Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (45)

11,861. Have you found your trade hampered in any degree by the fishermen feeling under an obligation to deal for their supplies with the merchants by whom they are employed?-I have said already, that if the fishermen were paid oftener, more money would be circulated, and trade would be more divided; but it would all depend upon whether the fishermen were in debt or not, because we could not expect the fish-curers to pay those men who were in debt to them.

11,862. Have you found fishermen representing to you that they would purchase goods at your shop if they were not obliged to go where they could get credit?-I have occasionally heard such things here, but not very often.

11,863. Perhaps you have suspected that oftener than it has been expressed to you?-Yes.

11,864. A man does not always speak about his reasons for dealing with a particular merchant?-I don't think he does; but I don't think it fair if I pay ready money for such things as I buy, such as oysters and winkles, that others should not do the same to a greater extent than they do. I don't mean to say that they should cash for everything, but I think they should settle oftener.

11,865. You think the fishermen should be able to have a little money in their hands at times, instead of having it only once a year, in January?-I think so.

11,866. And even then, I suppose, they don't always have to get money?-I don't think they have.

11,867. Do you think that, upon the whole, your payments to fishermen are repaid to you?-Not at once. They may take the money home and come with it again, but it is not handed over to me at the time when the men get it. I have paid £40 in one week for shell-fish, without drawing more than £10.

11,868. Do your books show that?-No.

11,869. These were all cash transactions?-Yes.

11,870. But I suppose you may sometimes have paid £40 out in a week and drawn £30 of it back?-No. I never drew £30.

* Mr. Harcus afterwards sent a letter in which he said-

'Finding that exception has been taken by certain of my neighbours to a part of my evidence before the Truck Commission, I wish to say in explanation, that when the question was put whether I would approve in all cases of daily or weekly settlements, several difficulties occurred to my mind, and the want of proficiency in arithmetic among the fishermen was one of them, and not the only one, as is being attempted to be made to appear. I hope my words will bear out this idea. If my memory serves me right I gave as one difficulty the great distance between the fishing-ground and curer's headquarters; and I was having in consideration the extra expense that would be incurred if provision were made at out-stations for daily or weekly settlements, and the probability of an extra hand being required whose wages would have to come off the fisherman.

'With regard to my statements as to the proportion of Shetland fishermen who would be able to settle quickly by having pass-books, I was considering that it would be the duty of the men to divide their own shares, and to make all calculations ready for entering in their several pass-books, and that where there were boys forming part of a crew, and having fractional shares, very few indeed of the men could divide such shares. I think I also stated that I was speaking of those I had dealt with; but, of course, I could not be understood to speak of anything further than my experience went.

'I was also having in view that should a crew only require a few minutes to settle, yet if many crews came up at one time, as the tides and nature of the fishing would necessitate, some of them would have to wait several hours, which time could not possibly be spared, as during the busy part of the season the men can only allow themselves from four to five hours out of the twenty-four for sleep. Neither do I think that pass-books can expedite settlement much as some say. They can do little more than save the time required to head a printed form of account, say three or four minutes for each crew; but of course, are indispensable for other purposes.

'It will be seen from my evidence that the oftener curers settle with their men the better for my trade; and therefore, wishing to guard against having my mind influenced by selfish motive, I stated honestly what objections to daily or weekly settlements occurred to my mind at the moment.

'I trust it will be seen from my evidence as to my own practice that I approve of making settlements as often as practicable, in order to teach the people self-reliance and provident habits, and also to give them a chance to lay out their earnings to the best advantage.

' I have no wish to disparage this people. On the contrary, I think they deserve very great praise for being what they are under very unfavourable circumstances, and if this were the proper place I would have great pleasure in saying a good deal on this point; but though their general intelligence is perhaps superior to that of the same class in any other part of the country, I have not met with much proficiency in arithmetic among old and middle-aged men especially; and it is not difficult to see from the evidence the small amount of their experience in handling accounts, and the want of inducements to cultivate the art of book-keeping.'

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Rev. NICOL NICOLSON, examined.

11,871. You are a clergyman of the Independent Church in Scalloway?-I am. I have been twenty-two years here, first as missionary, and afterwards as pastor of a church.

11,872. Are your people mostly engaged in fishing?-Some of them are.

11,873. I suppose you are intimately acquainted with the condition of the fishing population of this district?-It appears to me by this time that I am not so well acquainted with it as I thought, because I have been hearing things coming out that I did not understand to be the case before the evidence was given.

11,874. Were you aware of the fact that very few fishermen received a large part of their earnings in money?-I understood that all of them who were out of debt got money from the merchants when they wanted it. I was once a fisherman myself, and that was the way in which I was dealt with. I did not think that in any of the shops here the men who had cash in the merchant's hands, and who were in necessity for it would not have got it.

