Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (14)

3625. You say that the tenants on the estate of Mr. Bruce of Simbister, with the exception of those on the island of Whalsay, and Whalsay Skerries, are free to fish for whom they like: what is the nature of the obligation under which the tenants in the island of Whalsay lie?-There is only one fish-curing establishment there, and the men could not conveniently fish out of the island. We have a place rented from the proprietor as a curing establishment, with booths and beaches, and all curing preparations made for receiving their fish; and it is an understood thing that the tenants are to deliver the fish to us at the current price of the country.

3626. That is not an obligation that enters into any written lease?-No; it is merely an understanding with the proprietor. We have no lease of the island.

3627. Is it a condition of the verbal tacks of the [Page 87] tenants, that they shall fish for you?-Yes; they are made to understand that they are to deliver their fish to us at the current price.

3628. That applies to the home fishing?-To the home fishing only. The Whalsay men are not engaged in any other fishing.

3629. They don't go to the Faroe fishing at all?-No.

3630. Is yours the only shop upon that island?-The only shop.

3631. Have you an establishment at the Out Skerries too?-Do you mean at the Skerries lying to the eastward, where the boats deliver their fish?

3632. Yes.-No, we have no establishment for supplying the people with goods; but we have beach boys and curing materials at the Skerries to the east of Whalsay.

3633. Is there not a firm who have an establishment there?-Yes, at Skerries; but that is a different Skerries, which lies farther out beyond where the lighthouse is. There is more than one curer there, but the Whalsay men don't deliver any of their fish at that place.

3634. It is at the Out Skerries where other firms have establishments-both shops and curing places?-Yes; but we have nothing there.

3635. Do the Whalsay people fish for these other firms at the Out Skerries?-No.

3636. Where do their fishermen come from?-From Lunnasting, Delting, Nesting, and other places.

3637. They are not inhabitants of the islands?-No.

3638. Then the establishment at Out Skerries is a temporary one?-No. I think one curer has an establishment there all the year round, and a factor; but the fishermen don't live there all the year round. They live in huts during the fishing, and go home to their families when the fishing is over.

3639. You say that some of the men fish to one curer and some to another, as they find convenient: in that statement do you refer to the Simbister estate, with the exception of Whalsay?-Yes, with the exception of Whalsay. It includes Whalsay also, so far as the cattle, ponies, hosiery, and other things are concerned. There is no restriction on them selling these where they like; it is simply the fish they take in the island that we expect to get.

3640. In Whalsay, are the fishermen expected to deal only in your store for their fishing materials and the supplies for their families?-That is quite optional. They can take their supplies from our store; and suppose they take most of them there, because it is more convenient for them than to go anywhere else.

3641. In point of fact they have no option, because there is no other shop in Whalsay?-There is not, but they can go to Lerwick, and they do go there sometimes. I think the note I have given in as to Burra answers that question.

3642. Is there any restriction on the establishment of other shops in Whalsay?-There is no means for any person opening a shop there. There is no shop, and no building, and no right to build in the island without the proprietor's liberty. There is only the one shop there.

3643. What is the population of the island?-I don't think the census of last year would show that, because it is mixed up with other parts of the parish.

3644. Have you any idea how many fishermen are employed by you in the island?-Yes, I can tell that. We have twenty-seven fully-manned boats, each with six men and boys. These are the fishermen; but there are tenants who are not fishermen, and fishermen who are not tenants.

3645. That would give a total of 162 fishermen employed by you, but some of them may be members of the same family?-Yes.

3646. Are there many tenants who are not fishermen?-Not very many.

3647. Have there been any applications for liberty to establish a new shop in the island of Whalsay?-No.

3648. You have never, in your capacity as factor for Mr. Bruce, received an application for ground for that purpose?-Never.

3649. Would you have any objection to grant such permission if it were asked?-Although I am acting as factor for Mr. Bruce, the granting or refusal of such an application would depend entirely upon the proprietor.

3650. I suppose you cannot tell whether he would refuse it or not?-I cannot tell. In fact we have the only curing establishment there. We have the beaches, and all the preparations for curing, and there could be no other establishment in Whalsay.

3651. I am not speaking of an establishment for fish-curing; but suppose a merchant wished to establish a shop there for the sale of provisions and soft goods, do you think he would meet with a refusal from Mr. Bruce?-I cannot answer that question.

3652. In Whalsay you are only factors for Mr. Bruce, not lessees of the island?-We are not lessees. I act as Mr. Bruce's factor.

3653. Yet, notwithstanding that, the islanders are bound to fish for any one to whom the proprietor lets the fish-curing establishment?-Yes; on the understanding with the curer, that he pays the same price as other curers in the country pay for the produce of the fishing.

3654. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce for your booths and curing establishment; and in consideration of that rent it is understood that the tenants are bound to deliver their fish to you?-Yes.

