Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (21)

5368. Then your fish would be worth about £26 altogether: was that the value of your take of fish last year?-No; my fish did not come to that. I think my sixth share came to about £18; but then, as I owned boat of my own, and had the expense of her to pay I was paid a little more than the others, so that I might have more than £18 to get.

5369. How do you square up your account at the shop and your account for fish at the end of the year?-At the end of the year I may have more things put into Mr. Adie's hands than my fishing. For instance last year I had that cow and stot, and perhaps some other things, and these and my fishing are all put together to my credit. Then my out-takes and things I have been requiring from Mr. Adie are put too, and the amount they come to is stated to me.

5370. Is that read over to you, or have you got it [Page 133] already in your pass-book?-Sometimes I have a passbook, and sometimes I don't require one. Sometimes I don't fash with it; that is the truth.

5371. Why is that?-I thought there was very little need for it, because Mr. Adie and I never disputed about these things, and when I had a pass-book I was not very particular about keeping it.

5372. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the season if you want it?-I never was refused it when I asked for it.

5373. Is there generally something due to you for fish at the end of the season?-Sometimes I have been due Mr. Adie, and sometimes I have had a little in his hand; but, taking one time with another, we are generally square, and I am happy to say we are square in the meantime.

5374. Is there anything you think could be mended in that way of settling your accounts?-I don't know, I am sure.

5375. Was there anything particular you came here to-day to say about it?-There is one thing I would say, that we fishermen never know what we are to have when we commence our fishing. We work away as if we were blind. We don't know what the price is to be until the time of settlement, and then we must just take what currency is given, and we can get no further, and can make no more for ourselves.

5376. Do you think you could make any better arrangement than that?-I don't know, I am sure.

5377. Do you think you would be better off if you made a bargain for a fixed price to be paid to you at the delivery of your fish?-I might be better off with that in one season, and I might be worse off in others; but if I made my bargain for that, I could not grumble, although the fish could be paid better. At settlement I must stand by my bargain. Then, if the price of fish was less, the merchant might lose; so that I don't know which way would be best.

5378. But in that way you would know what you were working for?-Yes; and I would have no reason to grumble if I had made a bargain, even although I could have made a better thing of it in another way.

5379. Have you ever been asked to make a bargain of that kind?- No.

5380. Have you ever proposed it yourself?-I have turned it over, and said that it was a hard thing for a poor fisherman like me to fish and not know what I was fishing for, when other seamen knew what they were working for; but I never came to any conclusion about it.

5381. Do you think, if you were paid in that way in the course of the season as the fishing went on, you could make a better use of your money by purchasing your goods at other places than Mr. Adie's shop?-I could not say much about that.

5382. Could you buy your goods as well and as cheaply nearer home?-I don't think it, because the merchants appear to be all much about the same in our neighbourhood. They have all one price for their articles.

5353. Are the merchants about you all engaged in the fishing business as well as in the shop business?-Not all of them; but some of them are. Mr. Pole engaged in it; he is the principal merchant near us.

5384. Are there some of them who are not engaged the fishing business at all?-There is Robert Murray at Swinister; he is not much engaged in it. His shop about half a mile from where I live.

5385. Would you be as well served there, and as cheaply, as you are at Mr. Adie's and at Mr. Pole's?-I don't think would be any better.

5386. Would it be any advantage to you to have your money at your own command?-I might think so. A man is always glad to have some money to lay his hands upon.

5387. In answering my question in that way, do you mean to say that your money is not at your own disposal?-What I have to get when I settle I get without a word, and it is at my own disposal; but I would not like to take money from a man when I was due him anything. I would like always to pay my debts; and what I had over when I would know was my own, and I would make the best of it that I could.

5388. Does that mean that what money you get before settlement is not your own, and is not at your own disposal?-When I was standing in need of anything and wanted a little money, which I did not have myself, I could go to Mr. Adie when I was fishing for him, and ask him for £1 or £2, and he would give it to me, and then when I settled I would pay it back to him.

5389. That is to say, it would be charged against you at settlement?-Yes.

5390. But do you mean to say that if you get £1 or £2 in that way, you would not be at liberty to spend it as you pleased, and to buy goods with it at any shop you liked?-No. I could go where I liked with it, if I got it from him, because, of course, I would pay it back to him again, and he would not care what use I made of it.

5391. Would you rather have more cash advanced to you during the season than you have in an ordinary way at present, and not get all your goods at Voe?-I could not exactly say about that; I might. If I was paying down cash for the goods, I might get them a little cheaper than by marking them down.

5392. Would you get them cheaper for cash at Mr. Adie's own shop at Voe?-Well, money is a thing that every person is always glad to get hold of; and he might give me 1d. or 2d. down upon an article for ready money, which I would not get if he were to mark it down in his book.