11,875. Do you not think it would be better for the fishermen to be paid for their fish more frequently than once a year?-There are certain boats that deliver their fish weekly, and certainly it would be better for the men in them to be paid weekly; but there are a great many of the fishermen employed in smacks, from which they do not come ashore weekly, nor monthly.

11,876. Do you mean that the Faroe fishermen cannot be paid at short intervals?-I mean that those who fit out smacks and agree with men to fish on board of them for the season, cannot bring about a settlement with them until the end of the season.

11,877. But would it not be expedient for a man who is engaged in the home fishing, and who comes ashore every two or three days, to have his money paid to him at shorter intervals than those at which he now gets it, so that he might use it at his own discretion?-It has come under my observation that many crews who were ready to fish had no boat nor lines until they went to a merchant who would supply them with them, and then they made an agreement with that merchant to fish for him. They are in debt before they begin, and how can they be paid until the merchant sees his boat and lines clear?-Until they are cleared, he cannot afford to pay the men.

11,878. But in other trades, merchants frequently have to pay weekly wages to the men they employ, and take their risk of the market?-They take their risk of the market as it is; but if a merchant has due to him the whole value of the boat and lines, he cannot pay money down to the men and allow them to go away with it. He must keep it until he gets paid, or else he will be a poor man.

11,879. Would it not be within the power of the fishermen to purchase their own boats and lines?-They should do that, but I don't find them doing it. I know of only one man here who has done it.

11,880. Do you think it is impossible for the ordinary run of fishermen to make as much money as would pay for their boat and lines?-Most of the fishermen hereabout can never do it, owing to the way they live and the small fishings they make. They are not very fit to go out except in fine weather; and then they have to maintain themselves on shore in coarse weather.

11,881. How does the way in which they live prevent [Page 292] them from being able to purchase boats and lines?-They are poor men; they have no capital; and they are neither fed nor clothed in such a way as to enable them to carry on the fishing properly. If any man will give them credit for a boat and lines they just hang on with him, and never make money, or catch fish from which money can be made. I know a number of boats that seem to do very little all the year round. The crews are mostly old, worn-out men, and some of them are perhaps not very provident at home. I never saw them fed and clothed like regular fishermen; and you cannot expect them to go to sea properly.

11,882. What do you mean when you say that they are not fed and clothed like regular fishermen?-I mean like fishermen on the coast of Scotland, or in any other place.

11,883. Have you had some experience among fishermen on the coast of Scotland or elsewhere than here?-Not on the coast of Scotland, further than that I have gone among them, and spoken with them, and seen how they get on. I have seen them go off almost every day in winter, unless when there was a very extra breeze of wind.

11,884. Have they better boats in these places?-Yes; they have good boats, and they are well-clad, well-fed, healthy men; while there are men going on board the boats here who I believe, these other men would not take on board with them, owing to their want of strength.

11,885. You are not speaking of the ordinary run of Shetland fishermen just now?-I am speaking of the Scalloway men. I understand that in some of the islands, such as Burra, there are a class of very good men; but here there are no men staying ashore, except young boys and old men. All the rest go into the merchant service. A few go to Faroe, but only a few.

11,886. It is among these people who live in Scalloway that your experience chiefly lies?-Yes; it is to them I refer when I speak of the people about here.

11,887. So that when you are speaking about the advantages or disadvantages of a change, your remarks rather apply to the people of Scalloway than to the Shetland fishermen in general?-I say that most of the fishermen with whom I am acquainted in Scalloway, except one boat's crew, are such men as never do make earnings. They cannot get their boat and lines except on credit, and the merchants who give them out on credit require to keep what little fish they catch until these are paid, while the poor men are always asking for further advances on which to live. Therefore the men cannot have any money; and I don't blame the merchants, because the men still continue indebted to them.

11,888. Do you entertain that opinion with regard to other fishermen, strong young men, who are able to make better fishings than those you are now speaking of?-I believe there are such men in Burra, and perhaps even in Trondra, but I don't know any such men in Scalloway who are inclined to go to the fishing. Strong young men there go elsewhere.

11,889. Could these strong young men in Burra and Trondra purchase their own boats?-I think they could.

11,890. And that you consider would be an advantage to any fisherman?-Yes, it would be an advantage but I question whether many of the young men in Burra would confine themselves to boat fishing.

11,891. Do you think the system of being paid only once a year has the effect of producing improvident habits among the men?-I don't know. I was once a fisherman myself, and paid once a year, and I liked it well enough, for if I wanted money sooner I got it; but if I could do without it, I was pleased to get a larger sum at one time, and have it in reserve.

