Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (27)

7200. Would the amount of these advances be material?-I am not prepared to say how much they would be. It would depend upon the necessities of the man. I think in one case they amounted to £12, 9s. 6d.

7201. Was that sum paid in cash before settlement?-Yes.

7202. That would be nearly the amount of his total earnings?-It would be nearly the amount of the average earnings; but that man had very high earnings.

7203. I believe you have made some calculation as to the total amount of summer fish bought: what is it?-During the ten years I have been manager at North Roe, there have been summer fish bought to the value of about £7000; and during the same time the cash paid at settlement has been about £4420. That includes the rents of tenants who have fished; but it does not include the cash advanced to them through the year, which in some years has been pretty considerable. The following is a statement for the last four years, of the value of the fishings, and the amount paid in cash at settlement: Cash Paid at Value of Fishings. Settlement. 1868 About £400 £290 1869 704 335 1870 1003 540 1871 1220 723

[Page 173]

7204. Is there any winter fishing at North Roe?-There is what we call home fishing for nine months of the year in small boats.

7205. But the proper home fishing terminates about August or September?-The haaf fishing terminates about 12th August. After that the men immediately resume fishing in their small boats, and continue it until the middle of May next year.

7206. Are these the small boats you mentioned before as belonging to the men themselves?-Yes.

7207. I think you said that of these there were only two at North Roe?-That was in the summer time; but almost every man on the property has a share of a small boat for the winter fishing.

7208. Are these boats generally purchased from Hay & Co.?-I think since I came there they have generally been purchased from them, but not altogether.

7209. Are they paid for by instalments?-Our bargain for them is, that they are to be paid in three years, and during these three years they stand in separate account in my books.

7210. Is there a separate boat book?-They are entered in the general ledger, but kept in a separate account; and at the expiry of the three years, if it is not paid off, it ought properly to be put to the man's private account, and to become part of his shop account. That is the rule, although, in some cases, I have not carried it out to the extent of carrying it to the man's private account at the close of three years.

7211. Do you generally find that that boat account is paid off within the three years?-No; it is frequently continued longer.

7212. In what way are the fish disposed of that are taken in that small-boat fishing in winter?-They are sold when the men come ashore. I tell the men what price will be paid; and if they agree to take that price, receive the fish and pay for them every time they are delivered.

7213. Is that paid to them in cash?-They are at liberty to take cash, or to buy goods, or do anything they like; but we never leave these transactions unsettled.

7214. In point of fact, is it generally cash that passes, or do the men take what goods they want at the shop?-In many cases, I think in most cases, if the fishing is small, perhaps they want as much, or pretty near the value, when they come ashore, out of the shop in goods for their houses; but if they have been having a few days' successful fishing, then they take the cash when they don't require the goods. They are not asked to take the goods; and they are not required to do it in any way.

7215. Are they bound to sell these fish to you in the same way as their summer fish?-I think that is understood; but there have been many exceptions that I have known.

7216. Are there more exceptions in the case of this small-boat fishing than of the summer fishing?-I think so.

7217. Have you any note or book here, showing the amount of the transactions with regard to this small-boat fishing?-No. I have offered the men, when they came ashore, to pay them for their haul, and then they could go where they liked with the money; but they said, 'What is the use of doing that?-We want so-and-so from the shop, and we would just have to give the money back again.'

7218. How is it ascertained at the shop what amount the men have to get in goods for their fish? Do you take a note of it at the time?-Yes; and I enter it in the fish book.

7219. And from that note you know how much the man has to receive in goods?-Yes; or how much he has to receive in cash.

7220. But he takes the goods if he chooses to go to the shop at the time?-Yes.

7221. What amount of transactions of that kind may there be in the course of a year?-Last year I think it was only about £56.

7222. Was that the whole value of the fish so purchased?-Yes; but I think in some years since I came there it has been over £100.

7223. It is only the North Roe men you are speaking of now?- Yes.

7224. The Yell men don't deliver their fish to you in that way?- No; not generally.

7225. Then that sum would be paid to about 33 men?-I think there are more than that who engage in the winter fishing. Some of the men who go to the Faroe fishing, and some also who go south, employ their time in winter in that way.