5393. Do you know that you get a discount of 5 per cent. there for cash?-I have got it before. I have got 5 per cent. discount when I settled.

5394. Was that on goods that were entered in your account?-Yes; I have got that. I am not perfectly sure if I will get it this year, but I know that I have got it before.

5395. If you get that when you settle at the end of the year, would you get anything more if you were to pay in cash?-I am not able to say.

5396. You just think you would like to have your money in your hand as you deliver your fish: is that the notion you have?-I don't know whether it would be better to get it in my hand then, or to wait until I got it all at once at the conclusion.

5397. Are there some advantages in both ways of dealing?-I believe there are.

5398. Perhaps you would spend it too fast if you had it in your own hands?-I don't know about that. I would not like to spend it if I had it, unless it was for something that I really required to spend it on.

5399. Are you under any obligation to go to Mr. Adie's shop for the goods you want in the course of the year?-None that I am aware of.

5400. You have never been told it of course; but is it a great deal more convenient for you to go there than to deal at another shop?-No; it is not more convenient. I could go to it shop somewhat nearer; but still I don't think I would be any better; and as it has always been my custom to go there, I just continue to go.

5401. Is it only because it is your custom to go, or is it because you are in the way of delivering your fish to Mr. Adie, that you go to his store?-Mr. Adie has been very obliging to me many times by helping me when I could not help myself, and therefore I always felt a warm heart towards him, and went to his store.

5402. But is it the way with fishermen here, that they got to the shop of the man that they sell their fish to?-I am not able to speak to that except for myself.

5403. Do you not know what your neighbours do? It depends on the circumstances that my neighbours are in. If they are indebted to the man they are fishing to, of course they will go to that man, and perhaps have very little to go to him with.

5404. Are those neighbours of yours who are so indebted also likely to engage to fish for the same merchant during the following season?-Yes. When man is short of money, and has not enough with [Page 134] which to pay his land rent, he may go to the man he is fishing to, and he will help him with what he requires, but the understanding in that case is that he will serve him at the fishing for the rising year. That is generally the way it is done.

5405. Do you mean that when a man gets advances at a merchant's shop, it is understood that he must fish to him in the coming year?-Yes; that is generally understood.

5406. Have you had to do that yourself?-No; I have never been so hard up as that in my time.

5407. You have never been behind at the settlement?-Not very often. Sometimes I have been, and I have got advances from Mr. Adie without a word; but I was intending to fish for him in the coming year before I asked them.

5408. And you would make as good a bargain with him as with any other fishmaster?-I have always thought so.

5409. So that you did not fish to him because you were under any compulsion?-No.

5410. Were you under any obligation to do it because you were in his debt?-No. I have never been so deep in his debt but what, if I had it to do, I could have made some effort to get myself clear.

5411. Therefore the answer you previously gave only meant that there might be some men among your neighbours so far in debt that they were obliged to fish to a particular merchant?-Yes; when he supplied them with goods.

5412. Do you think there are many of those men among your neighbours?-I have no doubt there are more that way than there are the other way.

5413. Do you think that arises from the length of time that passes before you can get your money, or is there anything else you can think of that might mend that state of matters?-I cannot say.

5414. Is there anything else you want to tell me about the way in which dealings are carried on here?-No.

5415. You know you are on your oath, and you bound to speak the truth, and nobody can hurt you for anything you say to-day?-I trust that I shall say nothing but the truth, so far as I know.

5416. From whom do you hold your land and house?-From Mr. Bell of Lunna.

5417. Are you not bound by the terms of your lease to fish for any particular person?-No; he did not bind me to do that. I got liberty to serve myself and to fish for any one I pleased when I took the land from him; only if I went to Skerries I would have had to fish for John Robertson, who had a tack of Mr. Bell's land; but if I fished in any other way, he did not stop me from fishing for any person.

5418. But if you went to Skerries, and fished there during the summer, you would be bound by your bargain to fish for Mr. Robertson?-Yes.

5419. How do you know that that is an obligation upon you?-I was told so by the proprietor when I took the land.

5420. Was that told you by Mr. Bell himself?-Yes.

5421. Did he tell you at the same time, that if you fished elsewhere than at Skerries, you were at perfect liberty to fish for any one you liked?-Yes. He told me I was not bound to fish for Mr Robertson unless I fished at Skerries; but that if I fished at Skerries I must fish for him.

5422. Are there people in your neighbourhood who go to fish at Skerries?-There is one boat which generally fishes there.

5423. But they might go elsewhere if they chose?-I cannot say for that.

5424. Do you know of any person who has been threatened or turned off his ground on the estate of Lunna in your neighbourhood for refusing to fish to a particular person?-I do not.