3655. Have the fishermen refused, in any cases within your experience, to fulfil that obligation? Have they smuggled their fish away, or endeavoured to evade that stipulation?-I understand that before we came to the island they smuggled a great part of their fish away to other curers, but, so far as I can learn, I don't think they smuggle any of them away now. I believe we have got the whole procedure.

3656. How long is it since you got the island?-I think it is five or six years ago.

3657. Who was the merchant before?-The proprietor received their fish himself.

3658. Suppose a fisherman were to bring his fish to Lerwick, or take them to Skerries or any other station, and sell them, would the result be, that he would have to leave his farm?-I cannot say what the result would be if he were to do so, because we have never been aware of any single case where a fisherman went past us with his fish.

3659. But if he did so, would you consider yourselves entitled to remove him?-No, not to remove him; but we would consider ourselves entitled to complain to Mr. Bruce.

3660. And he would remove him?-If he thought proper.

3661. You say that in 1870, after deducting advances, you paid the men in that island £1222: would the number of men fishing for you at that time be about the same that you have now?-I think there were 155 in 1870.

3662. That sum of £1222 was the amount of cash balances due to them and paid to them at the end of the year?-Yes; and which, when paid, left them entirely clear in our books.

3663. Was their rent paid in account with you?-These were the payments to the fishermen. The tenants would pay their rents to me as factor separately out of that sum.

3664. But in what form are your accounts made up?-My factory accounts are kept entirely free from our fishing accounts.

3665. The payment of rent there would be made at the same time when you went to settle with your fishermen?-Yes.

3666. I presume you gave them a separate receipt for their rents, and entered the payment in a separate factory book?-Yes.

3667. Is the form of accounting with the fishermen in Whalsay the same as you use in your dealings with your other fishermen?- Quite the same.

3668. Have they pass-books at the shop?-Some of them have pass-books, and some have not.

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3669. I suppose that in the name of each fisherman, there is an account in the books kept at the shop?-Every fisherman has a page for himself.

3670. In it all the goods furnished to him or to his family are entered on the one side?-Yes.

3671. Is there a credit side to the account?-Yes. When we settle with him, we give him credit for his share of the fishing.

3672. Is there a separate fishing-book?-There is a book kept by the fish factor, in which he enters the fish as he receives them.

3673. He is a separate man from the shopman?-Yes; he keeps a separate book, in which the green fish as they are received are entered in name of the company or crew.

3674. Is a bargain made with the fishermen at the beginning of the year?-Sometimes, but not often. Where there is no bargain made with them, the general understanding is, that the men get what supplies they require, and that they get also the current price of the season for their fish.

3675. That is the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.

3676. Are they entitled to one-half of the take?-Not in this case. They get the whole of their take. It is a different agreement altogether from that which obtains in the case of the smacks that prosecute the cod fishing at Faroe. In this case the boat and lines belong to the men themselves, and the whole of their catch belongs to them. At the end of the season their catch is added up and divided, and, after any company expenses are taken off, the rest is divided among the men.

3677. How are they valued?-The fish are weighed green and measured, and the weight is entered in the factor's book. They deliver to us twice or thrice a week, and at the end of the season the whole is added up and converted into money.

3678. How do you estimate the money value then?-Just according to the price of the fish for the year.

3679. But the price you pay is for cured fish?-No; the price of cured fish is what we obtain for them when we sell them ready for market.

3680. Then the price paid to the men is the price for green fish?- Yes; a different thing altogether.

3681. Do you pay the men according to the price of green fish at the end of the season?-Yes, a certain price per cwt.

3682. How much will a cwt. of green fish weigh when cured?-It is reckoned that 21/4 cwt. of green fish will make 1 cwt. of dry fish.

3683. Then, in fixing the price of green fish at the end of the season, the principal consideration is what the price of cured fish may be?-Yes, the price which cured fish bring in the market.

3684. You ascertain the price of cured fish, and calculate from that what price you are to allow to the fishermen for the green fish throughout the season?-Yes.

3685. Is the sale of cured fish going on during the autumn and winter, or are your sales generally later?-The sales are generally, made in the months of September and October. The bulk of the ling is sold in these months.

3686. Would it not be equally convenient to fix the price of the green fish about the time when your sales are made?-It is about that time that the price of the green fish is fixed, and we settle immediately afterwards.

3687. I understood your settlement was not made until later?-It is generally in November. In some cases we may settle in the beginning or December.

3688. But with some merchants the settling time is later, is it not?-They generally begin to settle about November, and I think they mostly all settle about November or December.

3689. I think some statements have been made to the effect that the settlement goes on as late in the year as February. I don't think those statements were made with reference to your firm, but rather had reference to others: do you know whether that is so?-I think we have settled with most of our fishermen now.

