Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (7)

2138. It was barter in either case, but was the trade usually carried on by purchases from people who knitted their own wool?-I think in former times it was altogether that. It is only within the last twenty or thirty years that the women have been employed, so to speak, by the merchants. It was about 1840 or 1841 that the making of shawls began to get very common here; and about 1845 or 1846 there was a very great demand for them. After that the veil knitting commenced, about 1848 or 1849, and from 1852 to 1856 there was a very great trade done in veils. These are the dates, so far as I recollect them.

2139. Shawls and veils are the staple articles of the Lerwick women's manufacture?-Yes; and they also make country hosiery of different sorts.

2140. That is the coarser hosiery?-Not necessarily coarser, but stockings and fine underclothing for both ladies' and gentlemen's wear.

2141. Under the description of shawls I suppose you include the cloaks which are made?-Yes; opera-[Page 42] cloaks, mantles, and squares. There is a great variety of them made, in different styles.

2142. At present are you in the habit of giving cash whenever it is asked?-I am.

2143. Do you remember, during the last few years, of having refused to give money to any person who asked for it?-I have no recollection of doing so for a good many years back.

2144. Have the people in your shop any instructions on that point?-My assistants would not give cash without coming to me, because such a transaction has to be entered in the cash-book. If there was any cash to be paid, they would come to me for it, so that I might enter it. It would not be paid out of the ordinary shop-till, because we have to keep an account of it.

2145. But they would be at liberty to purchase hosiery and pay for it in goods without consulting you?-Either my brother-in-law or myself would fix the prices.

2146. Then none of your people have authority to purchase?- No; they would not purchase without consulting me or my brother-in-law.

2147. So that either of the partners must be in the shop, or must be consulted in every case of purchase?-Yes.

2148. Do you give the same answer with regard to cases in which parties employed by you are returning their work?-Perhaps any small sums of money, such as 6d. or 1s., they might get in my absence; but if it was anything larger that was desired, they would be asked to wait until either I or my brother-in-law came in.

2149. But in that case, if they wanted to take out the whole value of the article, they might get it in goods, in the absence of you and your brother-in-law?-Yes, they might.

2150. Does it depend upon the state of their account, whether they would get the whole value in goods or not?-No. Most of them have been long known to us, and even if they were in debt (which sometimes happens) to a small amount, it would not matter much, if they wanted anything. I may mention, as an instance illustrating that, that last night a girl called and asked me for some money to pay the police assessment which had been charged upon her father. She said her father was not able to pay it, and they had no money in the house, and she asked for money to pay it with. Money is often wanted in that way, and of course I gave it to her.

2151. Had she a pass-book with her?-No; she just came in with a small article of fancy knitting which she wanted to sell, and she sold it and got the cash for it.

2152. Did she get the full price in cash?-Yes. She told me what she wanted the money for. Of course I did not ask her or insist to know what the money was for, but she mentioned it incidentally.

2153. How much was the price of that article?-It was a small thing, 8s.-a pair of lace sleeves for ladies' under-dresses.

2154. Would you say that that was a transaction of a very usual kind?-No; I should not say it was very usual.

2155. But if that had been asked at any time during the last three or four years, would the same result have followed? Would she have got the money?-I think so, with me, if the request had come from the same person, or from a person who had been long employed by us.

2156. That case you have mentioned was one of sale?-Yes.

2157. It was an article made with her own material?-Yes; it was her own material and her own article altogether. I have just mentioned it, as the latest thing of the kind that has occurred.

2158. Do you know a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-I think there are two Mrs. Williamsons in the Asylum: there is a Mrs. Williamson who has been there since the Asylum was opened, and there is another who has come there quite lately, within the last twelve months. If the question you are to put has anything to do with knitting, it will probably refer the last one. The first Mrs, Williamson is in very good circumstances, and I don't think she would be employing herself in that way.

2159. I speak of one who knits with her own wool, and knits fine articles.-I am sure to know her if she is an inmate of the Asylum, though I could not just identify her at present.

2160. Then you don't know whether she knits to you?-She does not knit to me.

2161. Or sells goods to you?-She may come into the shop to sell goods as any other woman does, but I have no recollection of anything of the kind.

2162. Is there another Mr. Laurenson in Lerwick?-There is a firm of R.B. Laurence & Co.

2163. Do they sell provisions?-I don't know.

2164. Do you sell bread?-I sell nothing except general drapery stock, and the other articles I have mentioned. There is a Mr. Laurence, a baker, and his sons are the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co.

2165. Does Mr. Laurence buy hosiery?-Not so far as I am aware. He was in business as a hosier some years ago but he is now only a grocer and baker.

2166. Did you buy a shawl for 80s., about three months ago, from a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-Not to my recollection. If there is anything particular about the transaction, that might enable me to remember it.