11,892. There is no doubt that, to many men, it may be an advantage to get a large sum paid at once; but, looking at the generality of the people that you live among, do you not think it would be better for them to have their money in their hand, paid to them every fortnight or every month? May they not, under the present system, run up larger accounts with the merchant who supplies them than they can afford to pay?-I am not aware that money is forthcoming at all from the fishing carried on in these boats. I have already said that I don't think the boats are fished so as to clear money, and consequently the men cannot have money. They are generally very poor and in debt.

11,893. Do you mean that almost all, the men in Scalloway are so?-All the fishermen that are in the boats, except one boat's crew that stands on a different footing from the others.

11,894. Do you ascribe that to the system which prevails here, or to any fault on the part of the men?-I can scarcely ascribe it to the fault of the men; I would say it was their misfortune. They are old and some of them infirm, and they cannot fish like stout, healthy men.

11,895. Have many cases come under your observation in which women who knit have been in distress for want of food in consequence of the way in which the hosiery is paid for?- I have not generally heard them blame the hosiery system for it exactly, but just the want of general employment.

11,896. I suppose most of the women here knit more or less?- Yes; I believe the greater part of them do.

11,897. And I suppose you are aware that knitting is almost invariably paid for in goods and not in money?-In listening to the examinations here to-day, I have heard conflicting accounts about that. One woman said they got no money, and another said she got as high as 6s. and 8s. at a time.

11,898. But even that woman admitted that the rule was to pay in goods, although she got money when she asked for it?-I believe it is the rule to pay in goods.

11,899. Have you had any experience as to the effect of that upon the female portion of the population?-I think most of them that I am acquainted with act very judiciously notwithstanding.

11,900. They are able to keep themselves notwithstanding that they do not get payment for their labour except in goods?-Of course they do keep themselves; but they are not so well off as they would require to be. If they could get part of the payment in cash, it would no doubt be a great advantage to them.

11,901. Do you think they would make a good use of the money if they had it?-There may be exceptions, but generally, I think, they are a provident people.

11,902. Do you think the women who are paid in goods for their hosiery sometimes get things which they do not need, simply because they are asked to take shop goods in payment instead of money?-I am not personally aware of that. I heard one woman say to-day that she sometimes had a good deal of things lying on hand; but I don't know of that being the case from my own experience.

11,903. The people have not complained to you with regard to it?-They have not. Some of them have said to me they would like to have money, while others have said they were quite well satisfied with goods.

11,904. Is there any other statement you can make with regard to the subject of this inquiry?-I am not aware that there is. I may say that I am in no way obliged either to the hosiery merchants or to the fishcurers. My living comes quite from another quarter; but I must say, when I am asked, that I believe we have honest men in both departments of business, both as buyers of hosiery and as curers of fish. I don't think any country will produce men of better principles, so far as my knowledge goes.

11,905. Does it follow from that that the system which they work is a good one?-No; I would not say that. I should like to see a better system brought in, if it could work; and I believe the merchants themselves would be glad to see a ready-money system introduced if it were possible; but the difficulty is to see how it can be got to act. We have hosiery merchants here, such as Mr. Harcus, who have tried it, and who have had to give it up, because they found it would not work.

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Scalloway, January 22, 1872, CHARLES NICHOLSON, examined.

11,906. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-I have been. I retired from business a year ago. My son, Gideon Nicholson, my daughter, Mrs. Tait, and another daughter's husband, David Dalgleish, succeeded me.

11,907. How long were you in business in Scalloway before you retired?-About 25 years.

11,908. Were you engaged in business both as a fishcurer and as a draper and general merchant?-Yes.

11,909. How many boats did you generally employ in the haaf fishing?-About ten or twelve boats for the ling fishing in the summer time. In some years the numbers differed.

11,910. Were these boats generally manned from Scalloway and the district round about?-No, there were very few of them from Scalloway. There were some from Maywick, parish of Bigton, about twelve miles south, and some from the island of Havera.

11,911. Had you a fishing station there?-The fish could not be cured there, as there was not a beach for that purpose, and they had all to be brought to Burra to be cured. For the last two or three years they have been brought to Scalloway, and cured on beaches here.

11,912. Were you tacksman of any properties in that district?- No, I never was tacksman; but the proprietor, Mr. Bruce of Simbister, held me accountable for the rents of the fishermen employed by me. He holds us accountable for them yet. It is in Messrs. Hay's hands just now, because Mr. Bruce does not act for himself.

11,913. In what way do you arrange about the rents of the fishermen whom you employ?-I have seen that when a fisherman was £10 or £20 in my debt I still considered that I had to pay his rent for him to the proprietor. I have paid the proprietor from £60 to £80 a year when the fishermen were perhaps due me £100 or £200.

11,914. Was that done under an obligation which had been undertaken by you to the proprietor?-No; I never undertook the thing, but I always did it for the poor men.

11,915. Was there a kind of understanding between you and the fishermen that you should advance the money for their rent?- There was not much understanding about it, but I always did it, and it is done at the present time.