5425. Are the fishermen there all free?-About us they are, so far as I know: that is about Firth, a mile from Mossbank. There are some of Mr. Bell's tenants who have fished along with me, and there was nothing said to them any more than to me because they did not fish at Skerries.

Brae, January 10, 1872, ANDREW TULLOCH, examined.

5426. Where do you live?-In a town called Brough, near Mossbank.

5427. Whom do you fish for?-I have been fishing for myself for two years, and my fish have been sold to Mr. Leask and delivered at Lerwick.

5428. Do you cure for yourself?-Yes; I get a man to cure my fish.

5429. Do you engage a man to cure the whole fish of your boat's crew?-Yes; it is a small boat. There are three men and two boys in the crew.

5430. Do you think you make more of your fish in that way than if you delivered them green to a fishcurer?-I think so.

5431. Does Mr. Leask buy them from you cured?-Yes.

5432. He also cures fish himself?-Yes.

5433. When is the price fixed for your fish?-I think it was on 1st November last that we were paid.

5434. You take all your fish to Lerwick at once, once a year, and you get your money paid to you at the time?-Yes.

5435. Is it paid to you in cash?-Yes.

5436. Do you deal at any shop of Mr. Leask's?-No. I commonly deal at Mossbank, at Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop.

5437. Do you deal for cash?-Yes.

5438. You pay ready money for what you get?-Yes. Sometimes I take things on credit too; but I am not compelled to do it. I need not do it unless I choose.

5439. Then you are perfectly free to fish for anybody you like, or for yourself if you prefer it?-Yes; and I think it is the best way to fish for myself.

5440. Is that a common thing in your neighbourhood?-It is not.

5441. Why don't the men in your neighbourhood adopt that system if it is the best way?-I don't know. I think for myself, and I suppose other people do the same.

5442. On whose ground are you?-I am on ground belonging to the estate of Busta.

5443. Are the fishermen on the Busta estate all free?-Yes.

5444. There is no tacksman over them, but the fishermen as a rule fish to anybody they like?-I suppose they do; at least, so far as I know, that is the case.

5445. In what way do you think you make more of the fish by curing them yourself than by selling them green?-When I cure them or get them cured for myself, and sell them, I think I can get the turn upon them; and I get cash, which enables me to buy my goods where I can get them cheapest.

5446. Do you get goods cheaper at the shop at Mossbank by paying cash than if you were getting them on credit?-No.

5447. Do you pay the same price for goods there in cash as if they were to be settled for at the end of the year?-Yes.

5448. Have you tried both ways?-Yes.

5449. How long is it since you began to cure your own fish?-It is only two years ago.

5450. How much did you make during the last two years for each man's share?-For the last year we had £8, 13s. each.

5451. Do you think that was more than the average of men who fished for other people?-Yes; taking the price of green fish, I think it was.

5452. Do you know what any of your neighbours got for their green fish?-They got 8s. for ling, and 6s. 6d. for cod and tusk. These were the prices I heard.

5453. Were you fishing during the whole season?-Yes.

5454. How many cwts. of cured fish did you take to Mr. Leask?-I think we had thirty odd cwt. of cured fish; one part of that was ling, and one part was tusk and cod. We had about nineteen cwt. of ling and we sold them at £23.

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5455. When you say that the price for ling is 8s. a cwt., that is the price for green ling?-Yes.

5456. And 21/4 -cwt. of green ling make one cwt. dry?-Yes; that is what the fish-curers calculate upon.

5457. So that nineteen cwt. of cured fish would have been something less than forty-three cwt. green, and you got £23 for that?-Yes.

5458. But from that price you must allow something for the expense of curing?-Yes; it would be from £2 to £2, 10s. per ton for curing.

5459. So that you made some profit by selling your fish in that way?-Yes.

5460. Do you think that, when you cure for yourself, you have any benefit by having the money in your hands to buy goods with where you please?-I think so.

5461. Do you buy cheaper when you have the money in your hands?-Yes; we can buy cheaper in Lerwick than we can do elsewhere.

5462. Do you often buy things at Lerwick?-Some times I do.

5463. I thought you said you bought generally at Mossbank?- Some things I buy at Mossbank; but I buy at several places.

5464. If you were fishing for a particular fish-merchant, would you buy more at his shop than you do when you are fishing for yourself?-That is the general way.

5465. What is the reason for that?-Because a great many of the men have not money to go anywhere else.

5466. And therefore they are induced to go where they can get credit?-Yes.

5467. You think that is not such a good way of doing as curing for yourself, and having the money in your own hands?-It is not; but, at the same time, even when I was fishing to a particular fish-curer, I endeavoured to keep my credit; and if I had asked money from him to go on with, I would have got money as well as goods.