2167. You did not purchase such a shawl, and pay part of the price in bread?-No; I could not have done that. I may mention that the name of the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co. is generally pronounced by the people here in the same way as my own, they speak of them as Laurenson, although their names are Laurence.

2168. Have you sometimes paid large sums in cash for shawls?- Very often, in separate transactions. I have frequently paid cash down for particular shawls worth £2 or £2, 10s. I have given as much as £5 in cash for a single shawl; but that, of course, was very special article.

2169. Would you make any objection to paying so much in cash?-No; but I would be pretty sure the article was worth it.

2170. In the case you have just now referred to, was it necessary for the woman to make any particular representation as to her wanting the cash before she could get it, or was she asked to take the price in goods?-No; I did not ask her to do that. Probably when she produced the article, she said she wished to sell it for cash, and so the price was fixed.

2171. Does a demand of that kind for payment in cash affect the price for the shawl?-Certainly. We could not give so much in cash as we could give in goods; and if a cash tariff were adopted, there would have to be a general deduction made all round-a deduction equivalent to the ordinary retail profit in the drapery trade.

2172. Do the sellers of these hosiery goods to you understand that if they demand cash they must take a smaller price?-Yes, they understand that; and they would be quite prepared to take it.

2173. Is it quite understood that there are two prices for these articles-a cash price, and a price in goods?-Yes; I think that is quite understood. Of course, if a woman comes in with a shawl for which she is willing to take 20s. in goods, she would be equally willing to take 16s. or 17s. in cash, because the difference between the 16s. or 17s. in cash and the 20s. in goods represents the retail draper's profit, which is supposed to run from 15 to 20 or 25 per cent. on these articles. That is the case over all the kingdom.

2174. Would not the result to the woman be, that if she took the 17s. in cash she would only be able to buy 17s. worth of goods with it?-Well, that is true; but she might be requiring grocery goods or meal, or some kind of articles that we don't keep in our drapery shops. Of course there would be an advantage to her, because she might be requiring the cash in order to help her in paying her rent, or anything of that kind.

2175. In that way, does it not come to be a disadvantage to the women to take cash?-It cannot be a disadvantage if they require it for these other purposes. [Page 43] It would not answer them at all times to get drapery goods.

2176. Is it an advantage to you, as a dealer in hosiery, to pay the price of the hosiery in goods?-Of course it is an advantage to us, as retail drapers, to sell as much of these goods as possible.

2177. But is it any advantage to you, if by buying for cash you are to get the same profit upon your hosiery goods on a re-sale of them?-There is this to be considered: that if we were buying for cash exclusively, then we would only buy such things as we were actually requiring, either for orders which we had, or which we thought were likely to sell; but according to the present system, although I don't mean to defend it altogether, we might have a pretty large stock, and have really no orders, and no immediate prospect of selling them. At the same time, so long as it is a system of barter or exchange, we can quite easily give goods of one description over the counter in exchange for goods of another description,-for this reason, that these goods of another description, which are received in exchange, can be stored by us as well as our drapery goods. At such times we would not be willing to pay anything in cash.

2178. Then what you mean to say is, that the opportunity of selling your drapery goods is an inducement to you to increase your stock of hosiery although the market may be unfavourable?-Exactly; because we have already invested our cash in these drapery goods, and we may just as well have that cash lying in Shetland hosiery as in drapery goods, in many cases.

2179. If you did not pay in goods, would the result be that you might still purchase the hosiery, but at a much lower rate?-That would be one result of it; and another result would be, that when the Shetland hosiery trade was dead, as it very often is for many months, we would have then to give up buying altogether. At the same time, I don't say but what an entirely cash system would ultimately be advantageous to both parties,-both to us as dealers, and also to the women knitters.

2180. In what way do you think that that?-I think it would simplify the thing, and prevent a good many disagreeable occurrences. In fact the present system is a complicated, antiquated sort of thing; and I, for my own part, would be willing if some plan could be adopted for introducing a cash system altogether. It certainly would be simpler, and I have no doubt it would ultimately come to be as convenient to us all; but you will please to observe that the present system is just a continuance of an old traditional system that we who are now in the trade found existing when we came into it, and it is rather difficult to get it changed.

2181. Do you think it is any advantage for the women to be able to get 20s. in goods rather than 16s. of cash?-It think it would be better for the women to be always paid in cash.

2182. For what reason?-Because they would then have the cash at their own disposal, and they could do with it what they liked. They might buy their goods from me or from any other body, just as they pleased.

2183. Do you think they could manage their cash better?-I don't know, but at any rate they would be more independent. If they did not choose to deal with me, they could go to any other shop where they thought they could lay it out to better advantage.

2184. Is it the fact that they cannot get the price of their goods in cash just now?-I believe, as a general rule, that is quite true. I have heard the evidence of two or three of the girls who have been examined on previous days with regard to that.