11,916. Is that done for the accommodation of the proprietor, or for the accommodation of the men?-It accommodates both parties. Many of the men could not pay their rent themselves, and what were they to do if it was not paid for them?-Their corn and crop would have to be taken from them, and they would have had to come to me for more meal next summer. Therefore it was better for me to allow them to keep their crops and to pay their rents for them.

11,917. In what way is the payment made? Is it done by you handing the money to the men with which to go and pay their rent themselves, or do you put it down against them in their account, and send the proprietor a cheque for the sum?-Often before the time when it should be settled I pay it to Mr. Bruce or to Messrs. Hay.

11,918. Do you often pay the whole rent of the men in your employment, to Mr. Bruce, in one sum?-Yes, or rather to Mr. Bruce's factor. When the men had anything particular to say to their proprietor they would come along to me for the cash, and take it to him; but with regard to the body of the men, I never put them to that trouble. It was some trouble for them to go from Scalloway to Lerwick, and then to travel home age in.

11,919. Do you get separate receipts for all the men, and give them to them at settlement?-Yes.

11,920. Is the rent generally paid on their account before settlement?-Very often it is, or about that time. The term for the payment of their rent is at Martinmas, upon 11th November, and it is generally same time after that before we commence to settle with the fishermen. We must know what price we are to get in the market for the fish before we know what we are to give them, or how we are to settle with them.

11,921. What sum did you pay to the proprietor in that way during the last two or three years you were in business?-I should say that about £60, or from £60 to £70, would be about the usual thing.

11,922. Would the amount of each man's rent be about £4 or £5?-Yes, perhaps some higher, and some a little lower.

11,923. Then perhaps twelve or fifteen men would have their rents paid in that way?-Yes.

11,924. But that would only be a portion of the men you were employing?-Yes.

11,925. If you had ten or twelve boats, you would have fifty or sixty men employed in them?-No. Some of them are small boats that fish close to the shore, with perhaps three men in them, or two men and two boys.

11,926. Then you might employ perhaps thirty men and boys altogether?-Yes.

11,927. Would one half of these men not be tenants at all?-Most of them were tenants of Mr. Bruce.

11,928. Were they under any obligation to fish for you?-No.

11,929. Could they have engaged with any other person if they had liked?-Yes.

11,930. Have you objected to pay the rent for any one of these men when he was considerably in your debt?-No. If I paid for one, I paid for all. I have paid rent for a man who was between £20 and £30 in my debt.

11,931. Does the landlord give you any return for these advances which you make to him?-No.

11,932. Is it not a considerable advantage to him to have his rent made secure in that way?-There is no doubt about it.

11,933. But don't you get anything from him even in the shape of a favour?-No; I never asked it, and never got it.

11,934. Have you any fishing station on Mr. Bruce's property?- No. The fishermen on the island of Havera cure their fish in the island, and that is on his property, but I have no concern with anything else.

11,935. Do they cure their fish themselves, and sell them to you?-They cure them on the island, and send them to Scalloway, and I sell them for them.

11,936. Have they an arrangement peculiar to themselves about their fish?-No, there is no peculiar arrangement. Their fish have always been under their own command, and I could not sell them without their consent, and I have lost considerably by that.

11,937. In selling their fish do you act as their agent?-Yes.

11,938. Do you charge a commission for that?-I never had so much good sense as to ask a commission; I did it for nothing.

11,939. You sold them for them, and I suppose they took a quantity of goods from you when they wanted them?-Yes. They took lines and hooks, and bread and clothes, and such things as they required.

11,940. Did they get all their supplies from you?-I think they got the most part of them from me.

11,941. How many people live at Havera?-I think there are four families, but I am not sure.

11,942. Do the other people on Mr. Bruce's estate who fish for you, and whose rent you pay, deal entirely in your shop for their supplies?-I think the most part of them do.

11,943. Is that one reason why you pay their rents for them?-I suppose so.

11,944. Do you find that these men are generally in your debt at settlement?-Only some of them. There are some of the men who have always plenty of money to get, but there are others who have commonly been behind.

11,945. Are more than one half of them commonly behind?-No. There are more than one half of them who always have money to get.

11,946. Still there are some of them who are usually a good bit behind?-Yes; but I hope they will get and be able to pay it off. Some of them are men whose [Page 294] sons are willing now to pay for their fathers, and it is a great matter to see that.

11,947. The debts you refer to have been incurred for supplies of hooks and lines, and meal and other things required for the family?-Yes; chiefly for meal. Of course, they get hooks and lines also but they require a great deal of bread and meal.

11,948. Do those men who fish for you own their own boats, or do the boats belong to you?-The boats are all their own.

11,949. Are you not a boat-owner?-Not with these men.

11,950. Have you some boats here?-Yes; I had too many, and got very little profit from them.

