Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (62)

15,923. Are haps often sold at so high a price as 30s?-No, not haps; they are sold up to about £1. That has been my experience. I may say that I have been in shops, when the first question asked before a price was stated was, whether the article was for the person's self or for a stranger; that is to say, was it to be sold to a person in the country, or was it to go away outside, because in these cases they have two different prices. I have likewise been in shops when, if there were any of the knitting girls there selling shawls or other articles, the merchant would take very good care to state the price to his other customers in the lowest possible voice, and at the farthest possible distance from these girls; and I have been repeatedly told that they will occasionally put the price upon a piece of paper, so as not to let the knitters hear it. That I say in contradiction to the assertion which is made, that the merchants sell the hosiery articles at the same price as that at which they nominally buy them. Again, I want to point out that in most cases all the worsted that the hosiery merchants in Lerwick dealt in up to the last year was bought from the country merchants for goods, and therefore that even that nominal value did not represent the true value of the articles. I produce an account containing transactions amounting to £146; it is all balanced by goods, which were entirely worsted, up to £1, 3s. 10d. The only item of cash I find in the account is 15s. Lately, however, they have been obliged and are ready to buy the worsted for cash, because they cannot do without it, and the supply of worsted is decreasing.

15,924. You are speaking of Shetland worsted?-Yes. I may mention also that that estimate of the value of the worsted for a shawl was intended by me to embrace the Yorkshire worsted, or what they call the Pyrenees, although I don't suppose either the worsted or the wool ever saw the Pyrenees: it is made in Yorkshire.

15,925. Are you speaking, in both these cases of haps and of shawls, of articles made of Shetland worsted?-All the haps are made from Shetland worsted, the coarser worsted.

15,926. You said in that answer to which you have referred, 'They nominally give the worker 9s. for working it, but if they get it in goods that will be about 4s.:' is not that a little too strong?-I don't think it.

15,927. That assumes that the charge for the goods is about 100 per cent. above the cost price, or rather it assumes that it is 100 per cent. above the price at which the worker of the shawl ought to get these goods, which would not be the cost price, but the retail price?-No, I don't mean that. I mean to say that if these merchants were to go to the proper market, they could buy their goods at such a rate that they would be able to sell them at 100 per cent. profit; but I know that a great many of these merchants go to second-hand houses to buy. Whether it is for the object of getting long credits, or what it is, I don't know; but I know from the parties who come here that a great many of them are not first-class houses.

15,928. Have you any personal knowledge as to the wholesale houses with which these merchants deal for their goods?-Do you mean, do I know who comes down here?

15,929. Yes?-Yes, I do.

15,930. From what source is your knowledge derived?-From their travellers, and from seeing their goods coming down.

15,931. You are acquainted with the travellers of those houses?- Most assuredly.

15,932. And you know that they are not wholesale houses in the strict sense of the term, but middle-men?-Exactly. I say that the merchants here could go to much better quarters for their goods if they were to put their business on a proper footing. Wholesale houses in Aberdeen are not in the same position as wholesale houses in London.

15,933. Do London houses send travellers here?-No; but if the merchants' business was on a proper foundation they could get introductions to these houses, and do their business at a better rate.

15,934. Is there any other point on which you wish to make an addition or explanation upon your former evidence?-It has been generally remarked by fishcurers, that one reason why they could not give up the present system of dealing with their men was because the men would not have the means of getting boats and fittings for the fishing, whilst at the same time the principal fish-curers assert that they do pay enormous sums of money to the men. For instance, I have seen from the papers that it has been stated by Messrs. Hay & Co. that in the island of Whalsay alone they paid £1300 last year, whilst the total value of the boats and fishing gear there cannot be over £400. Therefore it is absurd to say that the men would not be able to supply themselves with boats. Again, it has been stated and maintained that the Shetland men as a race are intelligent, and in one sense they are. Indeed their intelligence is so acute that the employers are ashamed, as I have no doubt you have found in the evidence, to give them accounts. They are rather afraid that their acuteness would discover too much in them, but in addition to that they tell you it would be impossible for the men to divide the produce of the fishing among themselves if it was paid in cash at the station, because it would require a man conversant with accounts; so that it is an absurdity to say that they are an intelligent race, and yet cannot adjust the proportions which would go to the different men in a boat's crew if they were paid in cash.

15,935. Probably they would be sufficiently acute to adjust their accounts if they were accustomed to do so like other people in other parts of the world?-I say they are quite capable of doing that. They are quite capable of looking after their own accounts if these were [Page 403] produced to them. There is another thing I should like to point out with regard to the agriculture of Shetland as compared with that of other places. I am sorry I have come away without the statistics, but if you look into them you will find that we have a much larger number of stock in Shetland with a rental of only £30,000, than Orkney with a rental of £60,000, from which I deduce that it is a far greater object to the merchants and proprietors here to continue the people as fishers upon the present system, than to put the land upon a legitimate and proper footing.