3690. But don't you know the practice of other firms?-It is sometimes not convenient to settle until further on in the season, and I think Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh has not settled yet. But there is a reason for that: he has been out of the country.

3691. In point of fact, is it not the usual practice that the settlement does not take place until January or February?-The settlements generally begin very soon after Martinmas, and continue until perhaps about the end of the year. In some cases they may as late as January or February.

3692. Is there any reason for that?-None; except that people cannot get all their work done at one time. They must take one district before another.

3693. Are your settlements later in some districts than they are at Whalsay?-In some districts they are later.

3694. They may be protracted up to the New Year?-Yes, frequently.

3695. Have you completed all your settlements now?-We have completed all our settlements, with the exception of Burra. We have not settled with the men there yet, but we shall commence to settle with them immediately.

3696. Are the fishermen consulted with regard to the fixing of the current price at the end of the season?-I think very seldom; but it is quite an easy matter to know that the merchant can afford to give after he has sold his fish, and every fish-curer is very anxious to give the highest possible price he can afford to the fisherman, for the sake of securing his services another year.

3697. But this rule cannot apply to Whalsay, because there the fishermen are bound to fish?-Yes; but we are bound to pay the fishermen there the same price as is paid by the other curers through the country. The curers very often pay a higher current price than they can afford, just from a desire to get the people's services in the following year.

3698. The fish-curers markets, I suppose, are over all the world?- Yes.

3699. Are they to a considerable extent in Spain?-Yes, for the cod. A great deal of the cod is sold there. The ling is sold in Leith, Glasgow, Ireland, and in London. There is not much of it goes to Spain.

3700. Is there any understanding among the fish-merchants in Shetland, after their sales have been made in September, as to what the current price is to be held to be?-That is scarcely necessary, because, when they have sold their dry fish, they know exactly how far they can go with their fishermen.

3701. Do you mean that each curer knows from his own sales?- Yes; each curer knows exactly. When we sold our fish this year at £23, we knew what we could pay our fishermen without losing money. We knew that we could not exceed 8s. per cwt.

3702. But, in point of fact, is there any communication between the Shetland fish-merchants on that subject?-It is quite possible that after the fish are sold, the fish-merchants may converse together on the subject if they happen to meet.

3703. Is a meeting held for the purpose of fixing the current price?-No.

3704. Has there ever been a practice of holding such meetings?- Not that I ever heard of.

3705. Is there any correspondence entered into between the fish-merchants for the purpose of ascertaining the average price?-I don't know that there is any correspondence entered into specially for that purpose; but it is quite possible that, when one curer is writing to another, the subject may be mentioned.

3706. Am I to understand you to say that there is no practice of meeting for the purpose of fixing the price, and that such a meeting never has been held, to your knowledge?-I cannot say what meetings have been held; but I am not aware of any meeting having ever been held for such a purpose. I have not attended any such meeting.

3707. Then is it quite correct to say, as you say [Page 89] here, that the price paid to the fishermen for their fish is the current price of the country?-Yes.

3708. Is it not rather the price which each fish-merchant estimates that he can afford to give?-The price which each fish-merchant pays makes the current price of the country; and, so far as I know, the price that the fish-curers in Shetland have got this year for dry fish has been £23 per. ton. They have all been sold at the same price to south-country merchants.

3709. You believe there has been no difference?-I don't think there has been any difference this year at all.

3710. But in one part of your statement you point out that the sum, left as remuneration to the curer for the season's work is not very large: does not that rather go to show that the fish-curer does not take into consideration so much the current price as the price which is actually paid to him for his fish?-It is the price that he receives for his fish which enables him to say exactly what price he can afford to pay to the fishermen. I think the curers this year have all been paid the same price for ling, and I believe it was considered a very high price.

3711. Is there generally much difference in the prices which different curers get?-Very seldom; sometimes 10s. or sometimes £1. If there is a great demand for fish, some merchants, by holding on later than others, may obtain an advance of that amount, and in that case they might give their fishermen a little more. Perhaps they do so, and get more of them to fish for them another year.

3712. But the fishermen who are bound to fish for a particular merchant don't get the benefit of such an increased price?-There are not very many fishermen bound to fish, so far as I know; only a few cases.

3713. To return to Whalsay: you say there are very few debts in the books there, and that the people are considered to be in good circumstances?-There are almost no debts due to Hay & Co. there.

3714. Therefore, in settling, there is universally a balance in favour of the fishermen?-Universally the balance is in favour of the fishermen, and sometimes they are pretty large balances.

3715. Can you speak to the prices at which goods are sold in the shop at Whalsay? Is it the market price in Lerwick?-We charge the Lerwick prices at Whalsay, with a small addition to cover the expenses of transit.

3716. What may be the percentage of that addition?-I cannot say; it varies. Perhaps it would be 21/2 per cent. additional. The men being free, we are desirous sell as low as possible, in order to secure their custom, because they are very near Lerwick, and they can perhaps supply themselves elsewhere.