11,951. The boats you had at Scalloway were hired out by you?- Yes; it got the name of hire, but I never received it. The nominal hire is 5s. per man. If it carries three men it is 15s. and if four men, £1. That is for three or four months in the year.

11,952. These are small boats?-Yes.

11,953. Is that the kind of boat that is commonly in use in Scalloway?-Yes.

11,954. Are there none of the six-oared boats in use here?-There are none in use here just now. Even in summer it is the small boats that are used here. They fish near the shore and the small boats are more handy than the big ones.

11,955. Then there is no haaf fishing from Scalloway?-No.

11,956. Are all the fish that you cure, the produce of that inshore fishing?-No; I have vessels that go to Faroe.

11,957. But you have no deep-sea fishing for ling?-No. I should not say that I never get the hire, because in some few cases I have got a little for it.

11,958. Then is it the case that you must look to the profit you make from the fish for the only remuneration you get for the use of these boats?-It would have been better for me if I had bought few or no fish in Scalloway, because the people here cannot get so much as will keep them alive. As has already been stated, the men in Scalloway are old men, who are not able to fish much.

11,959. How many tons of fish did you sell from that part of your fishing last year?-I am not able to answer that exactly just now, but there are commonly from 20 to 25 tons that come from Dunrossness.

11,960. And as much from Scalloway?-No; all that are got here is a mere trifle, and then we buy some in winter and spring from different quarters.

11,961. Do you also buy some in summer from other places too?- A few lots, not much.

11,962. Do the Burra men come and sell you a few lots in summer?-As little as possible.

11,963. Do you not like to buy from them?-I don't like to see men leaving their masters. My men might do the same.

11,964. I suppose your men do sell to other people's factors occasionally?-I don't think there are many men among them who don't do that.

11,965. Is it when they want a little ready money that they do that?-They can get it from me when they ask for it.

11,966. Perhaps, if a man is a little in your debt, he will not care to come and ask you for ready money?-There are men who are due me £5 and £10 and £15, and I just pay him for his fish over the counter when he brings them.

11,967. That is for the winter and spring fishing?-Yes. I would be happy if he could make as much from his fish as would keep him alive, but the worst of it is that these men cannot do that.

11,968. When you pay them money over the counter for their fish, do they generally pay some of it over the counter for supplies?- Yes; if they can buy articles as cheap from me as from another, they always do that. I have seldom seen them do anything else; but if they want a little money for any particular purpose, they can get it for that purpose.

11,969. They may need it for rent, and they will perhaps take it away to pay to their landlord?-That is not very often the case. If they have a house from another proprietor I very often have to pay the rent for them.

11,970. Do you lay out a good deal of money in that way?-Rather too much.

11,971. Do you sometimes pay other debts that are due by the men as well as their rent?-I suppose most of their debts are with me, except their rents.

11,972. Therefore most of their money matters are transacted through you?-I think so.

11,973. In fact, you are a sort of banker for the place?-I don't know that; it is very little that I get to bank.

11,974. When a man is well to do and has a balance to receive, does he sometimes leave it in your hands?-If they thought I was ill off for money they would do that. One year I lost about £200 on the price of ling, and rather than see me ill off for money one and another of them who had money came and offered it to me.

11,975. Do you mean that they left what was due to them on their fishing in your hands?-Yes; and they offered me besides money which they had laid up in former years, if it could do me any good and keep me going on.

11,976. Do you not think the men would be much wiser to take their own money and spend it as they wanted? Would they not understand the value of the money better in that way, and take better care of it?-They take their money at the end of every season.

11,977. But in the meantime they have spent perhaps three-fourths or four-fifths of all their earnings?-Of course they have been lifting their lines and hooks and everything of that sort, but they have never wanted money when they asked for it, even although they had nothing in my hands. Sometimes they asked for it to buy a cow or some particular thing, and they sometimes got as much from me as £4 or £5.

11,978. But you don't give it to them unless they want something particular, and mention to you what it is?-No.

11,979. Do you think it is a good system for men to leave all their affairs in your hands?-I don't know; I did not want them to do so unless they liked.

11,980. Would not the merchant require to be a very honest man when he is so much trusted?-He would indeed.

11,981. And a man who was disposed to deceive the fishermen who trusted him would have very ample opportunities to do so?- He would.

11,982. I suppose that has been done in a few exceptional cases in Shetland?-No doubt it has.

11,983. Do you think a fisherman who lives under that system is an independent person?-A man who has plenty of money to serve his purpose is as independent a man, or he should be, as any.

11,984. Do you think the fishermen have plenty of money to serve their purposes?-Not in general; but there are a few who have it.

11,985. Do you think they might all have it?-I don't think so.

11,986. Is that owing to bad seasons, or owing to a bad system, or what?-It is sometimes owing to all these things together.