2185. I am speaking now entirely of the purchase system. I will ask you something afterwards with regard to the system of knitting with the merchants' own wool; but you understand that you have hitherto been speaking about the system of purchasing?-Yes; hitherto I have been referring to the exchange of articles over the counter.

2186. Your general observations have applied to both systems?- Yes, to both.

2187. Speaking then, in the meantime, about the purchase system, there is now in point of fact a difficulty in getting cash?-There is no doubt of that, because it is the custom of the trade, and has all along been, that these hosiery articles should be paid for in goods. That is known and understood on both sides.

2188. Will you tell me exactly where the advantage to the woman lies who sells her hosiery for 20s. in goods rather than for 16s. in cash? Are these 20s. of goods worth more to her than 16s. in cash would be-I mean, apart altogether from the question as to whether she wants other goods than hosiery?-Is the money value of the 20s. worth of goods greater than 16s. in cash?-The money value of them cannot be greater, because the retail profit is included in that.

2189. Yes, but the money value to you is one thing, and the money value to the woman may be another?-I assume, as a general rule, that all the goods which the women take they are actually requiring.

2190. Is that the fact?-I heard some statements made here by some witnesses yesterday, and I suppose they were quite correct, since the women made them, but I was not aware of it before, that they had to take goods and re-sell them afterwards.

2191. You were not previously aware of the existence of such a practice?-No; I was not aware of it until I heard it deponed to yesterday.

2192. You say there are periods of depression in the Shetland trade?-Yes; for many months there is little or no demand for Shetland goods, and at such times our stocks lie over and accumulate.

2193. In such a period of depression I presume that your prices, whether in money or in goods, are lower than at other times?- They naturally tend downwards, as in all other trades, because in many cases we really don't want the goods. Having quite sufficient and more than sufficient of the article, we don't want any more of them; but very often we take them, just as you may say, to oblige the women, and give them tea for them, or things which they may actually be requiring, although we may have no prospect of selling these articles for a year or so.

2194. Is there not a difficulty in the trade also from the nature of the articles which are made?-There is a very great difficulty in that respect, owing to the want of uniformity in the articles, and the great variety of them. You can never get two shawls alike; you cannot even get a dozen pair of half-stockings alike. If you were to get an order for twenty dozen socks of a particular colour, size, and price, you would not be able to get that number of socks alike in Shetland.

2195. The result of that is, that you cannot give a large order?- We cannot undertake to execute it; and it is only such houses in the south as are acquainted with the Shetland trade, and who know that, when they give an order for a certain quantity of goods, they must get them varied in colour and in quality, and who make up their minds for that, and don't expect anything else it is such houses who generally deal in Shetland goods.

2196. Does that fact, and the want of knowledge of that fact, restrict the number of houses in the south with which you can deal?-There is no doubt of it. Suppose an English house, who had never done anything in Shetland goods before, were to send down an order for a certain quantity of goods, they would expect to get them as uniform as if they were sending that order to Leicester, or any hosiery district in the south.

2197. In what way does that affect the system of paying in goods?-There are limits to the demand. It affects the market. We don't have such a large market.

2198. And it increases the inducement to merchants to make their payments in the drapery goods which they sell, and upon which they have another profit?-Exactly.

2199. I suppose the reason for paying in goods is really, that you manage to make two profits: the profit upon the drapery, and then the profit upon the re-sale of the hosiery?-For the most part, we have to be content with one profit. No doubt, like all other men, we would be glad to make two profits if we could; but I think it is a rule in the Shetland hosiery trade, that [Page 44] the dealer is quite content if he gets the price for the hosiery goods which he would have paid for them in cash, even with a very good discount off; that is to say, with £10 worth of Shetland hosiery, for which he had paid that sum in goods, he would be willing to sell them for £10 in cash, and 5 per cent. off for cash. He would not expect to get a profit on the hosiery also.

2200. Do you mean to say that a lot of hosiery purchased for £10 you would sell to a merchant in the south for £10, and give him 5 per cent. discount besides?-Yes.

2201. Then you would make a loss?-No; because we have paid the £10 in goods at retail prices, and we have the retail profit on them, which is more that 5 per cent.

2202. You mean that you have a profit on the goods?-Yes; the goods amounting to £10, for which we have got the hosiery. Perhaps the profit on these goods is 15 per cent.; and if we sell the hosiery afterwards for £10, and take off 5 per cent. for cash, we still have 10 per cent. for our trouble.