15,936. In what way do you arrive at that inference?-The land is under-rented for the purpose of binding the men to continue as fishermen for their employers. A great deal of the land is in outsets, and these outsets were originally set at the mere interest upon the house that was built, or upon any enclosures that were made. That was done for the purpose of procuring extra fishermen, and the system has been continued to this day. By looking at the valuation roll, you would find an immense difference between the rents of merks land and the rents of outsets.

15,937. I don't suppose that any proprietor who employs his men in fishing would deny that if he ceased to do so the rents of his tenants must be raised?-I rather think they do deny that.

15,938. I have had admissions made to that effect in the evidence which has been given before me?-I have heard none of the evidence that has been taken; but I am glad to hear that they are thinking of turning over a new leaf, and admitting even that they are wrong.

15,939. I don't say it has been a general admission, but that admission has been made by one proprietor at least?-I say that it ought to be a general admission. Another thing I would mention is, that the people with their present beliefs are unfortunately too subservient to come forward and frankly give full evidence upon the matter, and I would give an instance of the sub-serviency and illiterateness that prevails among them. I received the other day a report from two men, in which they use such language as 'resources of science and art,' and one of them was styled the superintendent, and the other the manager, of the working department of the largest establishment in this place for the manufacture of blubber. One of these men could hardly sign his own name, while the other had to sign with cross. That fact I mention in order to show that these men are under the belief that they are bound to do in most cases as their superiors may dictate to them.

15,940. Has it come within your knowledge that many people have been afraid to come forward and give evidence before this Commission?-Yes; a great many people have told me they would not do it.

15,941. Do you refer to fishermen?-To fishermen and to females too. I may mention also that I have been instrumental in starting a large company here upon the limited liability principle, the first object of which is stated to be to afford to the people of Shetland an opportunity of prosecuting their fishings free from the truck system.

15,942. Is that a company for prosecuting the Faroe fishing or the ling fishing?-It is to be for all. It is to commence this year with the Faroe fishing.

15,943. Did you send out any vessels in 1871?-No, we did not begin in 1871, except with a single vessel in which I was interested, and which we sent out to see what we could do with it.

15,944. Did that vessel belong to the company?-No, not to this company. The company has been formed in Glasgow, of gentlemen who are desirous of putting down this iniquitous system.

15,945. Do you propose to carry on the fishing with out any shop?-Yes.

15,946. And to pay all in cash?-Yes.

15,947. Do you propose to pay by annual settlements?-The men still prefer going upon the old system of payments; but in order to provide for their outfit, as they call it, we propose to pay it in cash the moment the vessel leaves the harbour with them on board, and we intend to afford to their families an advance of what is fair and reasonable to keep them while the men are away. We are quite prepared to run all that risk against a bad fishing, and we will pay them the balance in cash at any moment they choose after they come home.

15,948. Are the advances you are to make to be in cash also?- Yes; they are to be in cash, not in goods.

15,949. Do you think it will be possible for the fishing business to be conducted, perhaps not immediately, but shortly after this, without the fishermen requiring advances either in cash or goods?-Certainly; and I say that if that system could be adopted now it could be carried on, looking to the amount of money that has been accumulated on deposit by the people in the country generally.

15,950. Then why do you propose in your enterprise to make advances in cash?-Just to suit the humour of the people, until they come to see for themselves that such advances are not necessary.

15,951. I suppose you want to begin cautiously?-We do, and to work them into the system gradually. In fact we wish them eventually to take shares in these vessels, and to get vessels and boats for themselves.

15,952. But in the arrangement you propose, so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned, the men will be sharesmen?-They are sharesmen in the produce, but they have no shares in the vessel; but I propose that they should eventually have an interest in the vessel, and we are quite willing to give them an interest in any vessel they choose. We are also desirous to get better boats for them in the ling fishing. It has been stated likewise that the people could not get their supplies at the stations if there was a cash system, as there would not be shops there, because the whole amount that is sold at the stations in the course of a year is merely nominal; and to show that, it is mentioned that it is usually an ordinary splitter who attends to the shop, or the fish factor. That man is not in the shop any time during the rest of the year, and it is said that there is only a very limited amount of goods sent there, being intended only for the supply of the men when they go out to sea. If that is the case, it would be no great hardship if these goods were not there, but I say that they would be there.

15,953. Do you think the men could easily take their own supplies with them?-Quite easily; and wherever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered. If there is money to be got there, you will be sure to find shops there too.

15,954. In what way were the men paid who went to the Faroe fishing in your vessel last year?-They were paid by shares the same as they had hitherto been, and this [producing it] is a copy of their settlement. The name of the vessel is the 'Lily of the Valley.'

15,955. I see that this account of the settlement is drawn up in the form which is ordinarily used in Shetland?-I don't know, but I suppose it is.

15,956. It shows the amount of fish caught, and then the deductions, and finally the division?-Yes.

15,957. I see no deduction for commission?-There is no commision.