11,987. I suppose all the men you employ, and some others besides, keep accounts in your books for the supplies which they require for their families and for the fishing?-Yes.

11,988. Each man has a ledger account?-Yes.

11,989. And although you are out of the business, you are still intimately acquainted with the way in which it is conducted?- Yes.

11,990. Do you think that one half of the men at this settlement have a balance to get in money?-I think most of the ling fishermen had, but the cod fishermen were much more in debt.

11,991. You had not many ling fishermen?-No, only a few boats.

11,992. It is the Dunrossness men you speak of as the ling fishermen?-Yes.

11,993. The Scalloway men are not ling fishermen?-No. I think there was only one boat that went from Scalloway.

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11,994. Is the business still carried on in your name?-No; it is carried on in the name of Nicholson & Co.

11,995. Have you any interest in it at all?-No.

11,996. It is practically the same business, however, which you carried on?-Yes.

11,997. When you carried on business, were you in the practice of buying hosiery?-Very little. I never took it at all, except when the poor people were starving and in want of bread. They sometimes came to me and said they wanted bread, and could not get it in Lerwick, and I gave it to them.

11,998. Have you taken the goods they have got for their hosiery in Lerwick and given them provisions instead?-Not very often, but I have done that out of compassion.

11,999. Have you sometimes given them money in that way?-I would not have seen them at a loss for a shilling if they wanted it for any particular purpose.

12,000. Have you sometimes taken their lines from them which they got from the Lerwick merchants?-No; I don't remember doing that.

12,001. Have you been asked to do that sometimes?-I don't think so.

12,002. Have you not been asked to give them provisions for lines?-No.

12,003 Was it mostly cotton and soft goods or tea that you took from them?-It was cotton and soft goods, not tea. They had a chance of getting a little meal and potatoes in country places for their tea, and they did not require to come to me with it.

12,004. What kind of price did you allow them for these things?- I allowed them the same price as I sold such articles at in my own shop; but they had paid a higher price for them in Lerwick. When they brought the goods to me, I saw they were not equal to mine at the same price.

12,005. So that you generally buy these cottons at a lower price than they have been charged at in Lerwick, but at the same price that you were in the habit of selling them for here?-Yes.

12,006. The knitters therefore would be losers nominally by the bargain?-Yes; but it was not much that they brought to me in that way-it was hardly worth mentioning.

12,007. What would be the difference in price on a yard of cotton?-Perhaps 1d.

12,008. Did you find that there was always that difference?-I don't exactly remember; but I remember sometimes looking at the articles, and seeing that they were inferior to mine at the same price. That was very easily seen.

12,009. Do the women sometimes object to give you the goods at a lower price than they had paid for them?-No. It was through necessity they came to me with them, and they always felt very grateful that they could get bread in exchange.

12,010. Has that system gone on at times until now?-Yes, at times.

12,011. You have some vessels employed in the Faroe fishing?- Yes, there are two.

12,012. Are these still in your hands, or have you handed them over to the company?-I have handed them over to the company, as agents.

12,013. But they are still your property?-Yes; at least they are partly mine. There are some other people who have shares in them.

12,014. Do the men who are employed in these Faroe vessels generally belong to Scalloway and the neighbourhood?-No; only a few of them. The others come from different parts of the country; some from as far west as Sandness, and others from as far north as Delting, and so on.

12,015. Have these men accounts opened in your shop for their outfits?-Yes.

12,016. And also for supplies to their families?-The young men don't require supplies.

12,017. But if there are any of them married men, they will have accounts, and their families get supplies from the company's shop during their absence?-Yes.

12,018. Then there is a settlement with them at the end of the season?-Yes. As soon as we can know what the fish are to bring in the market there is settlement made.

12,019. Have you a written agreement with these men?-Yes; it is written on stamped paper and each man signs it.

12,020. Have you made your agreements for 1872?-They are written and are being filled up now.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, DAVID DALGLEISH, examined.

12,021. You are now a partner of the firm of Nicholson & Co., Scalloway?-I am.

12,022. You have been present and heard the evidence of Mr. Charles Nicholson?-Yes.

12,023. Have you anything to add to it, or anything additional to suggest?-No. He has had long experience in the business, and I have had very little. I have only been in it twelve months, since Mr. Nicholson retired.

12,024. You have been shown certain returns with regard both to the home and Faroe fishing, which you have been asked to fill up and return to me. You will do so at your earliest convenience, with the assistance of Mr. Nicholson if necessary?-Yes.

12,025. I see a number of fishermen present; if there are any of them who wish to make any statement to me I shall be glad to hear them. [No answer.] If no one wishes to give any further evidence, I adjourn the sittings at this place until further notice.

<Adjourned>.

LERWICK: WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 24, 1872

<Present>-Mr Guthrie.

GEORGE GEORGESON, examined.