2203. That comes to this: that, keeping it apart from your trade in goods, you make no profit upon the hosiery at all, but you will pay 5 per cent. discount to a wholesale merchant in the south for paying it promptly?-Yes; and I believe, in some cases where the dealers in Shetland don't have good connections in the south and good markets, they generally sell at a much lower price. I believe it is quite common in the Edinburgh auction-rooms for parcels of Shetland hosiery to be exposed for sale, and sold at a rate much lower than they could be sold for in Shetland. That, I suppose, is done by dealers who are pressed for cash; and they have to sell their hosiery stocks at any sacrifice, at what they can get for them, because they cannot get them sold in the regular market at a profit.

2204. Does it not seem to you that it would be a more reasonable way, in such a state of matters, to reduce the price of your hosiery?-It would be better to introduce a system of cash payments.

2205. But, whether there was a system of cash payments or of payment in goods, would it not look better in your books, and would it not be the natural way of dealing, to purchase the hosiery only at such figures as would enable you to make a profit upon it?-Yes; that would be better, decidedly. It might practically make very little difference to the dealer; it would just be taking it out of the one pocket and putting it into the other, but it would be more business-like, and a simpler plan.

2206. Is it not one result of that system, that as the merchant runs two risks,-a risk upon the hosiery and a risk (not so great, but still a risk) upon his goods,-he is obliged to make a larger profit upon his goods than he otherwise would?-I believe that is so.

2207. So that the goods are really dearer to the retail purchaser here than they would be if another system were adopted?-I think

2208. You say you are quite ready to adopt a system of cash payments, and to carry it out if it were usual in the trade?-Quite ready.

2209. Is there any difficulty in a single house proceeding to act upon that system?-There has been no proposal made for it.

2210. Do you mean there has been no demand made for it by the sellers of hosiery?-I mean there has been no proposal made among the dealers in hosiery to adopt such a system; and it would be difficult for one house to begin to attempt it unless there was some plan agreed upon, and some tariff of prices. I think it would be necessary, in the first place, to have some scale fixed.

2211. Would the market not fix the prices just as it does in other trades?-By and by I have no doubt it would; but what I mean is, that at the beginning of the new plan, in the transition between the present state and a new system of cash payments there would require to be some sort of agreement.

2212. With regard to those women whom you pay for working, do you generally keep pass-books with them?-I don't think many of them have them now. In fact, within the last seven years we have not been very much in that branch of the Shetland hosiery trade. We still have a few knitting to us in that way, and I think some of them have pass-books.

2213. How many women do you employ in that way?-I could not say precisely, because for several years our shop-woman has attended to that altogether, and the books which I have brought with me are kept by her. I can give her name, and she will be able to give any information that may be wanted on that subject.

2214. What is her name?-Andrina Aitken.

2215. I suppose your books will show at once the number of people you employ in that way?-Yes, these books will show, but I cannot say from memory how many there are.

2216. Has not each woman whom you so employ a page in the ledger?-I think, for the most part, they just settle for each article as they bring it. If a girl or woman is knitting a shawl, she comes in with it; there is a price put upon it, and she settles up there and then for it. If there is a balance, whether for or against her, it is noted up as at that date. We don't keep long accounts with them.

2217. How is it noted?-It is noted in the book at the place where the work is marked as having been given out. The balance is stated there [produces book].

2218. What is that book?-We call it a work-book.

2219. Is it kept as a day-book from day to day?-Yes.

2220. Is that the only book you keep?-It is the only book used for that purpose.

2221. Therefore you keep accounts, because when a balance stands against a woman you have to look back to where the balance is?-Yes; and where work is given out again, the balance is marked against her, that balance being agreed upon between the shop-woman and her.

2222. Is there any index to the names of the women in that book?-No; the girl knows them all.

2223. I see that the entries on two pages of it serve for a month?- Yes; the entries from December 5 to January 2 are all on two pages. These contain all our transactions with that sort of people, and it shows that we have very few of them.

2224. I see here an entry: 'December 5-Barbara Hunter, 11/4 oz. black mohair. D. 1s.-retd.' Will you explain that entry?-D. means debtor. It means that the woman got supplies to the extent of 1s. The 11/4 oz. black mohair was the worsted which she got at that time to knit up. Then on the 21st she comes back and returns it. At that time there is this entry: December 21-Barbara Hunter, 11/4 oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 6d.

2225. What does 'retd.' mean in the first entry?-It means that the work was returned on a certain day. The return would be made on the 21st, when she got out the same quantity of additional stuff, and then the balance is carried forward.

2226. Are there any entries in your books showing how the D. 1s. or the D. 1s. 4d. was made up?-No; I could not even tell what it was for.

2227. But it was a balance upon goods supplied to her?-Yes. It may have been tea, or some small sums of cash, or anything. Our shop-girl would go over it with her, and they would agree upon it that this was the balance due at that time; and then, when she came back with the work she had got out on the 21st, there would be another balance.