15,958. That is usually, but not universally, taken by the owner?- I don't know why it should be. I think it is hardly fair if the men are doing their duty that the owner should not do his also, and take the fish to the best market.

15,959. You think the owner should be considered to be paid for that by his share of the produce?-I think so. I also produce a copy of our account for the expense of salt and curing.

15,960. Does this show the actual expenditure incurred by you in curing the fish brought in by the vessel?-Yes.

15,961. Was it arranged with the men that they should be charged only the actual expense incurred for salt and curing, and not an estimate according to the usual system?-Yes.

15,962. Is it not usual in Shetland that the expense of curing is deducted according to an estimate of 47s. 6d. and 50s., or 52s. 6d., as the case may be?-No; I understand it is the cost that is charged. The agreement [Page 404] with our men was that they were to receive one half of the proceeds of the fish caught, after deducting the expenses of curing, salt, etc., and master's premium 10s. per ton, and mate's premium 2s. 6d. per ton, and that they should receive 8 lbs. weight of bread per man per week, and also 9d. per score to each man for all the fish caught by him, one half to be paid by the owners, and the other half by the crew.

15,963. What was the return to the owners upon their share of that vessel last year?-22 per cent.

15,964. The total share payable to each man is shown in the account you have produced?-Yes. Their half share amounted to £188, 9s. 6d., but then they had wages in the succeeding voyage as specified in the agreement.

15,965. Is there any other point on which you wish to make any additional remark?-I may say that when I was south lately, I saw letters from some of the whaling agents here, which plainly indicated that the commission of 21/2 per cent. paid to them for the engagement of seamen for the seal and whale fishing, would not, in their opinion, afford sufficient remuneration to them.

15,966. Have you got these letters?-No; but I saw them, and I was asked by the owners in the south if I could put them in the way of getting an agent who would consider himself sufficiently remunerated by that commission. I was first asked if I considered 21/2 per cent. paid them for their trouble. I said certainly; and I then engaged with Mr. Scott in Lerwick to act as agent for these vessels. Their previous agents did not consider that they would be remunerated sufficiently unless they got a full opportunity of trading with the men.

15,967. Is Mr. Scott to act as agent without having any opportunity of trading with the men?-Yes. The advance will be paid in cash at the time of the engagement, and the allotment notes will be paid at the bank.

15,968. Did you make that arrangement in consequence of what the shipowners in the south said to you?-Yes. That is an experiment which Mr. Scott is about to make; but there is no doubt about the result of it, because 21/2 per cent. is a very liberal commission for doing little or nothing.

15,969. Are you now in the management of the chromate of iron quarries in Unst?-Yes.

15,970. I understand the wages there are not paid in truck?-No; they have not been since I had anything to do with the quarries.

15,971. Are you aware that that was the case formerly-Yes; it was truck from beginning to end.

15,972. Did you find that to be the case when you undertook the management of the quarries?-Yes; after I had commenced the thing I was asked by the man who had previously trucked them if I would allow the workmen to be settled with in the office, so that they could get them into the shop immediately afterwards.

15,973. In what capacity had that person trucked them? Was he secretary or manager for the company?-They had a sort of anomalies there for managing the company. This one was supposed to be paymaster, and then they had a manager. The paymaster was a director, and he had a shop too.

15,974. Did you ascertain that the men had been paid at that shop by lines or tickets?-There was no payment at all. Their accounts were adjusted from time to time, the amount of goods which they had got was taken off, and the balance was handed to them. It was done openly and above-board; the man himself told me about it.

15,975. But accounts are always kept and settled in Shetland without any attempt of concealment?-I think so. I never had any difficulty in discovering it. I may add further, from my experience as chairman of three parochial boards, that since the system of truck and paying with lines was done away with in the parishes I am connected with, the rates have been reduced considerably.

15,976. How do you account for that?-Because the people have got money. It used to be considered an acknowledged fact, that for a pauper's shilling, if they brought a shilling to the shop, they would get 14d. worth of goods. The money was able to go much further, because there was wholesome competition between the different merchants to get a share of the money.

15,977. I understand Major Cameron's tenants throughout Shetland are at liberty to fish for any fish-curer they please?- Yes, for any one they please.

15,978. I think in your previous evidence you referred to the lease to Spence & Co. in Unst, and expressed a sort of regret that it had ended in a monopoly?-Yes.

15,979. There has been a good deal of evidence given before me to the effect that a monopoly of that kind is beneficial, and that it is wholesome, mainly in preventing small shops from springing up in large numbers, and that it requires a large capitalist to develop the resources of the country properly: is that so?-That is perfectly true: but a merchant or any one who says that should recollect that except for the capital of the poor fishermen they could not carry on the business themselves.

15,980. Are you aware whether the fish-merchants generally are men of large capital?-I should say that they cannot be, from this fact, that they would readily pay the men in cash which they get, and which in the month of August must amount to about £40,000 due to the men, if they had it.

15,981. Is that merely an inference which you draw from the practice which prevails?-Yes.