5468. It would not have been refused; but I suppose you would have got more advanced to you in goods than in money?-I could not say that.

5469. Suppose that in July, about the middle of the season, when about half of your fish had been caught, you wanted supplies: would you generally be allowed in the fish-merchant's shop to get any quantity of goods you liked on credit?-Yes.

5470. And would you at that time be advanced any amount of money that you chose to ask?-Yes; on a moderate scale. I could get money as well as goods.

5471. Suppose you were likely to get £20 as the amount of your fish account at the end of the season and that one half of the season was over, would they allow you to run up an account at the fish-merchant's shop to the amount of £10 or £12 to the end of July?-I don't know. I never tried the experiment.

5472. But you know the practice among your neighbours and in the shops where you deal: do you think there would be any objection to allow an account to run up to £10 or £15 for shop goods?-I don't think there would. .

5473. Would there be any objection to advancing you £10 or £15 in money?-I could not say that.

5474. Was that ever tried by anybody you know?-No; I never tried it myself, and I never heard of it being tried, and therefore I cannot say whether it would be allowed or not.

5475. But you have no doubt you would get £12 or £15 in goods?-I have little doubt that I would,-that is, if I were fishing for that particular fish-curer.

5476. What fish-curer were you employed by last?-When I was last employed by any one, it was Mr. Pole, Mossbank.

5477. At that time did you deal at his shop for your supplies?- Yes; for the most part. I dealt more with him then than I have done since.

5478. Your account was settled, at the end of the year?-Yes.

5479. What kind of account had you generally at settling time for supplies to your family?-I cannot recollect exactly how much it was; but sometimes it may have been £3 or £4.

5480. Then you will not be spending so much as that in the shop now?-No; I have not had occasion to do it for the last two years.

5481. Were you under any sort of obligation to deal at Mr. Pole's shop more than at another shop when you were fishing for him?- Not a bit. They did not prevent me from going anywhere I chose. When I chose to ask anything in their shop, I took it at their own price; but if I did not like it, they did not compel me to take it.

5482. Is there anything else you want to say on the subject of this inquiry?-For my part, I have little to say, because I am not so much concerned in it as some men are. I have my freedom and my liberty.

5483. You think that some other men are more interested in these matters than you?-Yes.

5484. In what way are they interested?-Owing to their circumstances; some of them have families, and they must go to the fish-curer and be supplied by him. They get most of their payment in goods, and they cannot get money.

5485. How can they not get money? Is it because they run up an account at the merchant's shop?-Yes.

5486. But they will get money if they ask it?-Yes; they might get money too.

5487. Why is it that they do not get money?-I don't know. What I mean is, that if they run up an account at the shop, they cannot have money of their own with which to buy things cheaper elsewhere.

5488. What makes them run up an account for goods? Is it because they cannot get money easily?-Very likely it is.

5489. But you say they would get money if they asked it?-If they were to ask for money, I don't see any reason why they should not get it as well as goods.

5490. And to the same amount?-I cannot say for that.

5492. Do you mean that the money which they would get if they were asking for it in the course of the fishing season would be regarded as a loan, and not as a payment for their fishing?-No.

5492. Suppose a man were to ask a fish-curer for an advance of money in July, would not that advance of money in July, would not that advance be looked upon as if he were asking for a loan of money?-No; that is not generally the way they would do. If I were fishing to a fish-curer, and giving him my fish, and if I were to ask for some money, it would just go to my account in the same way as if I was taking out goods until the fish were sold at the end of the year when I settled, and my fish would pay for that money as well as for the goods.

5493. But would it not be considered a favour to give money in that way?-I don't think so.

5494. Do you think the fish-curer would be bound to give you money if you asked for it in the beginning of the season?-Yes.

5495. And would he be as ready to give it to you as he would be to give you goods?-No; I don't think he could be expected to do that. However, I cannot say much upon that subject, because I never asked for much money,

5496. Did you think it would be asking a favour to ask for money?-I cannot say.

5497. Did you think the merchant would rather give you goods?- Of course he would expect us to take the goods, from the way of dealing which prevails.

5498. Do you mean that the practice is for the men to get goods advances rather than cash advances during the season and before the settlement?-That depends upon the circumstances of the men who are fishing. Sometimes they require money to pay their rent with, and that is generally advanced to them in money; but when they require goods they usually take them from the fish-curer by whom they are employed.

5499. Do you mean that they don't get money unless it is required by them for some particular purpose?-No; unless they have money to get on their own earnings. If they have money over at settlement time, they will get it in cash when the account is balanced.

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5500. Of course they get it at settlement time; but before then can they get money from the man who employs them, unless for some particular purpose?-No.