2228. Here is another entry: 'December 15-Christina Sinclair, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 13s. 3d., D. 5s. 1d.-retd.' How does it happen that, under the same entry and in the same line, there are three separate sums?-The girl came on separate occasions and got these supplies, and they have been, entered separately. She has been back since then, because the work which she got out at that time has been returned.

2229. Then follows the entry: 'December 26 [Page 45]-Christian Sinclair, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 10d. (in pencil), D. 11s. 11d.' The 11s. 11d. would be the balance on the previous three debtor entries, and the 10d., I suppose, had been got subsequently?-I presume it had been quarter it pound of tea for 10d. Christina Sinclair lives in Hancliffe Lane.

2230. Does she support herself entirely by knitting?-She lives with her father. She knits a good deal on her own account, and comes and sells it to us. These had been some veils and other things, which she makes for us occasionally when she happens not to have worsted of her own.

2231. The 11s. 11d., I think you say, shows a balance upon goods got by her?-Yes; I presume it is the balance, after deducting what she got for that work.

2232. What would she probably get for the work bestowed by her upon 2 oz. black mohair?-I suppose that would make four or five veils. Perhaps she might get 5s. Then, besides these little things which are entered there, she might have got some things when she was personally present, and the last balance would be struck upon the whole.

2233. I understand you to state quite distinctly that this book is the only one in which entries are made of any transactions with workers employed by you?-The only one. As I said before, we do very little in that way now; and this represents the whole of it.

2234. Do your sales to these women not appear in your shop day-book?-No; these are the whole entries. If they get anything when they come with their work, there is no entry made of it at all.

2235. If a woman, either a knitter employed by you, or one who sells to you, comes to your shop and has a large sum of money to get, is it the practice that you do not pay her entirely in goods, but give her an advance in cash; or is it sometimes your practice to give her a line?-We don't give lines at all; but I may say that it is very seldom any of them have very much to get.

2236. If a woman has something to get and does not want goods, do you make an entry of any kind to her credit similar to those debtor entries against her?-I see here an entry: 'December 26- Ann Anderson, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 5d., Cr. 7s. 6d.' That 5d. has been got afterwards.

2237. Then she could have come at any time and got that 7s. 6d.?-Yes; and more if she had wanted it.

2238. That sum is probably standing to her credit yet?-Yes; she has that to get just now.

2239. If she had got it, in what way would it have been marked out?-It would have been marked returned, and another entry made of the new work which she had got.

2240. I show you an entry in another part of the same book: what does that mean?-It is a memorandum of the goods given to women to dress. These are the goods given to Mrs. John Gifford. They are marked down when they are given out, and when they are returned they are marked out. There are more dressers than one.

2241. Here is one entry: 'January 3-Mary Greig, Trondra, 9 oz. black. D. 8d., Cr. 7s.' Was that a country girl?-Yes.

2242. Is it not usual for country girls to take away all the value of their goods when they come in with them?-I think that is generally what they do; but sometimes, as in that case, the girl does not seem to have been requiring anything.

2243. You don't know whether that girl asked for money?-I don't know; but the shop-girl would be able to tell.

2244. You have no doubt that if she had asked for it, she would have got it?-If she had asked for it, she would have got it; but, as I have said before, it had been so long the custom not to pay money, that they did not ask it, not expecting to get it.

2245. Do you say that your profit upon your drapery goods is calculated at about 15 per cent.?-I should say about 15 to 25 per cent.; that is the ordinary retail profit over all.

2246. Supposing you were to make a profit upon your hosiery goods, what profit would you expect to get from your drapery goods?-I understand that in the south the profit in the drapery trade is generally estimated at 15 per cent. on an average.

2247. And you make it vary here, according to the different goods, at from 15 to 25 per cent.?-Yes.

2248. Is that in order to cover your risk upon the hosiery?-Yes; I should say so. It would be much better for us to sell for cash down, with a smaller price, than to sell at a higher nominal price, and to lie out of the money for perhaps a couple of years, and perhaps run the risk of making a bad debt with the hosiery. I may add that we sometimes do make bad debts to a pretty large amount. Some years ago I lost £150 by one customer.

2249. Was he a purchaser of hosiery?-Yes.

2250. Show me any entry in this book relating to a shawl made for you?-There [showing] is 7 oz. black, which was given to a woman for a shawl which she is at present making. Here is another, Mary Greig, who made a black shawl, and returned it.

2251. Does the book show how much was the payment usually got for the making of it?-She came back on 23d January, and she is credited with the amount. She had 2s. to get when she got the work to do.

2252. And she has now 7s.; but the difference between 2s. and 7s. does not show the payment to her?-No; because she might have got more goods at the time, and there would be nothing put down in the book then except the actual balance.