3717. You say in your statement, 'The Shetland fishermen have been represented as ignorant and uneducated. This is a great mistake. They are as intelligent, shrewd, and capable of attending to their own interest as any similar class of men in Scotland.' I have no doubt that is quite true; but do you think they are equally independent in character with other Scotchmen?-So far as I am able to judge, they are.

3718. Don't you think they are a little shy about speaking out their minds to their employers?-I cannot say what they do with others, but they speak pretty freely to us.

3719. Do you think the Whalsay men would tell you if they desired to be released from the condition in their tack obliging them to fish for you, or that they would strike if they felt it to be an obnoxious condition?-The Whalsay men have told me repeatedly that they are far better off at present than they have ever been in time past. They are not in debt to the fish-curer, and their rents are well paid.

3720. I presume you would not allow them to get very deep into your debt at the shop?-We have never had occasion to restrict their advances very much. We could not allow them to get very deep; but, as yet, we have not had occasion to restrict their advances.

3721. Are the advances made to the fishermen during the course of the season generally made by way of supplying them with goods at the shop?-They can get any supplies they want at the shop, or money either if they require it, during the course of the season.

3722. If they want money, to whom do they apply for it?-To the fish factor there.

3723. What is about the extent of advances made to the fishermen in the course of the year?-It varies very much. Some of them, I suppose, have not 10s in the whole course of the year,-perhaps they go and deal with some other person; while others may have £5 or £6, or more.

3724. You say that some have not 10s. of advances: do you mean money advances?-They get any money they want.

3725. But how much cash is advanced during the year by your fish factor in Whalsay?-I have stated how much the produce came to, and how much we paid in money at the end of the year. [Exhibits statement.]

3726. That brings out the amount of cash advanced during the year to be about £362?-Yes.

3727. So that the amount of advances in goods or on account would come to about £920?-Yes; that was in 1870. I believe the proportion of money is greater for the past year, because we paid them a larger sum of money.

3728. Would the amount of goods taken this year be less or greater than in the previous year?-I think the goods would be less this year, because the men, having made a very good fishing in the previous year, had less occasion to take supplies from the shop; and therefore I think we would be giving them more money in the course of this year than we did formerly.

3729. You think the result of the good fishing in the previous year would be, that the men dealt less at your shop?-They had no occasion to take so large supplies.

3730. How were they supplied with meal and other necessaries?- They had better crops, and did not require them.

3731. I thought you said that was owing to the good fishing?-To the good fishing and the good crops.

3732. You don't mean to say that they came oftener to Lerwick for their provisions?-I cannot say how often they came to Lerwick. They are quite at liberty to come here when they please.

3733. But the fact that there was a good fishing would lessen the amount of dealing at the shop?-There was a good fishing and a good crop; they had got a large sum of money in the previous year, and many of them very likely had that money beside them, except what they had lodged in bank; and they could buy for ready money at the shop instead of entering it in the book

3734 Then one effect of a good fishing is, that the men buy at your shop for ready money rather than by running up an account?-Yes, frequently

3735. Do you know whether many of the fishermen in Whalsay and elsewhere have large deposits in savings banks or other banks?-I believe there are very large sums at their credit in the Union Bank, which has been established longest here.

3736. Of course you have no personal knowledge of that?-No; but if you had power to command a sight of the bank books, I believe the sum would astonish you.

3737. There is no savings bank here except the post office savings bank?-No.

3738. The Burra men are employed by you in the home fishing, and those of them who choose in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

3739. But in Burra, as in Whalsay, the men are bound to fish for you in the home fishing?-The men are bound to deliver us their home fish. That fishing, however, is carried on now only to a very small extent. Most of the men in Burra are otherwise employed.

3740. How many boats have you engaged in the home fishing from Burra?-They vary. There are a few boats that fish in spring, and there are a few men [Page 90] who stop at home all summer, and fish then; so that at one time there are a good number, and at another time not half so many.

3741. Are these Burra men under an obligation which forms part of their verbal tack?-The men who stop at home are under an obligation, at least it is an understood thing that they are to deliver their fish to us.

3742. Is there any written obligation to that effect?-No; but in point of fact they could deliver them nowhere else, because we have the stations on the islands.

3743. Could they not deliver them for salting and curing in Scalloway?-Yes; but Scalloway is such great distance from the curing stations, that they are much better off as they are.

3744. Are there no curing stations at Scalloway?-There are; but Scalloway is such a great distance from Burra, that the men could not go there every time they came from the fishing.

3745. Is the island of Trondra in your hands?-Yes; it belongs to the Earl of Zetland.

3746. Have you a curing station there?-No.

3747. Do the Trondra people deliver their fish at Burra or Scalloway?-I don't know if there are any Trondra people fishing for us. They deliver at Scalloway any fish they get.