5501. Any advances that are made then are made in goods?-Yes; unless they are required in money.

Brae, January 10, 1872, JOHN HENDERSON, examined.

5502. You are a fisherman at Mossbank?-I am.

5503. On whose land do you live?-On Sheriff Bell's.

5504. Are you bound to fish to any particular merchant?-No; not unless I go to the Skerries.

5505. Who do you fish for just now?-For Mr. Pole.

5506. Are you settled with at the end of the year like the other men?-Yes.

5507. Do you deal at Mr. Pole's shop?-Very little.

5508. Where else do you go for your articles?-To any shop where I think I can get them cheapest and best.

5509. You are quite at liberty to go where you please?-I am.

5510. You can deal at Lerwick or at Voe, without running any chance of losing your engagement for the next season?-I can.

5511. Have you generally a good lot of cash to get from Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., at the end of the year?-I have generally the principal part of my earning to get.

5512. Why don't you deal more at Mr. Pole's store?-Because, when I have money, and can go anywhere else, I can perhaps get my goods a little cheaper.

5513. Is it not handy for you to deal at the Mossbank shop?-It is handy, but it is no great hardship for me to go anywhere else if I think I can get my things a little cheaper.

5514. Can you tell me any articles that are cheaper in the one place than in the other?-Meal, for instance, is always higher in Mossbank than it is in Lerwick. Taking the meal from Mossbank at the retail price, there will be a difference of perhaps 8s. or 9s. per sack on that, and on buying a sack in Lerwick for cash. The sack is 280 lbs. weight, or 2 bolls, and that is a difference of 4s. or 4s. 6d. per boll.

5515. When did you try that?-I have tried it now for a good few years.

5516. Is that the difference if you buy it wholesale,-a sack at a time?-Yes.

5517. If you were buying a sack at Mr. Pole's store, how much would you pay for it?-I have never been under the necessity of buying a sack there. What meal I have bought at their shop has always been in small quantities: perhaps about a quarter boll weekly.

5518. What is the price of a quarter boll?-It is different prices: sometimes higher and sometimes lower.

5519. What did you pay for it last?-I have not had a quarter boll of meal from Mossbank this year at all, because last year we thought it too dear, and therefore we gave up taking it.

5520. Tell me any particular time when you bought meal at Mossbank, and found that at the same time, or within a short time after it or before it, you could have got the same meal in Lerwick for less money?-Not the past summer, but the summer before, I had meal from Mossbank, taking it in small portions as it was required, such as a quarter boll weekly; and at the same date, when I was getting these small portions, I got meal from Lerwick to my own house for about 10s. of difference on the sack,-only the meal that I bought from Lerwick was a whole sack, and ready money was given for it, while the meal bought from Mossbank was in small portions, and it was got on credit until the time of settlement.

5521. Do you think that difference was not accounted for by the difference between wholesale and retail prices?-For instance, would you not have got the two bolls at Mossbank, if you had bought that quantity there, as cheaply as you got them at Lerwick?-No; there would have been 5s. of difference if I had bought two bolls there.

5522. But there would be the expense of carrying the meal from Lerwick: that would be worth something?-That was 8d., and the shipping of it 2d.

5523. Is there any other article you think you have an advantage on in the same way?-Yes; there are different articles. For instance, lines are one principal thing we require, and for my sixth share, I would have nineteen lines in my bundle.

5524. Do you buy your own lines?-I do.

5525. Is it the practice with men fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co. to do so?-Some of them do, and some do not; some of them have lines of their own; some buy them and pay for them by instalments; and others hire them. Last year I went to Lerwick and bought my own lines; and my nineteen lines, when they were ready to go to sea, cost me £2, 1s. I heard some of the men who were in the boat say that their portion of the lines, of the same quantity, cost them 51s. or 52s.; that would be paid for at settlement.

5526. Could they have got them cheaper at Mossbank if they had paid for them there in cash?-I could not say for that, because I never inquired into it.

5527. Is there anything else you can mention which you can buy cheaper elsewhere than you can at Mossbank?-If a man has ready money, he will always get little discount wherever he may purchase his goods.

5528. Then I suppose it is the fault of the men themselves that they do not get their ready money from Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and use it as they like?-Mr. Pole won't refuse money to any man who has it to get; or if he knows he is an honest man, he will give him an advance of money, although he does not have it earned.

5529. But if a man could carry on to the end of the year, he would get all the price of his fish in cash?-Every penny.

5530. And then he could do with it as he pleased, and buy where he chose?-Yes; he could go to any place that was cheapest.

5531. Have you heard the evidence of James Hay and Andrew Tulloch?-Yes.

5532. Do you think that what they stated about the system of things here was generally correct?-I cannot say that there was much wrong in what they said; but I think there would not be a better plan than ready money if it could be obtained.