7226. That would make it a very small sum that is paid to the men for their winter fishing?-Yes; it is very small.

7227. So that it rather seems the winter fishing is hardly worth taking into account in your general transactions?-It is not.

7228. Do Messrs. Hay & Co. purchase cattle to any extent for the purpose of selling them?-They have an island, the island of Uyea, where they graze for their own purposes.

7229. Is that in Unst?-No; it is in this parish. I buy the cattle for that island yearly.

7230. Is it simply for grazing purposes there that you buy the cattle?-For no other purpose.

7231. Are they bought at public sales?-Generally they are.

7232. Do these cattle enter the accounts of the fishermen?-Yes, mostly. They pass through their accounts; but I could show cases where they received the cash again immediately.

7233. Are they not settled for at the annual settlement?-Yes; or they get cash for them at any time they want.

7234. Are these cattle often taken from men who are in arrear with their accounts?-No; they are never taken from the people who are in arrears. If a man was in arrears, he might be asked to bring his cow to the public sale if he was to dispose of her; and then we might buy her or not.

7235. There is said to be a system in Shetland of marking the horns of cattle when the merchant or landlord has a debt against a fisherman tenant: can you explain what the practice is with regard to that?-I believe such a practice does exist; but in my own experience I have never set any value upon it at all, and never practised it at North Roe.

7236. What do you understand the practice to be?-I understand that if any one has a claim against a tenant, either proprietor or merchant or any other party, they consider that if their mark or initials or brand is put upon the horns of the animal, it then becomes their property, even in cases where the animal has not been removed from the possession of the original owner. That is how I understand it has been done in my neighbourhood.

7237. Do you understand that it is usual for the creditor to remove the cattle so marked from the premises of the debtor, and to keep them in his byre or yard for some time, and afterwards to return them upon loan, that removal being understood to be the badge of possession or the sign of the transference of the property?-Yes. I did that myself in one case, but it was not a direct case of that kind. The debtor was the owner of the cow, but another party had the cow in his possession; there was an intermediate party in the matter. I bought it from the man, putting a value upon it, and removed it.

7238. Charging the price to his credit in his account with you?- Yes. I removed it to my own byre and kept it there for some time, and then, as I was not wanting it very much, I gave it back to the poor man who had it originally; but the man I gave it back to was not the debtor at all.

7239. In what way was that third party in possession of it?-I don't know. I think he had reared the animal. There is such a system as giving a calf, if you have too many and don't want it, to another man, and he brings it up; and when the calf comes to be sold, one-half of the proceeds belongs to the original owner.

7240. Then you think this beast may have been in the possession of the party on some such footing as [Page 174] that?-I think it is possible it may have been in that way.

7241. If that was so, your debtor would only be the proprietor of one-half of it in reality?-No; there was something peculiar in this case, because the debtor was the sole owner of the beast.

7242. Then that was not such a case as you have mentioned?-No.

7243. May the possessor of the animal have been another creditor of your debtor who had it?-No; he was not.

7244. Is it possible that he may have hired it from your debtor?-I don't think it.

7245. You think he had it simply in loan?-Yes.

7246. When cattle are taken to market in that way by a creditor, do you know, from the general understanding of the country, how the price is fixed?-In many cases I think there is no price fixed at all.

7247. The animal is just taken generally for security of the debt?-Yes, in the meantime, until it is sold, and then the proceeds go to the party who put on the mark.

7248. These sales, I understand, take place at fixed places in each district, and at certain times in the year?-Yes, in May and October.

7249. They are conducted by public auction?-Yes.

7250. At these auctions does the creditor generally appear and bid for the marked cattle?-I don't think it. It would not avail for him to do so.

7251. Why?-Because any other party at the auction could buy them.

7252. But is the bidding perfectly fair?-Perfectly fair on all occasions.

7253. You do not know that any suspicion exists that any one of the public may not bid, or runs any risk of the displeasure of some powerful neighbour by bidding for cattle that are so marked?-No. I would bid in such at case myself, and I have explained to the country people that if the auctioneer refused a bid from anybody, they could have an action against him for refusing it.

7254. You are now speaking of your own practice, but do you not know that such fear of bidding against a merchant-creditor exists in other parts of the country?-I never heard of such thing, and I do not think it does exist.