15,982. But have you any personal knowledge on the subject?- Yes. Perhaps it would not be fair to mention the names of the firms, but I know several firms who have commenced within the last few years with no capital, and who are carrying on a business which in the south would require an enormous capital. I know it is alleged by merchants generally that they do not consider they are trading upon the poor man's capital.

15,983. I suppose you speak of the merchants trading upon the poor man's capital, in this sense, that they do not pay for the fish which is in their hands until about the time when they get their returns?-Exactly; that they neither are merchants nor agents. They are not merchants, because they do not pay the men for the raw material, and they are not agents, because they do not give them honestly their account sales.

15,984. Are you aware of the practice existing in Shetland, that the proprietors in many cases receive their rents from the fish-curers?-Yes. During the first year or two that I settled for Major Cameron, I got many cheques from the fish-curers.

15,985. Was that for the whole amount of rent due by a number of fishermen?-Yes, either that, or each man would bring his separate cheque; but in a great many cases in Shetland the fish-curer just pays it slump, or what is called guarantees it.

15,986. That is not an actual guarantee; it is merely an arrangement by which the fisherman, for the convenience of all parties, is debited in the fish-curer's book with the amount of rent which the fish-curer pays to the landlord?- True; but in it great many cases, as I have previously stated, I think there is a chronic balance against the men, which balance, I think, if looked into, would generally be found to be composed to a great extent of advances of rent for the next year, which practically thirls the men on to them, but which has no right to go through their books at all.

15,987. Are you aware whether the fish-curer is induced to make that advance of rent by the consideration that he holds his own premises from the landlord, and might be charged a higher rent, or lose some other advantage, if he did not do so?-Most assuredly. There is no doubt that, if they were thrown open, the rents of the business premises would double themselves throughout the country.

15,988. Have you known any instance in which the landlord favoured the merchant so far as to refuse to allow other businesses to be begun upon his estates?-Yes.

15,989. Had that happened in the case of Major Cameron's estates?-Not so far as I know, and no one [Page 405] has ever asked it. In fact we have business premises lying unlet just now.

15,990. Do you know that that has happened elsewhere?-I do; in more cases than one.

15,991. Is it not virtually the case in Unst, that no premises are allowed there except those of Spence Co.?-I don't know about that, because Spence & Co.'s principal premises are upon Henderson's property.

15,992. Were you not aware of Spence & Co. removing a merchant who had premises on the property of Major Cameron, which was under tack to them?-No; I think that was on a neighbouring property.

15,993. Was that the case of a house that was shifted bodily across the road?-It was not shifted bodily. The man put up a new place altogether.

15,994. Was that on Major Cameron's property?-No; neither in the one case nor in the other. I think he came off the Greenfield property, and he built a place upon the Earl of Zetland's lands.

15,995. Was there no one removed from Major Cameron's property in the neighbourhood of Uyea Sound, by Spence & Co.?-I don't think there was. There was a man there with a lease of land who kicked up a row with us about a pier and other things of kind, whose nephew, under his name was keeping a shop, and we distinctly told him that he must turn his attention to something else; that if he would use the house for a lodging-house or something of that kind he could stay, but that we would not allow him to do it under these circumstances.

15,996. Did he put up a shop elsewhere?-Yes. They built a new place to the west of Baltasound.

15,997. What were their names?-Isbister. If I am not misinformed, I think these parties are still carrying on the shop at Uyea Sound, conducted by a man Donald Johnston; at least I saw a boatload of goods coming ashore there, and on inquiry I was told they were for Isbister's shop.

15,998. Do you think such an arrangement as you have made with Spence & Co. is in any sense different as respects the interest of the men from that by which a proprietor cures himself, and employs his own tenants in the fishing?-In the way it is carried out, I don't think there is very much difference; but had it been carried out in the way that was intended and promised, it would have been very different. You must bear in mind that I don't think it is for the interests of the working people in Shetland to have scattald, and therefore it was intended that each man should have a farm for himself, and a lease of it, and they have a right to that under the lease to Spence & Co. Had they stuck to that, or were they to stick to that, they would be quite independent; but as they persist in believing that the scattalds are for their benefit, and as Spence & Co. have a right to these scattalds, it practically binds them to the merchants.

15,999. I understand that Spence & Co, from their lease, have absolute power to remove tenants if they don't comply with the rules and regulations which, are appended to the lease?-I don't think so, not without our sanction. I know that we don't think so.

16,000. That, if it is so, would give them an absolute power to compel the men to fish for them, just as much as when a landlord intimates to his tenants that they must fish for his tacksman on pain of removal. Assuming that they have that power, is not that the effect of it?-Assuming that they have that power, that would be the effect of it, but I don't think they have that power. It was never intended that they should have it, and I don't think they have it. I hold that we alone have power to turn off the tenants, and under the lease we only have power to bring in tenants.