12,026. You are a merchant at Bayhall, in the parish of Walls?-I am.

12,027. How long have you been in business there?-I have been in business in Walls for about twenty-seven years. My place of business is in the village in the centre of the parish.

12,028. Are your customers principally of the class of fishermen and tenants?-They are mostly fishermen and farmers. The greater part of my business is in ready money transactions.

12,029. Are there some farmers there who do not go to the fishing?-There are some small crofters, but they all go to the fishing. These parties are not confined to me in the business they do. They can go where they choose. I supply them, and they pay me once a year.

12,030. Are you engaged in the fish-curing business yourself to any extent?-I do not cure fish now. At one time, about twenty or twenty-five years ago, I cured fish, and had some small vessels, but I don't do anything in that way now at all.

12,031. You say your transactions are mostly for ready money?- Yes, mostly.

[Page 296]

12,032. But I suppose you have some accounts when you have a customer that you can trust?-Yes.

12,033. And with him, as you said, you settle every year?-Yes.

12,034. Are there many of these accounts in your business?- There may be some hundreds of them; I cannot say how many.

12,035. Does not every one of your customers open an account in that way?-Not every one; perhaps not above one-third of them.

12,036. You have an annual settlement with them?-When we get an annual settlement, we consider that to be very good. Sometimes it does not come up to that; but we would like it every three months if possible.

12,037. Are many of your transactions settled by means of barter?-Not many.

12,038. In what way is that system of barter carried on with you? Is it by the purchase of eggs and other produce?-Yes; eggs are looked upon as money. We make no difference upon the price of our goods whether they are paid for in eggs or money. With regard to hosiery, our trade is a mere nothing. I think would cover all that I buy in the year.

12,039. Do you pay for hosiery in cash at all?-No.

12,040. I suppose the system that prevails with you is very much the same as that which exists in Lerwick?-It is not the same as in that town at all. The difference is, that we do not manufacture goods to order. We merely buy them when they are offered to us, if they please us. I don't think there is any other difference.

12,041. Is the price you fix for the hosiery generally such as to allow you a profit upon the sale of it?-It is not; sometimes we really pay more for it than we get.

12,042. But do you sometimes look for a profit upon it?-If we look for a profit we don't get it out of the hosiery. If we have a profit, it must be upon the goods that are given in exchange for it, because we often sell hosiery below its value, according to its value here.

12,043. But I suppose you sell it below its real value only in consequence of some change in the market, or some miscalculation?-Perhaps that is the case; but, in point of fact, we don't buy hosiery as a trade. We are forced to buy it. We don't care for that trade at all, because we always lose by it.

12,044. In fixing the price to be given for the hosiery goods, don't you endeavour to make it at such a figure as will at least keep you safe, and possibly allow you a small profit on the hosiery itself?-I cannot say that we do. We are forced to take the hosiery as a matter of business. We don't deal in that at all, so to speak.

12,045. But don't you endeavour to fix the price at such a figure as would allow you a profit?-Of course we do, so far as we can; but in many cases we sell the hosiery goods below what we paid for them.

12,046. Do you sell them in Lerwick, or send them south?-We send them to Scotland. We don't sell them in Lerwick at all.

12,047. In what other departments of your business does a barter system prevail?-I may say that, except in eggs and hosiery, our trade is principally for cash and we deal in barter for eggs because we look upon them as being the same as money.

12,048. Do you give the full price for eggs?-Yes.

12,049. Do you pay for them principally in tea?-In anything the people want. It is all the same to us. If they want cash, and we pay a few shillings in cash, then we pay a halfpenny less per dozen for the eggs; but that is all the difference we make otherwise we treat them the same as cash.

12,050. Do you purchase a considerable quantity of eggs in that way?-I cannot state the amount exactly.

12,051. Do you send a box south by every steamer?-Yes, and sometimes more than that in the season. Perhaps we send a couple of boxes in the season when they are being brought in.

12,052. Do you send 10 or 20 dozen?-More than that. We can put, perhaps, from 70 to 100 dozen in a box, and we may have two such boxes a week in the season.

12,053. And these, as a rule, are all paid for in goods?-Yes.

12,054. At what time of the year do you generally get your accounts settled?-The fishermen settle their accounts generally about November or December.

12,055. Is that after having settled with the fishcurers?-Yes. I supply the men with what they want through the season until that time, and then they settle. Most of the men who deal with me cure their own fish, and sell them the best way they can.

12,056. Is it a common thing in your district for the fishermen to cure their own fish?-Yes; they have liberty to do that.

12,057. To whom are the sales of these fish made?-They sell them anywhere they choose. Sometimes they send them south, but principally they sell them to Garriock & Co. The men are rather confined in that way. They don't have exactly their free will to sell them, unless merely a little.

