?-Yes, materially.

15,892. The seamen now receive their full payment in cash in your presence?-They do.

15,893. Although not at the time required by the Act?-There is great delay in many cases.

15,894. That is said by several witnesses who have appeared here, to be due to the reluctance of the men to come forward, and their desire to go home and see their friends as soon as they are landed: is that so?-To a great extent, I do not believe that.

15,895. Have you any reasonable doubt that if the men were instructed by the master of the ship and the agents to go at once to the Custom House for payment of their wages, they would obey that direction?-I believe from my knowledge of the men, that if the master and the agent decidedly told them to go to the Custom House after being landed, they would go. There is no doubt that men after a long voyage are naturally anxious to get home; but if they knew they had to be paid then, they would readily accede to the request of the master and the agent.

15,896. Is there any reason you can assign, from your acquaintance with the practice in paying seamen's wages, why the accounts should not be all ready within the time allowed by the law?-My whole experience in the matter points to the fact that the agents are unwilling to have a speedy settlement, and that unless compelled they would never appear at the Custom House at all, or rather I should say at the Mercantile Marine Office.

15,897. Have you had occasion since 1868 to know that the seamen are still incurring large accounts, or considerable accounts, to the agents by whom they are secured?-I have endeavoured not to be cognisant of any of their dealings; but I may add further, that I believe, although the special regulations are outwardly and nominally complied with the agents still secure their accounts from the men for their supplies.

15,898. You think there is still a security-a sort of virtual impledgment of the men's wages although they are nominally paid over in cash?-Yes. It may not be by agreement, but the thing practically exists; and I never heard the agents conceal the fact that the profit on the seamen's wages is the main inducement to them in accepting the agency. That very fact, in my opinion, renders the whole transaction irregular and illegal. Of course, that is a matter of opinion.

15,899. Have you had occasion to interfere while seamen were settling wages with the clerk of the agent, in order to prevent part of the money being retained for the payment of the agent's account?-I may mention that the men, after being settled with at the Custom House generally run down to the agent's office. I know that, because I hear the men speaking about it, and the agents, or rather the agents' clerks, telling them to go down to the place.

15,900. Have you frequently heard the men told to go down?- Yes. The men sometimes blurt it out, and the agents' clerks are not very much satisfied at their doing so; but the whole thing is so well understood, that there is little concealment about it.

15,901. You have frequently heard conversations on the subject, showing that the men were expected to go down at once?-Yes; and some of the clerks had the audacity to attempt to deduct the amount at the office not later than last year.

15,902. Who were these? Are they mentioned in your report?- They are mentioned in my report to the Board of Trade.

15,903. Do you know whether one consequence of the new regulations has been, that the green hands engaged for the settling and whaling voyages are much fewer now than they were before 1867?-I am not aware of the fact. My attention has never been called to it.

15,904. Are you prepared to say that there are not fewer green hands engaged now than there were before 1867?-I cannot say as to that.

15,905. Your observation has not led you to think so?-No. The idea never occurred to me.

15,906. Have you had occasion to know whether the seamen have been told by the masters or the agents since 1868 to attend at the Shipping Office within the time required by law?-The special regulations, unfortunately, do not define any time within which they are to attend, and I have no doubt the agents know that fact.

15,907. The three days do not apply under these regulations?- That is a question that I should not like to give an opinion upon.

15,908. The clause about the three days is quoted in the last head of the regulations?-It is quoted there to show what the general law is.

15,909. But you have a doubt in your own mind as to whether it applies here?-I may at once say that these special regulations were a sort of compromise, and I am so far answerable for their being framed, thinking that they would secure the men their wages. My opinion now is, that it would have been better if the Act had been enforced as it originally stood; and I believe the thing will never be on a satisfactory footing as long as agents who are merchants continue to act as agents.

15,910. Is it not a benefit for the young men who are engaged for the Greenland fishery, to be able to get their outfit from the merchants on credit, as they do?-I think the same thing could be secured by other and legitimate means.

15,911. You know that the men get an advance note for the amount of the first month's wages?-Yes; and after these special regulations came into force, Laurenson & Co. were the first who paid the men over the counter in cash.

15,912. You are speaking now of the advances?-Yes, of the advance note. Messrs. Hay latterly did the same; and Mr. Tait, I think, did so this year for the first time. I recollect asking Mr. Laurenson if he sustained any loss by treating the men with confidence and giving them the money, and to the best of my recollection he said he did not.

15,913. But the outfit requires a larger sum than the advance amounts to in any case?-Yes; but allotment notes would meet that. That would give the relatives of the seamen an opportunity of drawing the money in their absence.

15,914. Are these the only means by which you think a young man without an outfit could provide himself with one?-I think any merchant would give the seamen credit, if they were certain that the present agents did not enjoy the monopoly of giving them their supplies. I may further state, that I believe a gentleman intends to a certain extent to act its agent for some of the vessels this year, to pay the men's advances in cash, and to allow their allotment notes to be paid by a banker or some disinterested party. If that system were introduced, it would knock the whole irregularity on the head. Such is my individual opinion.

15,915. Do you think the gentlemen who now act as agents would have any hesitation, or that any danger would arise to them, in supplying goods to the men, if they were not acting as agents, but merely as merchants?-I think they are not entitled to enjoy a monopoly of the trade.

15,916. But supposing they were not acting its agents at all, but merely as merchants, do you think they would hesitate, or that they would incur any risk by advancing outfits to the men its they now do, but without the security or the quasi security which they now possess?-In that case the men's custom would be distributed over all the town. They would give their custom to the merchants they were partial to, instead of being confined to the shop of the agent who engages them, as at present.

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15,917. But would those who got their custom incur any serious risk in giving them their supplies and outfits on credit?-They would be liable to the same risk that every merchant who embarks in trade is subject to. No man can deal with another on credit without being liable to a risk; but at present the merchants practically enjoy a monopoly of the seamen's supplies.

15,918. The seamen, however, could go to any other shop in town for their supplies if they chose?-At present they could, but I have no doubt they would offend the agent by doing so. If they repudiated his right to secure his own account, that would put an end to the thing, because the main inducement for the agents to act as they do is that they have the supplying of the men with goods.

15,919. Have you anything else to say?-Nothing.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN WALKER, recalled.

15,920. You formerly gave evidence before the Commissioners under the Act of 1870, in Edinburgh?-I did.

15,921. Are there any points on which you wish to give further information?-I merely wish to reaffirm all that I previously stated. From what the people say, the only thing that seems to require explanation, is with regard to the value of the worsted or wool for the making of a shawl.

15,922. You refer to question 44,290: 'I know for a fact that the worsted of a shawl which sells at about 30s. is worth from 2s. to 3s. They nominally give the worker 9s. for working it, but if they get it in goods that will be about 4s.; and they get from 25s. to 30s. for it?'-Yes. The question was intended to apply to half square shawls and haps selling at from £1 to 30s., according to the verdancy of the animal that was buying it. It takes about sixteen hundreds to make a hap, and the worsted will be worth. from 2d. to 21/2d. It will take from sixteen to seventeen hundreds to make a half square fine shawl, and the worsted of it will be worth about 4d.; and these shawls are sold at from 18s. to 30s., according as customers can be got for them.