2253. You don't know what goods she got?-No; but I have no doubt the shop-girl will be able to tell.

2254. Can you tell me what payment would be made to a worker of that kind for such a shawl?-I think perhaps 10s. It depends a good deal on the size of thread and on the style of knitting. Of two shawls of the same size, and having the same weight of wool in them, one may be worth 2s. 6d. more for knitting than another, on account of the pattern the girl might put into it, and the style in which it was done.

2255. Then that shawl would be sent south, I presume?-We might sell it here.

2256. What do you consider the value of the material for that shawl, 9 oz.?-That black worsted would have cost us in England about 8s. a pound.

2257. Then the worsted would come to about 4s. 6d. as the value of the material?-Yes.

2258. And 10s. for the work: that would be 14s. 6d.?-Yes.

2259. And 6d. for dressing, or 15s. altogether?-Yes.

2260. At what price would that shawl be invoiced to a customer in the south?-It would depend upon whether it was to a wholesale house or to a retail customer. We have to sell these goods at a lower price to wholesale houses in the south, who have again to sell them, than we would sell them for to others.

2261. In that way there are two classes of customers?-Yes.

2262. Who are your principal correspondents in the south?-[The witness shows the names in a book.] This is the day-book, which we use exclusively for our transactions in hosiery with the south. That book has just been finished. The last entry is 6th November 1871, and since then our entries as to hosiery sent south have gone into our ordinary shop day-book: we have not provided a separate book for them.

2263. You say that you have two classes of customers, wholesale and retail?-Yes; we have wholesale customers, such as these houses whose names I have pointed out to you. We also sell to private persons, and of course we must make a difference. We must sell to these wholesale houses at a much less figure, because they have again to sell them perhaps to the very same retail customers.

2264. At what price would that shawl of Mary Greig's be invoiced to the south?-It is not away yet but I think I will be able to find some of the same [Page 46] kind. It is very difficult to say what it would be, because there is such a difference in the quality of the worsted, and the price of the raw material differs a good deal. For instance, here is black Pyrenees wool, costing about 8s. a pound, and here is black mohair wool, 27s. a pound. It would cost us roughly about 2s. an oz.; but that shawl, I should say, would be of Pyrenees wool, costing about 8s. a pound. That [showing an entry of a shawl invoiced to a house in London at 20s.] would be something like it. I may mention that an account like that won't be paid for eighteen months, and then it will be paid with a discount of 5 per cent.

2265. Is that a fair specimen of the average sales of shawls?-Yes.

2266. And the average difference between the cost for materials and workmanship?-Yes.

2267. Do you pay the freight?-The consignee pays the freight.

2268. Is this day-book a copy of your invoices which you send to these houses?-Yes. In some cases we copy the invoices in a letter-book, and then re-write them into this day-book. I can produce the letter-book if you wish to see it.

2269. Does not that difference between the price marked in the book and the price you have to pay for materials and workmanship show something in the shape of profit?-Yes, undoubtedly.

2270. Then how do you reconcile that with your previous statement, that there is really no profit upon your hosiery?-I don't think I meant to say that there really was not a profit. What I meant to say was, that, as a rule we would be very well pleased, on an average of all our hosiery goods, just to get what we pay for them. Of course, if you take out a special article here and there, the rule might not hold good; but I think, on the whole, you will find the result to be as I stated.

2271. Do you make any distinction, in your statement with regard to profits, between those cases where an article has been made for you and those in which it has been purchased by you?-I think, as a rule, the articles which we purchase or exchange over the counter are generally sold by us just for what we have paid for them. The others we have a good deal more trouble about. The raw material has to be ordered, and the money paid for it pretty soon; and then it has to be given out, and these accounts kept, and the articles have to be dressed. In fact we have three or four times the trouble about articles of that description which we have with regard to articles that we buy in exchange.

2272. Do you make that profit upon the goods made to your order, by charging a higher price to your customer in the south, or by paying a smaller rate to the women who knit for you?-The rate we pay the work-women here depends on what the other dealers in town are paying. I suppose we all pay much about the same rates.

2273. But I don't see how the same articles if made by one of your own work-women, can be charged at a different price to your customer in the south from what it would be if it were purchased by you across the counter?-As I have said, we have much more trouble with it.

2274. But the customer in the south fixes the price; and you cannot give articles that are really the same in quality at a different price, in consequence of the way in which they have come into your hands?-No; but on some articles we must have less profit than on others, and we must just make the one balance the other.

2275. But your customer would object to take two identical articles at different prices?-No doubt he would; but such articles as these black shawls we never buy over the counter. In fact I don't think I ever did buy one in that way; they are always made to order. We bring in the raw material, and the women knit it up. The material of which these black shawls are made is not Shetland wool. The women don't have it. Of course they could get it if they chose to buy it in the shops: we would sell it to them just the same as anything else.