7255. Have you known merchants buying in cattle so marked at sales?-There is nothing of the kind practised in our quarter, and I have never observed anything of the kind at sales elsewhere.

7256. Are you aware whether many of the fishermen at your station keep accounts at any of the banks?-I know that some of the men in our neighbourhood do have accounts in the banks for I have transacted such business for some of them.

7257. Is it the case that when a man who has a bank account wants a little money, he prefers to apply to the merchant for an advance to account of his next year's fishing, or of the present year's fishing, if it is during the fishing season, rather than to take it from the bank with which he has the account?-I believe it is. This year I sent £11 for a tenant to be lodged in one of the banks in Lerwick, and when I handed him the deposit receipt, he said, 'Perhaps it will not be long before I want some of this again.' I said to him, 'I think you had better not take any of it out, but let it stand in the bank; and if you want to keep you going until next year, you can get it from me rather than disturb your bank account.'

7258. That was a case in which you were on such terms with the fisherman, and had such confidence in him, that you were ready to make him the advance?-Yes.

7259. But do you know whether it is the practice for fishermen who have funds in the bank privately, to exert themselves somewhat in order to get advances from an unwilling merchant, rather than disturb their own bank account?-I have heard of such a case in our own neighbourhood.

7260. But don't you know of any such cases in your own experience?-No.

7261. Do you know whether it is the practice at all?-I don't know that it is the practice.

7262. Do merchants or shopkeepers who are in the fish trade act as bankers to their men to any extent in this part of the country?- I cannot speak to anything of that kind being done of my own knowledge.

7263. Do none of the fishermen keep money lying in your hands: do they not leave it with you at the settlement?-Very seldom.

7264. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?- No; Hay & Co. are agents in Lerwick for that society, and I send to them for any tickets want.

7265. Do the annual subscriptions enter the accounts of your fishermen at North Roe?-Yes.

7266. When payments are to be made to the men on account of the society, how are these made?-I have never had a case of the kind. There has been only one case where a fisherman had to get money, and he went down to Hay & Co. at Lerwick, and got it himself direct.

7267. Would there be any difficulty, in consequence of the want of banks in the district, in introducing a cash system of payments in a parish like this: I mean the system of paying in cash for fish at more frequent periods, and paying in cash for shop purchases, and also paying in cash for hosiery?-There would certainly a great disadvantage in doing so, in consequence of the want of a bank in our neighbourhood, because there was a cash system of payments, we would have to get larger sums of money from the bank; and to fetch money from the bank, in order to make those payments, would be rather a risky thing, seeing that we must either convey it by special messenger from Lerwick, or by the steamer.

7268. I suppose, however, that if a cash system were common in the country, a branch bank would probably be established at some convenient place?-I don't know about that; I think that, having three banks already in Lerwick, they would hardly be likely to send a bank farther north this way. I don't think the business would pay them to do so.

7269. Are you a member of the parochial board the parish?-I am.

7270. Are you aware whether many persons who are members of the families of fishermen-tenants or crofter-fishermen are supported by the board?-I know several cases of that kind.

7271. Are these persons members of the families of fishermen who have considerable incomes from fishing and from land?-I don't think so. I think that in cases where their children are able to support them they are bound to do so.

7272. But is there an inclination among the people here to get support from the poor's roll to a greater extent than existed some years ago?-I think that feeling is on the increase in the parish, and I think the present poor law tends to increase the feeling.

7273. Do you know what is the usual allowance given to paupers in this parish?-As far as I can recollect, I think it ranges from 1s. 6d. to 15s. a month.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, MORGAN LAURENSON, examined.

7274. You are a merchant at Lochend?-I am.

7275. Do you deal both in drapery goods and provisions?-Yes; but principally in drapery.

7276. Do you employ any fishermen?-A few; but I only engage in that trade to a small extent.

7277. How many boats do you send out to summer fishing?-I had three boats last year, two large and one small.

7278. Are you a landholder or tacksman?-No.

7279. You engage any fishermen in the neighbourhood who are willing to make a contract with you?-Yes.

[Page 175]

7280. You have no men who are bound to fish for you?-None.

7281. Do you run accounts with the men in the way which has been described by the previous witness and settle with them yearly?-Yes.