3748. There is no obligation upon them to fish for you?-No.

3749. And, in point of fact, you think they don't do it?-We get none of their fish at Burra. It is possible they may deliver some to our men at Scalloway.

3750. Was there an obligation signed by some of the Burra men some years ago, binding them to fish for you?-Some years ago, after a series of bad crops and bad fishings, the islands had got largely in our debt, and in order to get the sons to help the fathers to pay their rents, which we were bound to pay for them every year, we got them to sign an obligation.

3751. Was that about eight years ago?-I think it would be about that time. It was about the time when we were getting a renewal of the lease. However, that obligation was found to be unworkable and was laid aside, and has never been acted on.

3752. What were its terms?-I cannot recollect very well. The fishers at home were to be bound to deliver their fish to us.

3753. Some of the men did sign it?-Some of them did sign it; but some of them refused, and it was laid aside.

3754. Does the document exist?-Very likely it does. It is probably somewhere in the office, if it has not been destroyed; but immediately after it was signed it became quite a dead letter.

3755. Were not some of the men fined for delivering some of their fish elsewhere?-I have made a statement about that; but it was not for delivering their fish elsewhere.

3756. What men were so fined?-I think there were one or two of them; but I don't remember their names.

3757. Was Peter Smith one of them?-Very possibly.

3758. Do you remember whether the money was returned to him?-I think it was, so far as I remember. I think any fines that were imposed were returned.

3759. You found that the exaction of this fine did not tend to make the men more willing to deliver their fish to you?-The fines were not imposed for not delivering their fish. The object of the fines was to compel the sons to assist the fathers.

3760. But the fine was imposed upon the father?-Yes.

3761. Then the obligation we have been speaking of was an obligation binding not only the tenant, but also the members of his family?-Yes. So far as I know, none of the tenants delivered any of their fish to us except what we get at present. Any of the tenants who are fishing in small boats on the coast deliver all their fish to us still.

3762. Are you aware of fish being smuggled to Scalloway, and sold to dealers there?-I am not.

3763. If that were the case would you consider that you were entitled to remove the men from their holdings in Burra?-There are only a very few men who engage in the home fishing now. The best of the fishermen are engaged fishing for other people at Faroe.

3764. It is only when a man actually does engage in the home fishing that he is obliged to deliver his fish to you?-Yes.

3765. If he chooses not to remain at home, or not to employ himself in that fishing, there is no obligation upon him?-No. If he chooses to remain at home, and employ himself fishing in small boats on the coast, there is an obligation on him to deliver his fish to us, but on all the other people there is no obligation, and most of them fish to other people out of the island. I have mentioned in my statement, that of the men engaged in the Faroe fishing, I think only about one-fourth are employed by Hay & Co.

3766. There is no allegation that the men are bound to engage to you in the Faroe fishing, and you say there is no obligation upon them to sell their farm produce to you?-We never interfere with the farm produce.

3767. Are you aware of cases in Shetland-I don't speak of your own dealings alone, but of your own dealings and those of other merchants-in which tenants are held bound in any way to sell their farm produce, their cattle, or their ponies, to fish-curers who are factors or tacksmen?-I am not aware of any such cases. It may be the case, but not within my knowledge.

3768. Is there any system of a kind of mortgage of the cattle in security for debts at the shops of fish-merchants?-It is quite possible that if man wants an advance he may promise to sell the merchant or the factor, or whoever he is, a cow or other animal at a certain season of the year, in order to repay him that advance; but I don't know of any other mortgage of that kind in the country.

3769. The mortgage may not be very much worth in law; but have you known cases in which a fish-merchant, being the sole or principal creditor of fisherman dealing at his store had so mortgaged his cattle, and that it was marked as belonging to the fish-merchant?-It is quite possible that may be done some cases, but the landlord has a preference over such cattle, so that such a mortgage would be of no value. A man may give a promise to sell a cow two or three months hence, and on that promise get an advance of a few pounds of money; but it depends entirely on the man's promise whether the money is paid or not, because the landlord can step in, if the tenant is in debt to him, and take his animal.

3770. That is, if the tenant owes the landlord anything and has not enough to pay the landlord's claim?-Yes.

3771. You don't know of any particular case of that sort?-I could not mention any particular case.

3772. And you don't know of fish-merchants or tacksmen who are in the habit, to a large extent, of squaring their debts in that way?-No; we don't do it.

3773. The fishermen in Burra are supplied with goods at your shop in Scalloway?-The statement I have given in contains an answer to that question. They not confined to deal at our stores. They can deal with any other curer or shopkeeper they choose.

3774. But, in point of fact, they generally deal at your shop in Scalloway?-They generally deal there, and in Lerwick too, if they want anything. If they want money, they generally come here.

3775. The Burra men deal at your shop on credit, and there is a settlement with them once a year?-Yes; the same as with the others.