5533. Would not all the fishermen get ready money if they contracted to have a fixed price for their fish, to be paid to them as the fish were delivered?-They would. There is no fish-merchant who would not pay them the value of their fish in money if they have it to get; but how can they get it in money if they take it out in goods? They cannot expect that.

5534. But if the men made a bargain that they were to be paid in money for their fish every time they were delivered, they would not take it out in goods then?-No; they would have money.

5535. Is that ever done? Is the bargain ever made for a fixed price at the beginning of the season to be paid according to the weight of fish when it is delivered and every time it is delivered?-No; I never had that bargain, and I never heard of it.

5536. Have you ever heard of any different bargain from the common one of settling at the end of the year?-Yes; there is sometimes a difference in the bargains with regard to the lines, when men have lines of their own, and do not require to hire them.

5537. But in all those cases the settlement is at the end of the year

5538. Have you heard of any bargain for settling at another time than at the end of the year, and in a different way?-No.

5539. Did you ever know of men agreeing to fish for wages?-Not in the ling-fishing.

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5540. Do you think free men would agree to that?-I don't know: some of them might.

5541. Would you agree to it?-I would just as soon run my own chance.

Brae, January 10, 1872, GILBERT BLANCE, examined.

5542. You are a fisherman at Mid Garth?-Yes; in the immediate neighbourhood of Mossbank.

5543. Do you hold land under Mr. Bell?-No; the landlord under whom I held is dead, and the property is now under trustees. Mr. Sievwright, writer, Lerwick, is the factor for it.

5544. Are you under any obligation to fish to a particular fish-curer?-No.

5545. You can fish for anybody you please?-Yes.

5546. For whom do you fish?-For Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.,

5547. Do you deal at their shop for all your goods?-Yes.

5548. Do you find that you have generally a balance to receive in cash at the settlement?-No; I have generally had a balance against me. I have never had a balance in cash to receive except in two special years. One of these was one year when they were paying 8s. per cwt. for the green fish; and the other was the past year, when they were also paying 8s.

5549. Do you think you are as well served at Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop as you would be if you took your money and spent it where you pleased?-I don't know much about the difference in that respect.

5550. Have you ever made any comparison between the prices which you pay for your goods at their shop, and what you would pay for them elsewhere?-No, I have never tried that.

5551. What is generally the amount of the balance against you at the end of the year?-It may range from £17 to £5.

5552. Do you get any payments in cash in the course of the year?-No; very seldom. When men are in debt there are no payments in cash; but if I need a little money, I can call upon them for that assistance.

5553. Do you mean when you want money for rent, or anything of that sort?-Yes, for rent.

5554. Do you consider that you are under any obligation to engage to fish for them in consequence of being in debt in that way?-I consider myself obliged to fish to them so long as I am indebted to them.

5555. Have you ever thought of engaging to fish for another company, or attempted to do so?-I have thought of it, but I did not think it was giving them fair play to offer my services to fish for another when I was indebted to them.

5556. Do you know many men, who are fishing to them, and who are indebted to them in the same way?-Yes; there are different men I know who are indebted to them, perhaps not to so large an extent, but still to some extent.

5557. Do they consider it fair to continue to fish to the merchants to whom they are in debt rather than to engage with another?-We hear them say very little about that.

5558. They don't complain?-No; we don't hear them complain much.

5559. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if you were to engage with any one else?-We might make better bargains with other men, but we cannot attempt to do that in our present way of fishing.

5560. Is that because in the present way of fishing no price is fixed?-Yes; no price is fixed until the end of the year.

5561. Do you think the price fixed at the end of the year ought sometimes to be higher than it is?-We sometimes do think that, because, as has been already stated by the witnesses, although we are fishing for the whole season, we don't know what we are to obtain for our fish. That depends upon the market which the merchant has to make for the fish before he can pay the value of them. The price will range from 8s. to 4s. 6d., according to the markets they make.

5562. The fishermen, I understand, have nothing to do with fixing the price?-Nothing whatever.

5563. Have you ever cured your own fish?-No.

5564. Nor sold them?-No.

5565. Have you any reason to believe that the current price as fixed by the fish-merchants is not the fair value of the fish throughout the season?-Some of the fishermen think they don't get so much for their fish as they ought to get, but perhaps that may be a mistake on the part of the men.

5566. We are all apt to be a little discontented; but do you think there is any reason for that belief more than the natural tendency of the men to discontent?-I cannot say whether there is any real ground for that belief or not.

5567. You cannot tell any case in which you thought you got less for your fish than you ought to have got?-I could not mention any particular instance of that, because we never see the account of sales which the merchants make of the fish.