2276. Do you purchase stockings?-Yes.

2277. You don't have them made?-No; they are all bought over the counter.

2278. Are they generally paid for in goods?-Yes; I may say universally.

2279. Are they made by the people in the country rather than by those in Lerwick?-There are very few made in Lerwick; all the hosiery proper is made in the country districts. When I speak of the hosiery proper, I mean stockings.

2280. What do you call the other kind?-Under-clothing. Articles such as shawls, veils, neckties, and the like, we call fancy work. Then there is under-clothing-men's under shirts, gentlemen's drawers, ladies sleeve, ladies' under-dresses, ladies' drawers ladies' spencers, which are worn under the clothing.

2281. I see in your day-book a charge for half dozen white veils, 12s., that is, 2s. each: is not 2s. a high price for veils?-It depends very much on the quality.

2282. Would that be an average quality?-No; it is a good quality.

2283. Were these purchased or made to order?-I could not say as to that particular lot. The best veils may be specially made or they may be bought. We very often buy veils in the ordinary retail way over the counter, and give 2s. 6d. for them; but these would be particularly well knitted.

2284. Do you give so much as 2s. 6d. for veils?-Yes, for the finest quality.

2285. Then these 2s. veils were sent to a retail house?-Yes; but of course they are buying from us, and we are selling to them, and they get 5 per cent. off that.

2286. What might be the price of these veils to you?-Perhaps 18d. or 20d.

2287. Is there anything else that you wish to state about the hosiery trade?-Nothing that I recollect of, particularly; but I may perhaps be allowed to refer to some of the answers given to questions by the witnesses who were examined before the Commission in Edinburgh. In question 44,156, Mr. George Smith is asked, 'Who supplies them (the knitters) with the wool?'-and he replies, 'That is a very difficult question. They get it chiefly from the small farmers, and sometimes from the merchants?'-I don't see why Mr. Smith should have said that that was a difficult question. There was no difficulty in it whatever.

2288. Where do the knitters generally get their wool?-In the case of the country girls, their families sometimes have sheep running on the scattald, and the wool is their own property, and is spun by some member of the family.

2289. Are there people in the country who collect wool from a number of families and give it out to spin?-I believe, in some districts of the country, there are dealers who buy up the wool and sell it out again as wool. I was to say that the knitters can buy it from them also, or from their neighbours. These are the three ways in which they can get it.

2290. Is the greater part of the wool that is used in Shetland of native production?-Yes; the greater part of it is, except the Bradford and English manufactured wools, principally black mohair and alpaca.

2291. Is much of that sold to women who knit on their own account?-I do not know if there is much sold; but in my own case, if they came to me wanting it, and I had it in stock, they should have it, whether they paid for it in cash or got it put to their account.

2292. If a woman came to you and sold a shawl, and wanted part of the price of it in worsted, would she get it without any demur?-Certainly.

2293. Do you know whether objections are made by any of the merchants to that being done?-I have seen it stated in the evidence that there are such objections.

2294. But, apart from the evidence before this Commission, do you know from your own knowledge, or from the statements of people in Shetland, whether there has been a difficulty in getting worsted for knitting in that way?-Yes, I have heard that.

2295. Do you know from what that difficulty arises?[Page 47]-I do not; unless it is because the dealer thinks that worsted is an article on which he does not have so much profit as on other goods, and is unwilling to give it.

2296. There has been no difficulty of that kind in your shop at any time?-No, none.

2297. Is there any reason why, in dealing with knitters, worsted should be called a money article or a ready-money article, which was only sold to them for money?-The Shetland worsted, which is generally spun in the north isles, in North Yell and Unst, is almost always bought and paid for in cash. It has always been the custom, at least for many years,-I should say for fifteen years,- that when the women come down from the north isles with worsted and sell it either to private persons or in the shops, they are paid for it in cash at the rate of 3d. or 31/2d. or 4d. per cut of nominally 100 threads, which in reality, when counted, runs to 80 or 90. I have seen a cut of worsted for which you paid 8d. supposed to be 100 threads, which when counted was only found to be 55; but that was an extreme case.

2298. But that wool is obtained by merchants or other persons who want it, from Shetland women coming mostly from the north isles?-Yes; where it is principally manufactured.

2299. Is the price of it always paid to them in cash?-As a rule, it is. Perhaps there may be exceptions, but, as a rule, it is paid in cash.

2300. Is that assigned in the trade as a reason why, when it is sold out to other women, it should be paid for by them in cash?-I should say that that was the reason, because there would be no profit on it otherwise. For instance worsted for which a dealer paid 31/2d. a cut would be sold by him at the same price; and if he gave it in exchange for goods, he might be out of his money for weeks or months.

2301. Does he not get more than 31/2d. for it when selling it?-I don't think it. There is a sort of fixed price for the various qualities of it.

2302. Does he not make a profit on retailing it?-No; I think not. He would either refuse to sell it at all, or give it at the price at which he bought it.