3776. Is the book there kept in the same way as at Whalsay?-In the same way.

3777. Is it kept in the same way as the books for your other customers in Scalloway?-In the same way. Their supplies are charged against them at the end of the year, and we bring the book in here and settle with them.

3778. Is there a separate book for the Burra men at [Page 91] the Scalloway shop?-We keep a separate book for the Burra men's accounts in Lerwick.

3779. For their shop accounts?-For their shop accounts; and the fish factor has a separate book, which he marks the fish he receives from the men.

3780. What is the purpose of keeping a separate book for the Burra men here?-There are a good many names, and it is to keep them apart from others. At the end of the season we may be settling with them when the other books are in use in the office.

3781. You settle with the Burra men at Lerwick, and not at Scalloway?-Yes.

3782. But the shopkeeper at Scalloway sends in his accounts here before you settle with them?-Yes. The men call there and see the state of their account when they like, and then we get in a list of their debts to the shop. There is nothing entered to their credit there, but a list of the advances they have got from the shopkeeper at Scalloway is sent here.

3783. Their credits are all kept here?-Yes.

3784. Are your other fishermen in that quarter settled with here or at Scalloway?-They are settled here, for the most part.

3785. In this statement you have not told us anything about the amount of balances generally paid to the Burra men?-I have not, because we have not settled with them this year yet. I daresay, by looking over the books, I could tell you what we paid them last year and the years before. At this moment we are due the Burra people extremely little, because all the men who have been fishing in the smacks during the summer have been settled with, and got their money; and for the people who stopped at home and fished here, after we deduct their rents, we have very little money to pay them.

3786. You charge the rent in the account against them at Burra?- Yes.

3787. You do so because you are the tacksmen yourselves?-Yes.

3788. Then, in general, does any money pass at all in settling with the Burra men?-Yes; there are considerable sums in some cases.

3789. In settling with those of them who are Faroe fishers do you deduct the rent in their accounts also?-When any of the tenants are fishing in our smacks, we deduct the rent from what they have to receive.

3790. Do those men who fish at Faroe get their supplies at the Scalloway shop the same as the others?-They get their supplies there or here, as they find convenient.

3791. Have they generally an account in both shops?-Generally they have, except where we have occasion to restrict their advances.

3792. But if a man has an account in both shops, might there not be some difficulty in restricting his advance?-In that case we close the account at Scalloway, and give the man what he requires here; and then we can restrict his advances if we see it to be necessary.

3793. Have you often found it necessary, after bad fishing seasons, to make considerable advances to men in the way of provisions?- Yes, we have found that necessary, because the men could get supplies from nowhere else, and we were obliged to give them meal and other things in order to keep their families alive.

3794. Are you speaking of Burra and Whalsay, or of all your fishing stations?-Most of the shops that we have in the country are obliged to give large advances in the case of bad seasons. Three years ago the crops were very bad; the people had not seed to sow their land with; and we brought in a pretty large quantity of seed-corn and potatoes, which we supplied to the people in Yell.

3795. That was on the Gossaburgh estate, of which you are tacksmen?-Yes; and they have since then paid it up in full.

3796. Do you act in the same way with fishermen are not bound to fish for you?-If they were under any engagement-if they signed an obligation to deliver their fish to us-then we would do so.

3797. Whether they were on an estate under your management or not?-Yes.

3798. Have you sometimes made such engagements with them?- Occasionally we have.

3799. Was that with individual men?-Yes, with individual men when they wanted advances.

3800. That is to say, at the end of the fishing season, when you found on settling up that there was a balance against a man, and that he continued to want further supplies from your shop, you would enter into an engagement with him to fish to you next year?-Yes.

3801. Would that engagement be a verbal one?-Sometimes written and sometimes verbal.

3802. In that case the advances would be in the form of goods supplied at your shops?-Both money and goods. We would give him money if he asked for it.

3803. But the bulk of the advances would be in goods?-No. Money would frequently be given when they wanted a special advance.

3804. In a case of that kind, are your shopkeepers instructed to make the advance to the men in either way?-If a man wants an advance of £1 or £2 we make it to him ourselves, and the people when they want goods, go to the shop for them.

3805. At what time are these advances generally made?-During the winter or the spring seasons, before the fishing begins again.

3806. And during the autumn, before the settlement for the years fishing has come round?-Yes. They frequently get money during the summer.

3807. I suppose the settlement with your men in Lerwick takes place in the office and not in the shop?-Yes, in the office.

3808. When the men get their payments in money, are they at liberty to go where they like to spend them?-Yes; they get the money in their hands, and go away from us with it.

3809. Whether they are Burra men or Whalsay men or strangers?-Yes. We settle with the Whalsay men at Whalsay; but all the money that we give at the settlements here, the men go away with it out of the office.