16,001. The effect of the lease and the regulations appended to it, so far as I have been able to examine it, appears to be, that if a sub-tenant fails to comply with the rules and regulations appended to the lease, he may be removed by the lessee?-No, we quite deny that.

16,002. How do you reserve power under the lease to deal with the sub-tenant who does not comply with the rules?-We exclude assignees and sub-tenants, except as after-mentioned.

16,003. Perhaps the shortest way of dealing with that matter will be, that I should have an opportunity of reading the lease or it copy of it at leisure?-Certainly, but I may say decidedly that it was not intended that Spence & Co. should have such a power, and it is not being acted on, because we are now in process of warning four or five tenants who will not come under the rules. It was intended distinctly that we reserved all our present tenants, irrespective of Spence & Co. altogether.

16,004. But are not the powers with which Spence & Co. are invested with regard to peats and other matters, really such as to compel the tenants to remove if they do not comply with the rules?-No. The peats are reserved in our hands, for the purpose of compelling them to take care of the peat-banks.

16,005. That is not Mr. Sandison's reading of the lease?-I cannot help Mr. Sandison's reading of it but I am certain that it is the correct reading, from the fact that there was a very considerable correspondence carried on about Spence & Co. being allowed to put in certain tenants during the first two or three years of their lease. They have only right to put in new tenants within a certain time and after that they have no right to put anybody into a vacant farm.

16,006. You were speaking of poor-rates: do you think there has been no reduction of poor-rates in Shetland from any other cause than the reduction of truck?-Not in my opinion.

16,007. Have there not been better crops and better seasons lately?-Yes, but that does not reduce the number of paupers. The number of paupers has been increased rather than reduced.

16,008. But if there are good seasons with regard to crops and fishings, may not a greater number of paupers be maintained by their own friends, and fewer people fall upon the rates?-That might be so; but if the same number of paupers are on the roll, and if the allowances are practically the same, it must follow that the rates should be stationary.

16,009. Your statement is that the number of paupers has not been reduced?-It has not been reduced. It has been rather increased. I may mention that in Unst there has been a decrease from deaths, but not anything to account for a reduction of the rates from 8s. to 2s. 6d.

16,010. With regard to the price of shawls, when you spoke of a shawl being worth 25s. or 30s., did that apply to the merchants who purchase shawls for goods, or to private dealers?-I referred to what the shawls would be sold for to private individuals in the town.

16,011. The prices which you name for shawls are not the prices that were paid by merchants?-No; but with regard to that I may mention that I have heard merchants from the south say that when they sold goods to merchants here, in a great many cases they got goods back. There is a man named Saint in Aberdeen who deals considerably with the merchants here, and perhaps he would be able to give evidence as to whether he does not prefer to pay in cash, but that to give goods is insisted upon by the merchants here.

16,012. Did you mean to say in an earlier part of your evidence that the merchants here get supplies of goods mostly from second-hand houses?-I mean to say that they could get them from better houses if they chose.

16,013. Would you say that J. & R. Morley & Co.; Copestake, Moore, & Co.; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Fletcher & Sons, Manchester; J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; Mann, Byars, & Co. Glasgow; George Peek, Manchester, Vesey & Sons, London; Allan & French, London, were second-class houses?-No; but I should like to know the extent of business which the merchants here do with them, and whether they deal wholesale with them or not.

16,014. Would you be surprised to hear that Shetland merchants engaged in the hosiery trade obtain the bulk of their goods from such houses as these?-I should say that perhaps that was the truth, but I should like to know the whole truth about the matter, because [Page 406] these houses, large as they may be, have certain clearances occasionally, which it may suit a people such as those of Shetland to take. I know at least one instance of a large quantity of that class of goods coming down in the steamer, and being damaged by a cask of porter being burst upon them, and a claim was made upon the Leith and Clyde Shipping Co. for something like 50 per cent. of profit, because it was a job lot which had been bought from big houses of that kind.

16,015. But I suppose there are job lots bought by almost every house at times?-Yes, but that has been the system here; in fact it has been stated by people in these big businesses, that they did get rid of their over-season's goods in that way.

16,016. I suppose over-season's goods come to all parts of the rural districts of Scotland?-I am not aware of that, but they may do so.

16,017. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing that I am aware of.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, CHARLES OLLASON, examined.

16,018. You are a member of the firm of Charles Ollason & Son, bootmakers, Lerwick?-Yes.

16,019. Did you receive that letter [showing] from Mr. Williamson?-Yes. [The following letter was put in:-] 'Haggersta, Jan. 20th 71.' 'Messrs. Charles Ollason & Son. 'Dear Sirs,-I am sorry to say that by some misunderstanding I did not get the wages that I expected to get; for instead of a 3/4th I only got a 1/2 share, and therefore instead of £18 I only got £12. I was due Mr. Stove £4 from the year that I was at the fishing from him, and he handed in that bill against me to Mr. Irvine, who retained that for him, so in that way I had nothing to get at all. Therefore I am sorry to say that I cannot pay the 15s. that I am due you for the boots that I got in August, and I beg that you will wait till the turn of the season, and then I hope that I will be able to pay you, for I am signed to go in the 'Olive' as a sharesman. If you cannot wait till then, you will be so good as to let me know. You will make out a bill, and I will sign it and hand it in to Mr. Irvine, and let it be marked against me, and then you will be sure of your money then-for it is entirely out of my power to pay you any other way just now. I beg that you will comply with my request, as I can't do better.-Your humble Debtor,

'M. Williamson,
'Haggersta,
'Whiteness.'