2303. Then his purchase of the worsted must have been made primarily for the use of the knitters employed by him?-Yes, I believe so.

2304. So that selling it to those women who knit on their own account would be a little out of his ordinary way of business?- Yes.

2305. He does not profess to get it for that purpose?-No. It is the raw material brought in by him or bought by him for his own uses.

2306. Is it wool or worsted you are speaking of?-Worsted. Before it is carded and spun we call it wool; after it is carded and spun we call it worsted.

2307. It is brought in the shape of worsted?-Yes.

2308. So that all you have been speaking of is really worsted?- Yes.

2309. Is much of that sent south from Shetland by the merchants in the shape of worsted?-Not much, I should say. It is more profitable, of course, for dealers and knitters to make it up, as all the raw material would come to would be comparatively trifling.

2310. Then you are not in the habit of sending it south in the shape of worsted?-No. In fact it is difficult to get. Sometimes we get an order for a small quantity for the south, for darning purposes. When a customer orders a dozen or two dozen socks, he will ask for some worsted along with them for that purpose; but it is not easy sometimes to get that for him. I was to refer to one or two other questions in the previous evidence. In question 44,289 Mr. Walker is asked, 'These merchants have no hold over them as being their tenants?'-and he replies, 'Not in the town, except in very few instances; not as a rule.' Now I don't know what instances he refers to. For my own part, I cannot imagine how any of us Lerwick dealers can have any hold on the Lerwick knitters, because they can come to us or any other body, just as they please.

2311. None of them are your tenants?-No; but even if they were, I don't think it would matter.

2312. If their rent were in arrear, would the merchant not have a hold over them?-He, as their landlord, would just have the same redress as any other landlord would have. Then the next question is, 'Is it considered a lucrative business?-Oh ! immensely so.'

2313. You have already made a statement with regard to that answer; at least you have explained what the profit is?-Yes; but he says, 'I know for a fact, that the worsted of a shawl which sells at about 30s. is worth from 2s. to 3s.' Now that is quite incorrect, because with the very lowest price of worsted the cheapest would be at least 4s. 6d.; but for a shawl selling at 30s. the worsted of it would certainly cost me 10s.

2314. Do you mean the worsted of any shawl that would sell for that in the south market or to a south country merchant?-Yes, or to any customer here. We sell a good many of these shawls to ladies in Lerwick, or to any people who come in to buy them; and any shawl that would sell for 30s. the worsted of it would cost 9s. or 10s.

2315. How much would the workmanship of a 30s. shawl come to?-Perhaps 12s., and sometimes more. Sometimes we give as high as 15s. for it. We paid 17s. 6d. last week for making a fine shawl. Then he says, A good deal of the worsted is now made in England, and brought down to Shetland.

2316. Is there much worsted imported from England?-Yes. Mr. Walker says further, 'The demand is so great for the Shetland goods, that it (the worsted) is made in Yorkshire, and brought down at 8s. a pound; and a quarter of a pound of that worsted will make a large shawl.' That is a mistake, because nothing less than half a pound of worsted of that quality could by any possibility make a shawl.

2317. Is 8s. per pound a correct statement of the price?-For some qualities it is. There is a great variety of qualities. The qualities of Pyrenees and mohair and alpaca wools go by numbers, and according to fineness the numbers rise.

2318. Can you mention the various prices at present?-7s. and 8s. per pound for blacks and whites; 9s. and 10s. for scarlet and ingrained colours.

2319. That is for Yorkshire wool?-Yes, of the finer descriptions; and then mohair and alpaca will range from 20s. to 24s. and 30s.

2320. I thought you said 32s. before?-Yes; and I have no doubt some of the numbers are even higher.

2321. I suppose there is not much variety in the size of shawls used for opera-cloaks or dress purposes?-No, they are all made about a size; but the value does not depend so much upon the size as upon the style of the workmanship.

2322. It will also depend to some extent on the quality of the wool?-Yes, to some extent.

2323. But principally on the workmanship?-Yes, it depends in great measure on that; and that is the reason why there are constant disputes with the knitters. Two knitters may come in with two shawls made of the same material and the same size and yet the one will be 25 per cent. better than the other, on account of the work bestowed upon it, and the niceness of the pattern; but it is very difficult to get these girls to understand that they should be paid according to that.

2324. Can you show me any instance of a shawl made of Yorkshire wool for which you paid 20s.? That would be rather a fine quality, would it not?-Yes; that would be mohair or alpaca.

2325. But not the finest quality?-No, not the finest.

2326. We may take that as an average quality. You said it would take about half a pound of material to make the shawl; but you also said that the finer the wools are, the less thread it takes to make them. How much would it take to make a shawl of that kind?-Perhaps it would take 6 oz.