3810. Is the settlement with the Whalsay men made in the shop?- No; they are settled with at the manor-house at Simbister.

3811. Where is the settlement made at Gossaburgh?-The settlement with the Yell tenants is made at the house of West Sandwick.

3812. Have you shops in Yell?-None.

3813. The fishermen there, however, are bound to deliver their fish to you?-Some of the Yell fishermen deliver their fish in summer at Fetlar, and others again deliver them at Northmavine.

3814. What is the extent of the Gossaburgh estate?-I suppose the rental is about £400 or £500, and I think the number of tenants is about 120.

3815. Are the whole of these men bound to fish to you alone?- Not the men sailing out of the country. It is only the men remaining at home and fishing there during the summer who are bound to fish to us.

3816. Who is the proprietor of the Gossaburgh estate?-Mrs. Henderson Robertson.

3817. In speaking of the rental, you refer to the rent paid by Messrs. Hay & Co. as lessees, which is about £500 a year?-Yes; I think it is between £400 and £500.

3818. What will the average rental of the holdings be?-Perhaps from 30s. to £5 or £6. There is one party who pays £65 or £70, but he is not a fisherman.

3819. What is the gross rental paid to you from the estate?-It will be seen from the valuation roll. I could not tell the gross rental off-hand, because it is a peculiar tack. We pay a certain fixed sum for it, and then we pay all the burdens on the estate, and it varies somewhat. It is more in one year than in another.

3820. Are the tacks under which you hold Burra and Gossaburgh in writing?-Yes, they are both written tacks.

3821. Do these tacks contain any reference to your [Page 92] rights with regard to fishing?-The tacks state that we are at liberty to let the lands, remove the tenants, and take new tenants, and that we are to pay certain sums for the ground. I don't remember whether there is anything specially mentioned about the fishings. I think in the Burra tack there is something about them it gives us right to all the fishings in the island. I am not sure that the original proprietor had not a Crown charter which gave him a right to the whole fishings, including oyster fishings and others; and I think we have the whole of these rights.

3822. Perhaps you will show me these two tacks, so that I may make an excerpt of any clause relating to the fishings?-I will do so. There is no clause in either lease relating to the obligation of the tenants to deliver their fish to the tacksmen.

3823. You say in your statement 'We have other curing stations at different parts of the islands, and employ a number of men and boys from all quarters during the summer months:' that refers to the home fishing?-To the home fishing solely.

3824. There are curing stations at places quite separate from any of the four properties you have been speaking of?-Yes.

3825. Where are they?-We have a curing station at Dunrossness; we have another station at Fetlar; and we cure to some extent at Scalloway, and also at Lerwick.

3826. At all of these stations have you shops from which you supply the men?-We have a shop at Scalloway, and another here. We have a factor at Fetlar, who supplies the fishermen with what they require; and we have a man at Dunrossness, who keeps supplies there also.

3827. At Dunrossness have you ever come into conflict with Mr. Bruce's people with regard to the sale of goods or the purchase of fish?-I think not.

3828. Is it understood there that you are to purchase from people who are not upon his lands?-We purchase from people who are not upon his lands, that is, from the Simbister or any other tenants, who are quite free.

3829. But not from the Sumburgh tenants?-They never offer us any of their fish, and we never ask them. We never interfere with Mr. Bruce's fishings.

3830. Do you ever purchase from the Quendale tenants?-No, I think not.

3831. You say fishings of all kinds succeed best when the men are paid by shares. When they are secured in monthly wages, there is no inducement for exertion. That is with reference to the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

3832. Do you form that opinion from your experience of both systems?-Yes, because on some occasions we have had to pay wages to the men; but that has been very seldom.

3833. I think in another part of your statement you say that, when an agreement to pay monthly wages has been made, the men sometimes, if the price has been high, have repudiated their bargain, and asked to be paid according to the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.

3834. Has that happened often?-No; very seldom. The men generally prefer to go on shares. There have been one or two occasions when we had to guarantee them monthly wages in order to induce them to go out to the fishing, but at the same time, if their share of the fish exceeded that monthly wage, they got it.

3835. Is it your opinion that it would be a wholesome change if the men were paid by wages, or that it is better for both parties that things should remain as they are?-I don't think it would be a good change to pay them by wages.

3836. Would it not tend to form more provident and careful habits among the fishermen if they knew exactly how much they were to receive?-I think it would be very much against the fishings if such a system were adopted. The men would not get nearly so many fish, and they would not earn so much money, if they were paid by wages, as they do at present. Some of the men who are fishing at the haaf earn as much £15 or £20 as during the summer, and they would not get any one to pay them wages of that amount.