12,058. Do you mean that they have not their free will to sell their fish where they like?-They have that way; but where a proprietor is dealing in fish, the men are generally expected to sell to him.

12,059. Are Messrs. Garriock & Co. factors for some of the proprietors there?-Yes. They are factors for the estate of Dr. Scott of Melby.

12,060. Do the men look upon themselves as being bound?-They are not really bound. They have a little liberty.

12,061. But they think they ought to sell their fish to Garriock & Co. rather than to another?-Yes, that is what is understood, but they are not really bound.

12,062. In what way have you observed that feeling among the men, that they ought to sell to Garriock & Co.? Do they sometimes speak of it to you?-If Garriock & Co. offered them the same price as other merchants, they consider they ought to give them the preference; that is the only way in which I have seen it.

12,063. Would they sell to Garriock & Co. if they were offered a less price?-I don't think they would.

12,064. They would be independent enough not to agree to that?- I think so. But there is a confusion there. I could not enter into explanations upon that point fully.

12,065. Why?-Because I don't think it is necessary.

12,066. But that is just the very point I want to know about. What have you to say with regard to it?-I know that sometimes, if I were offering the same price as Garriock & Co., I would not get the fish from the men.

12,067. Have you tried that recently?-I have.

12,068. Were you willing to resume the business of buying fish?- Certainly.

12,069. But the competition of Garriock & Co. was too much for you?-Not the competition, because I offered the same price, and perhaps even more, and could not get them.

12,070. Do you mean that Garriock & Co. had such an advantage over you, from their position as factors and proprietors in the district, that you could not venture to compete with them?-Yes, I ventured, and I could not get the fish.

12,071. Was that the reason why you gave up the fish-buying originally?-No, that was not the reason. I had some small vessels, and they were unsuccessful, and I just dropped out from the business.

12,072. But you think that the buying of the fish from the fishermen might be more remunerative lately than it was before?-I could not say about that; but the fishermen had the liberty to cure their own fish if they had liked, and then they sold them dry.

12,073. Was it dry fish that you proposed to purchase?-Yes. It was dry fish that I made the offer to buy, but we would not get them even if we had given the same price as Garriock & Co., or more.

12,074. How long is it since you offered to buy the dry fish?- Perhaps 4 or 5 years ago.

12,075. In what way did you make your intention known: did you offer to certain fishermen at that time [Page 297] to take their fish?-Yes. I have sometimes offered them to buy their fish, but I never could get them to sell them to me.

12,075. [sic] Do you remember any particular men to whom you made that offer?-I could not mention any particular man; but I have offered to several crews to buy their fish, and they would not sell them.

12,076. Do you remember what skippers you offered to?-If it is necessary to give names, I would rather do so in private. [Hands in the name of one skipper and crew.]

12,077. Do you remember any others?-I might mention several, but I don't think it is necessary.

12,078. What answers did they give to your offer?-I sometimes offered the currency, or above the currency, but that did not matter: I could not get their fish.

12,079. Did they decline to entertain your offer?-Yes.

12,080. What did they say was their reason?-They considered themselves as a sort of tied down to sell to one; but I know they were not tied down, and that they could have sold their fish to any one they chose.

12,081. But they did say to you that they were tied down?-They did.

12,082. Was it through a fear of disobliging the factor that they refused to sell their fish?-I suppose so. Perhaps they thought that if they required a favour again, they might not get it so easily if they made a change.

12,083. If the favour they expected was in the way of an advance, would they not have got that from you?-Yes, at any time, either in money or in goods.

12,084. What other favour could they expect from the factor?- From the fact of Messrs. Garriock & Co. being factors, they had more power than I had with regard to the men.

12,085. Did the men express any fear of being turned out of their holdings?-They did not.

12,086. But that may have been in their minds?-Perhaps it might.

12,087. Did you ever hear of any influence being used by Garriock & Co. to secure the fish of these men or of other men?-I cannot say that they used any undue influence; but, of course, it was an understood thing that they had the first chance, and the only chance of them. Where Messrs. Garriock cure the fish, of course they have the fish to themselves; but where they do not cure them, it is considered that they shall have the first chance of buying the fish.

12,088. Where they cure, of course, there is an engagement with the men at the beginning of the season?-No. That was the case about 30 years ago but it is not so now.

12,089. But in the ling fishing the crews are all engaged in the beginning of the season?-Yes; but there is no price fixed at the beginning of the season. About 30 years ago that was the case and there was some more competition.

12,090. Was it the case 30 years ago that the price was fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes, there was a price fixed, and sometimes agreements were written on paper for the ling fishing, but that practice fell away. Sometimes the fishermen got above the real value of the fish under that system.

12,091. Do you know whether that system existed only in your part of the island?-No, it existed all over Shetland more or less unless where the factors had control over the fishermen. At that time every man who had his freedom could sell his fish to the best bidder.