16,020. Was that letter written to you by him in answer to a demand for payment of your account?-Yes.

16,021. Were you surprised to get a letter of that kind explaining the reasons why your account was not paid?-We were not very much surprised, for we believed the facts to be just as he stated them.

16,022. Did you think it a reasonable enough explanation he was not able to pay you?-Yes; it was reasonable enough for him.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN WALKER, recalled.

16,023. I now show you Messrs. Hay & Co.'s store ledger, kept by William Halcrow, their storekeeper here: was Halcrow the party referred to in the report which you mentioned in your evidence?- If Messrs. Hay & Co. say he is their superintendent, he is the same individual.

16,024. Is Messrs. Hay & Co.'s the largest establishment of that kind in Lerwick?-I understand so.

16,025. And the party mentioned in the report describes himself as superintendent of the largest establishment in this place?-Yes, general superintendent, and the other is described as the manager of the working department. The general superintendent is the one who signs his name, and the other is the one who signs with a cross, and they are the parties who speak about the resources of science and art.

16,026. Is the book I now show you kept in a fair enough mercantile hand?-Fair enough.

16,027. Would, you be surprised to hear that it was kept by William Halcrow?-I would not. The reason why I mentioned this matter at all was to show the subserviency of the people in Shetland,-that they are accustomed to do what they are bidden,- that they are ready to sign their names to what they really cannot understand, if they think it is doing a favour to any one above them.

16,028. Do you think Halcrow was incapable of understanding such a phrase as the resources of science and art?-I think so, as it is applied here; because I may mention that in the correspondence which passed before, and which refers to the same parties, they said they did not know that whales had skins.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ARTHUR LAURENSON, recalled.

16,029. I understand you have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Walker with regard to the merchants in Lerwick, and that you wish to make some explanation in regard to it?-I have not heard it, but the substance of it has been reported to me since I entered the room. I have been told that he said that the merchants in Lerwick buy from second-class houses, and pay for their goods by consignments of hosiery. I wish to refute that, so far as I am concerned; and I refer to Messrs. J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; John Clapperton & Co., Glasgow, and Geo. Peek & Co., Manchester, as a proof that I deal with first-class houses.

16,030. Are these the only houses with which you deal?-No; I deal with a good many more.

16,031. Are there any houses from which you get portions of your goods which might be characterized as second-class houses?-No.

16,032. Is it the case that you ever get job lots or over-seasons goods?-Never, unless in the ordinary way of trade. Perhaps an article may be shown to me by a traveller occasionally, but only one pattern out of fifty which may be described as a job lot.

16,033. You do not get in a larger proportion of these goods than other dealers in other country towns?-No; I never bought a job lot altogether in my life. We never pay by consignments of hosiery.

16,034. Is there anything further you wish to state?-At the close of my last examination I wished to make objection to the credibility of a witness. I was asked to state it privately, and I now hand in paper with regard to it. [Produces paper.]

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

16,035. Do you wish to concur with Mr. Laurenson in the statement which he has now made?-Yes. The only difference is that I deal with more houses in London.

16,036. The list of houses which I read from in putting a question to Mr. Walker was furnished by you?-Yes; but it does not include one half of the houses that I deal with. I wish also to say that I have now been 25 years in business, and I never to this day exchanged 2d. worth of hosiery goods for goods in the [Page 407] south. I do not mean to say that I have not bought hosiery goods for goods here, but I have never exchanged them in the south for other goods.*

16,037. Does any one present wish to give any further evidence?- [No answer.] Then I adjourn this inquiry. I have to think the Commissioners of Supply for the use of this room, which they have kindly furnished to me; and I have also to return my thanks to all parties in Shetland with whom I have met, for the courtesy which I have received from them, and for the readiness which they have shown in furnishing me with all information which I required.

*Mr. Linklater also, on the same day, sent the following letter to the Commissioner, referring to the same subject:-

LERWICK, 31st January 1872. W. GUTHRIE, Esq.

Sir,-I am sorry that I was absent when Mr. Walker in his evidence before you today stated, as I have been told, that the merchants here bartered their goods in exchange for drapery goods from second-class warehouses in the south. I beg to state that I have been thirty-seven years in business here, and have paid cash for all the goods ever I bought, and beg to refer you to the following houses from whom I get my goods.-I am, sir, yours very respectfully,

ROBERT LINKLATER.