3837. How much would that be per month?-Perhaps about £5 per month. No one would engage them at that figure.

3838. In the home fishing the boats generally belong to the men?-I think, for the most part, they do.

3839. Is it a common practice for the fish-curer to advance the money for a boat, or to supply the boat to the men and receive payment from them by instalments?-It is generally the understanding, that if a crew get a new boat, they pay up for it in three years. In some cases they are able to pay up for it in one year when there is a good fishing. I may mention one case in Dunrossness, the year before last, where six mem came to us and wanted a boat and lines. We gave them the advance, fitted them out, and supplied their families during the season, and at the end of the season they had earned with that boat and lines £200. The agreement was, that they were to pay for the boat in one year if they could; and if not, they were to get credit for three years. They paid up for this boat and lines clear, and had money to get at the end of the season.

3840. When an arrangement of that sort is entered into, is a certain sum deducted from the men's earnings at the end of the year in respect of the boat?-There is an account kept for the boat. If they pay one-third share the first year, it is taken off as a whole, and not taken off each individual.

3841. They are jointly and severally liable for the price of the boat?-Yes; they have a company account. The boat is charged to that account; and when they settle, there are two-thirds carried down to the debit of each man, and the rest is paid up.

3842. Then, in every case of that kind, there is a boat account separate from the accounts of the individual members of the crew?-Yes.

3843. And if any of the men have gone away from the country, or have got deep in debt before the boat is paid up, the other members of the crew remain liable for the whole amount?-They are liable in point of law, but it is very seldom they pay anything beyond their own share.

3844. When that comes to be paid out of the share of a man who has an individual account, is his share of what remains due on the boat generally entered to his debit in his own account each year?- No, not separately. We keep an account against the boat and the crew, and we give them credit for the whole of their fish when we come to settle with them. Then we take off one-third the price of the boat, along with the cost of any other supplies they may have had in company, and divide the balance and enter it to each separate man's credit, leaving two-thirds of the price of the boat at the debit of the boat account.

3845. The balance that remains in favour of the men after that comes into their separate accounts?-Yes.

3846. So that the boat account has a priority in the settlement over the individual accounts of the men?-Yes.

3847. Where such a boat account exists, is it the case that the individual men are generally, or always, dealing at the shop of the merchant who advances the boat?-I cannot say. The men are at liberty to deal where they like. Getting an advance of a boat does not compel them to take their supplies from the same merchant.

3848. But is there any understanding or practice according to which the men do deal at the merchant's shop?-I cannot say. The men that we deal with are at liberty to take their supplies either from us or from any other shop in the country.

3849. Are your shopkeepers allowed to make any intimation to the men that they are expected to deal at your shop?-They are never told to do so, and they never do it, so far as I am aware.

3850. Would they be checked or reprimanded if they did it?-We never had occasion to reprimand them, because we never said a word about it ourselves. Our shopkeepers never did it by our orders, and I don't think they ever did it of their own accord.

[Page 93]

3851. In agreeing to open a boat account with men in that way, is any preference given to men who deal at your shops, or who undertake to deal there? Would you more readily agree to open an account with such men than with others who did not deal with you?-That is never taken into consideration at all.

3852. But when a boat account is opened, are they always expected to deliver their fish to you until it is paid off?-That is always part of the understanding, that they shall fish to us as long as they're due a balance on the boat.

3853. And when the balance is paid, then they are free?-Yes; they are at liberty to renew the agreement with us, or to go anywhere else they like.

3854. Do you find that, at the end of the period when the balance is paid off, the men are generally ready to continue to fish for you?-Sometimes they fish for us, and sometimes they shift and go to another curer.

3855. There is no general rule about that?-No.

3856. You say in your statement, that the men are quite safe with the arrangement to get the current price at the end of the season for their fish: 'They know the competition between curers all over the islands is so keen, that they are secured to get the highest possible, price that the markets can afford. Any curer that can offer a little advantage to the fishermen over the others is certain to get more boats the following year; and this is carried so far, that men with limited capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the trade by giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave nothing to themselves, and the end come to grief:' is that a common thing in the islands?-It is not common, but it does happen occasionally.

3857. Has that any connection with a statement which was made in the evidence given in Edinburgh, about the necessity which a merchant was under, to have a large amount of bad debts in order to succeed in business?-I daresay it has.

3858. I suppose that refers to the same sort of dealers men with limited capital, who push their business by giving the fishermen an advantage in that way, and who were said to come to grief from having too few bad debts?-Yes.

3859. Do you suppose the gentleman who gave evidence to that effect, and which you have criticised in another part of your statement, was referring to the same cases that you are there referring to?-I am not referring to any particular case in that statement. It is only afterwards that I mention evidence. In this case, I say that a man with small capital who gives too large advances to the fishermen, which they cannot repay, is very likely to be unable to pay his own creditors.

3860. When you speak of him giving too large advance, do you mean in the shape of supplies of going out of his shop?-Yes; and giving too many gratuities to the fishermen, so that they have all the profit, and he has none.