5568. Do you know when the fish sales take place?-I think it is some time about the month of November.

5569. How soon after that are you told what you are to get for your take?-When we come to settle, either on the last of November or the first of December..

5570. You heard the evidence of the previous witnesses: do you think it was generally correct?-I think it was very correct, so far as I know.

5571. Has your experience with regard to the system of dealing been the same as was described by them?-It has been the same as the last witness described.

5572. But you don't know whether you got goods dearer at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop than you could get them elsewhere?-No, I don't know anything about that, because all we require, such as meal, lines, calico, and other things, comes from their shop.

5573. What price do you pay for meal?-We don't usually buy meal in wholesale, as the last witness did, but probably in pecks or two pecks or lispunds.

5574. Do you keep a pass-book?-No.

5575. Why not?-Because we trust to the honesty of the merchants.

5576. Do they not want you to take a pass-book?-They would have no objection to us having one, but many of us are not good arithmeticians, and we could not make much of them although we had them.

5577. When you were out fishing, have you sometimes sold your fish to others than Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I have not been in the habit of doing that.

5578. Is it sometimes done?-Perhaps it is by some individuals.

5579. What is their reason for doing that?-I cannot say what their reason may be, unless it is to have immediate supplies.

5580. Or money?-Yes, or money; but it is commonly for something such as refreshments which they wish to take on their way to or coming from the fishing-ground.

5581. Where do you usually meet the people who buy your fish from you in that way?-Sometimes they are met in the course of our fishing operations at the land's end.

5582. On the land?-No; on the sea in a little boat. They will take any small portion of fish we may give them, and hand us refreshments in return.

5583. Do you get a larger sum for your fish in that way?-No; I never knew of any larger sum that was given in that way than the country currency.

5584. Is that practice what you call smuggling the fish?-I suppose so.

5585. Do you think it is much done?-It is not much done now. Formerly it was done to some extent, but not to any great extent.

5586. I suppose there were some factors or merchants in the country who did it good deal in buying fish on the sly in that way at one time?-I believe there was at one time, but not so much now.

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5587. Did they give a higher price for the fish than the fish-curers give?-Yes.

5588. Was it a higher price than the currency?-Yes.

5589. Are there it few of these men still?-Yes.

5590. They do come from Lerwick?-No; they are just people living in the country.

5591. Do they buy the fish either green or cured?-They will take them more readily green than cured, because they cure them for themselves. The factor who buys generally cures for himself.

5592. Is the man who buys fish in that way generally a merchant who keeps a shop himself somewhere?-Generally he has a small bit of a shop.

Brae, January 10, 1872, THOMAS MOUNTFORD ADIE, examined.

5593. You are a fish-merchant, and the principal partner of the firm of T.M. Adie & Co. Voe?-Yes, the business is conducted in my own name, but my sons have an interest in it.

5594. Do you employ a great number of fishermen?-Yes, a large number.

5595. Are the contracts which you enter into with them different in some of their details?-As a rule they are much the same.

5596. Although there may be some difference, the general rule is, that in the home fishing the fisherman delivers his fish to you at a price that is fixed at the end of the season?-Yes.

5597. Have you tried to arrange with your fishermen for dealings upon any different system from that?-I have not.

5598. Have you not on one or two occasions made different arrangements?-On one or two occasions I have made contracts with some of them for a fixed price.

5599. That price being fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes.

5600. Has that generally turned out well?-It did not turn out well in these cases. The price advanced in the course of the season, and I had to pay the men the advanced price in order to satisfy them.

5601. Would the men have been discontented otherwise?-Yes.

5602. Is it long since that happened?-It is several years now; perhaps 12 or 14 years ago.

5603. Do you think it would be any advantage for the curer or the fishermen if that system were generally adopted?-My impression is, that the fishermen would suffer, for this reason, that fish in the summer season are always sold at a less price, and any one buying green fish must calculate what he can give for them according to the value of the article then. By delaying the settlement till the end of the season, the fishermen take the chance of the price either rising or falling, but the probability is that it will rise, because salt fish usually sell better in the winter season than in summer.

5604. So that if the price were fixed at the beginning of the year, you think it would generally be fixed too low?-Yes.

5605. But both the fishermen and the master would take into account at the beginning of the season the probability of the price rising in winter, and the fact that it generally does rise then, would they not?-It is scarcely likely that that would be much taken into account; because when a man buys an article he buys it at the price of the day, and not at what the price of it may become. There is no doubt that would be a more satisfactory way of dealing if it could be done but I don't see how it could be adopted, because no curer could offer to buy fish offhand at a price that would satisfy the fishermen.

5606. Is the probability that the fishermen would be discontented your principal reason for objecting to that system?-Yes.