J. & W. Campbell & Co., Glasgow; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; Anderson & Co., Glasgow; J. Clapperton & Co., Glasgow; Chamberlain & Birrell, Glasgow; John Howell & Co., St. Paul s, London; Fandel, Phillips, & Co., Newgate Street, London; Hutton & Co., Newgate Street, London; D. Hyam, Houndsditch, London; Copestake, Moore, & Co., London; George Peek & Co, Manchester; Hall, Russell, & Co., Bradford.

LERWICK: MONDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 1872

<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.

<Mr. Guthrie>.-As I have been detained here longer than I expected, owing to the state of the weather, I have held this sitting to-day in order to examine some witnesses who were formerly suggested to me by gentlemen in Lerwick, and whom I was not able to call before closing the previous sittings, and also some others who I think may be useful in supplementing the evidence already taken.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. JOAN WINWICK or FORDYCE, examined.

16,038. Do you live in Chromate Lane, Lerwick?-Yes.

16,039. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is a pensioner. He was a carpenter to trade, but he does nothing now.

16,040. Do you knit worsted work?-Yes, I knit, but for myself only. I knit with my own wool, and sell the goods.

16,041. Have you never knitted with merchants' wool?-No.

16,042. To whom do you generally sell your hosiery?-I always sold it to Mr. Robert Sinclair since he became a merchant. I always knit haps or coarse shawls.

16,043. What do you pay for the worsted which you use in knitting?-When I buy the worsted it is 2d. per hundred; but when I buy the wool and spin it myself, it comes to be a great deal dearer. We cannot get proper worsted to buy, and we have to manufacture it with our own hands.

16,044. Is the worsted which you buy at 2d. per hundred the kind which you use for a hap of ordinary quality?-Yes.

16,045. At what price do you sell a hap two yards in size made of that worsted?-Perhaps about 10s.

16,046. Have you any of these haps in hand just now?-No.

16,047. Have you sold any lately?-No; I have not sold any this winter. I have not been knitting this winter to sell. I have just been doing things for my own family.

16,048. What else have you knitted besides haps?-I have knitted nothing but haps for a good while. Since I could not see to do finer work I have been spinning worsted and making frocks for my husband, and stockings and things of that sort.

16,049. Where do you buy your worsted?-I have not bought any worsted for a long time. I always bought the wool and spun it myself, because I could not get the worsted to buy.

16,050. Where did you buy your wool?-I buy skins from the women who sell the sheep, and get the wool ru'ed off the sheep when they are killed.

16,051. Are there women who go about and sell wool in that way?-They sell mutton, but they will sell wool to us when we go to their houses and ask them for it.

16,052. Do these women buy the whole sheep?-Yes, they buy them alive; and when they have killed them, they sell the mutton to any person in the town who will buy it.

16,053. Are there many such women?-I suppose there are a few, but I cannot say how many.

16,054. Is that the way in which many people get their supply of wool for spinning?-I think it is, because we cannot get wool in any other way.

16,055. How much wool do you buy at a time?-I have bought 10s. or 12s. worth at a time,-just the skin as I could get it.

16,056. How much do you think you pay for the wool per lb. in that way?-I have seen it cost me 2s. and 16d. and 18d.; but it has been higher of late since the wool became so dear.

16,057. Is not that a very high price for it?-Yes.

16,058. Is it not more commonly about 1s. per lb.?-Yes. When I came to Lerwick it was 1s., 8d., and 6d.

16,059. Is it not still to be got at 1s. per lb.?-Perhaps it may be in country places, where they have plenty of it; but I cannot get it for 1s. unless it is very coarse, and a great deal of refuse in it.

16,060. How much wool does it take to make a hap two yards square?-About 2 lbs. That would be 16 hundreds or cuts.

16,061. Are you speaking all this time of a hap of the ordinary quality?-Yes, the ordinary quality.

16,062. Do you know what a woman gets for knitting a hap of that kind when it is given out?-I cannot say exactly; but I think they give some knitters for plain work only 2d. per hundred, or perhaps a little more. That is what they say they get for knitting plain work.

16,063. Do they count the payment of the knitting by hundreds?-I suppose some of them do, but I have never put out any to knit myself, or taken any in to knit.

16,064. Then for a hap like that, if there were 16 hundreds in it, the knitter would get only 2s. 8d. for the knitting?-Yes; but I think that for knitting borders they get a little more. It is for plain frocks that they say they get 2d. per hundred.

16,065. Are you always paid in goods for your work?-Mr. Sinclair always gave me what I asked. When I asked a little money I got it, and when I required goods for my family, such as soap, soda, or tea, I got them too.

16,066. But I suppose it was understood that you were to be paid in goods?-Yes, that was the custom of the place; but he always trusted me with anything I wanted, if I happened to be due him something at times.

[Page 408]

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. ROSINA DUNCAN or SMITH, examined.

16,067. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,068. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is turning an old man now, but he was at the sea at one time.

16,069. Has he got a pension?-No.

16,070. Do you employ yourself in knitting?-I knit a little for my own family.

16,071. Have you given up knitting for other people-Yes.

16,072. Did you knit for Mr. Sinclair at one time?-I sold him a few haps last year.

16,073. Did you sell him a great number before that-I did not; but when I had any little things I sold them to Mr. Joseph Leask, and got money articles for them.

16,074. Did you ever sell so many as half a dozen to Sinclair?-I cannot say, for I did not count them. The last one I sold was to him.

16,075. What did you get for it?-12s.

16,076. How much wool was in it?-I cannot say, for I spun it myself, and wrought it until it was done.

16,077. Do you not know how many cuts of worsted were in it?- No; I did not count them.

16,078. What was the size of it?-I suppose it would be about two yards.

16,079. Was it made of fine wool or ordinary wool?-It was just the ordinary wool that is used for haps.

16,080. Were you paid in money or in goods for it?-I was paid mostly in goods, but he gave me money without my asking for it.

16,081. How much money did you get?-1s. or so. I could not exactly say how much, but he gave me what I required. I got the goods which I required, and he gave me that money, and he also gave me tea, which was the same as money, because if I had had to buy it I would have had to pay for it.

16,082. Could you get money for the tea?-I did not sell it; I kept it for my own use.

16,083. Did you ever sell anything that you got for hosiery?-No. I always required anything I got for my own family.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, examined.

16,084. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,085. Do you do anything else?-I keep lodgers. They are generally workmen, such as masons.

16,086. Do you knit a good deal?-No; all that I do in that way is very trifling. It is generally fine veils that I knit.

16,087. Who do you sell them to?-Mr. Sinclair; I work for him; he gives me the worsted. It is Scotch worsted that I get, but I don't know the quality of it, nor the price.

16,088. Have you got any of these veils in hand just now?-Yes, I have a few that I am knitting.

16,089. Do you knit with your own wool at all?-No, I only work for him.

16,090. How much do you get for knitting one of these veils?- From 16d. to 1s., according to the quality as it is coarse or fine.

16,091. Do you get more for knitting one of fine worsted than one of coarse?-Yes.

16,092. Will you bring one of the veils that you are knitting just now and let me see it?-Yes,

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.

16,093. Do you live with your mother in Baker's Close, Lerwick?-Yes.

16,094. What do you do?-I sometimes knit, and sometimes sew; but I mostly knit. My mother knits sometimes, and does the house-work.

16,095. Do you support yourself mostly by knitting?-Yes, almost entirely.

16,096. What kind of knitting do you do?-Fine veils and shawls.

16,097. Are you paid for them in money or in goods?-Always in goods.

16,098. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never asked for it.

16,099. Do you get money for your sewing?-Yes. I sew to private people, and they always pay me in money.

16,100. Where do you buy your provisions?-From any shop I like. I don't go to any one in particular.

16,101. Where do you get the money for that?-From my sewing.

16,102. Do you get all the money that you require for provisions by your sewing?-No. We generally keep a lodger or two when we can get them.

16,103. Would you not prefer to get some money for your knitting?-Yes; but it never was the practice to ask for it, and therefore I never thought of doing so.

16,104. Would you not be better off if you had money for your knitting, which you could spend upon provisions?-I think I would be; but I never thought of asking it, as it is not the usual thing.

16,105. What kind of goods do you get for your knitting?-Tea, sugar, soft goods, groceries, or any kind of goods that are in the shop.

16,106. Do you get most of the dress for yourself in that way?- Yes.

16,107. Do you knit a greater number of articles than are sufficient to supply yourself with dress?-Yes.

16,108. What do you do with them?-I buy anything that is required for the house.

16,109. Do you sometimes get goods for your friends if they want any?-No, I generally require all I get for myself.

16,110. You don't get provisions for your knitting?-No.

16,111. Do you get enough money for your sewing and from your lodgers to supply you with provisions all the year round?-Yes; it has always done so in time past.

16,112. Is there anybody living in family with you except your mother?-No.

16,113. What is the usual price that you get for your fine shawls?-We generally get 10s. or 12s., but that is not the very finest worsted either.

16,114. Are these shawls knitted with the merchant's worsted?- Yes.

16,115. It is always given out to you, and you keep an account?- Yes.

16,116. Do you know what quality of worsted it is that you knit one of these shawls with?-It is usually Shetland worsted. The price of it is 31/2d., and some of it 4d. per cut; at least I would think so, judging by the fineness of the worsted.

16,117. Have you sometimes bought worsted yourself?-Yes, sometimes.

16,118. Have you bought it often enough to know the quality and price?-Yes.

16,119. What size of shawl is it that you get 12s. for?-About 21/4 yards. That, is, 25 scores on each border, and there are four borders in the square.

16,120. Then you could say quite positively that for a shawl of 25 scores, knitted with 31/2d. worsted, and measuring 21/4 yards, you got 12s. in goods?-Yes.

16,121. Do you ever sell shawls to any persons except the merchants?-No.