5607. If it could be carried out, would it simplify your own business?-Yes, it would simplify my business very much. If the men had boats, and lines of their own, and did not need any advance, but had all their money to take, and I could pay it at the end of the week, it would simplify matters very much indeed.

5608. Under that system, however there would be difficulty in advancing the men?-We could not give advances to them at all; and if we did not make advances, they could not go to the fishing.

5609. Is the system generally followed in your establishment, that of advancing boats and lines to the fishermen?-Yes, whenever it is needed. There are solitary cases where men buy their own boats, having money laid past; but that is very rare.

5610. When they do so, do they pay the price by instalments, or do they pay down the money?-They pay for them by instalments on a particular principle of payment which has been adopted for the purpose. That principle is this: The boat is built by any carpenter the men choose to employ; the price is paid for it, and that is charged to their account. There is generally a hire of £2, 10s. paid every year for a six-oared boat; that is placed to the credit of the boat yearly, to enable the men to pay up for their boat, so that they may really have it of their own, because I consider it would be better for me if they had them. When the men buy their boats, I give them 3d. per, cwt. additional for each cwt. of fish caught to go to the credit of their boat until it is paid; and when once the boat is their own, they get that additional price into their own private accounts, and it is paid to them in cash whenever the price of the boat is paid up.

5611. Do you mean that you give 3d. per cwt. higher to these men than you give to men who hire a boat?-Yes.

5612. And you give that to a man who has a boat of his own to begin with?-If he has a boat of his own, he gets the 3d.

5613. Then, when you charge for boat-hire, you charge 3d. per cwt. in addition on the price of the fish?-No, we don't charge that, but they get 3d. per cwt. less. For instance, the price this year for ling was 8s. The crew gets settled for that; and if they had been buying the boat, we put 3d. per cwt. to the credit of the account for the boat, in order to enable them to acquire it for themselves.

5614. And you would give the same advantage to man who possessed his own boat originally?-Yes; if he possessed his own boat, he would be better entitled to it, because then I would be running no risk. In the other case, the men might lose the boat, and then I would have nothing to get for it.

5615. But when you charge the boat-hire, the men are obliged to take a smaller price for their fish in addition to having the hire to pay for it?-Yes, and even in that case we are worse off, because the boats cost much more than the amount of the hire will cover. We are better off giving them the 3d. to enable them to get a boat of their own.

5616. I suppose when the boat is their own the men take better care of it, and it will last longer?-Yes, very commonly.

5617. And I suppose they take better care of it even before it becomes their own?-Generally they do, although I have some men who take very great care of their materials even when they are hiring them. There are great differences in men in that way.

5618. Is that a system you have adopted yourself, in order to induce the men to become the owners of their own boats?-Yes, I don't know any other curer who uses it.

5619. That shows that you have no interest in having the men hiring out a boat from you?-No; very far from it.

5620. How long does it generally take for a man to pay off a boat when he buys it in that way?-Buying it in that way, if their fishing was anything good, the boat's crew would clear it in about five fishing seasons.

5621. It would then become their joint property?-Yes.

5622. How long does a boat generally last?-The [Page 139] greatest length of time they are used for is 12 years; but very often they give them up when they are 6 or 7 years old. Perhaps the boat is not good, and they won't risk it any longer.

5623. In that case, do they generally begin a new arrangement for the purchase of another boat?-Yes, for the purchase of a boat, if it is their own. If it is a hired boat, then it is thrown on the curer's hands to provide them with another.

5624. What is the usual rate for a boat-hire throughout Shetland? -I think £2, 10s. is a pretty general hire over all for such boats.

5625. I understand you settle with your own men yearly about December?-We commence settling about 12th November, and it takes us a considerable time to get over the whole of our men.

5626. Has each man dealing with you a pass-book?-No, not all, but the greater part of them have.

5627. But you wish them to have pass-books?-Yes; I should be very glad for them all to have passbooks, if they would only keep them regularly. When it is a careful man, his book is kept regularly, and there is very little trouble with him in taking down his account.

5628. I understand each fisherman employed by you has an account in your ledger, in which each year is balanced at the settling time?-Yes.

5629. That account on the one side contains the debt which he has incurred for furnishings to the boat, boat-hire, and the amount of his shop account, if he has one?-Yes; the boat-hires are generally kept under the head of a company account in name of the master of the boat, as for instance, Thomas Robertson & Co.

5630. Then you have two ledger accounts for your men-one for the boat's crew, and one for the account of each individual?-Yes; we very frequently have these accounts entered in the same ledger; but where the men are fishing at one of our stations, such as Papa, the company account is settled in the station ledger, which can always be referred to.

5631. But in that case the individual man has an account in another ledger?-He has his account in our general ledger at Voe.