7282. Do you find that the balances are generally in the fishermen's favour, or against them?-For the last two years they have generally been in their favour. In former years they were not generally so; they were often against them.

7283. Do fishermen continue for any length of time to fish for you without changing, or do you find that you have different fishermen in your employment in different years?-I have not been very long in the business, only since 1865. I am a new tenant comparatively; but for the past five years, ever since I commenced to have a boat, I have not had many changes.

7284. You must have had fifteen or sixteen fishermen in your employment during that time?-Yes.

7285. Have they generally been the same men throughout?-Yes. Perhaps a man in each boat has gone away to another fish-curer; but generally they have been the same.

7286. Do you think the fact of a man having an account in your books is generally an inducement to him to continue in your employment for the next year?-I could not say that it is so in all cases.

7287. But in some cases it may have that effect?-Yes; in a few cases.

7288. Does a fisherman get accommodation from you, in the shape of supplies of goods more readily if he fishes for you, and agrees to continue to fish, than if he were not in your employment?-Yes.

7289. Are the fishermen generally in a condition to require that accommodation?-Most of them are.

7290. A man may not require it every year, but in the course of half-a-dozen years he is pretty likely, as a general rule, to be in want of some accommodation of that sort?-Yes; that is the case with most of them.

7291. Do you deal in hosiery to a considerable extent?-Yes.

7292. Do you buy it, or do you give out wool to knitters?-I buy it chiefly. We give out wool to those who have not got wool of their own; but many of our knitters, I may say the greater number of them, have their own wool.

7293. The knitting in this district, I understand, is more of the coarser kinds of worsted?-Yes; the finer underclothing is made here, not fancy goods. At least, fancy goods are made only to a very small extent.

7294. But both in the case of knitters employed by you and of people who sell you their goods manufactured with their own wool, is the payment made at your counter in goods or in cash?- Invariably in goods.

7295. Are you often asked to give a portion of the price in cash?- No; very seldom.

7296. Do the knitters run accounts with you?-Yes.

7297. And these are squared up every now and then in your books? -Yes. As a rule, we never run long accounts. The accounts are squared up at short intervals, and the women get a bill at the counter if there is a balance in their favour. They get a note of their purchases in their hands; and my usual mode is, to enter the balance in a bill, which they hold until they return with some other stuff and pay it. I find it is the best plan to keep the accounts short.

7298. At settlement do they get a note?-They get a receipt for the amount paid, and if they have a balance to receive, that is paid in goods over the counter.

7299. If they don't want the goods at the time, how is that arranged?-It is very rarely that they don't take the full value; but if they do not, what remains over is left as a balance, and it is usually carried into a new account. Sometimes they want it on a line, stating that the balance amounts to so much, and that I shall pay it.

7300. Is that line given in the form of an I O U, or of a bill?-I have given it in the form of an I O U, but very rarely. I generally put the name of the party on the line, because in some cases they have lost the lines, and then come back to me, when it was not entered in the book, and asked the value of them. I did not wish to allow them to suffer for that; but as I was afraid that another party might get the line and bring it in, I always put the name on it. 7301. You put the name on it in order to prevent the value of it from being demanded by any person except the one to whom it was granted at first?-Yes. I generally enter the lines in a book now, so that I may be kept safe.

7302. Have you a list of the lines which you issue?-For some time past, I have entered them in a book when they were given out.

7303. But you have no separate register for such lines?-No.

7304. Is there any reason why cash is not asked in these transactions for hosiery?-It is understood that we are not prepared generally to give any cash; but in the case of a regular knitter who wanted some part of her payment in cash, I have never refused, so far as I recollect, to give her what she asked. However, it was usually a comparatively small sum that was asked in that way.

7305. Do you sometimes buy articles all for cash, making special bargains for them?-Occasionally, if it is anything special.

7306. In that case, is a lower price given in cash than would have been given in goods?-Yes, because in ordinary transactions I have a profit only on the goods sold. I may state, however, that the women are unwilling to take cash. I remember that on one occasion, when I was changing from one place of business to another, I had no goods, and I offered the knitters cash for their hosiery, at such a price as would give me a reasonable profit, but they objected to take it. For instance, in the case of gentlemen's undershirts, the usual price given may be from 4s. to 4s. 6d. I have offered to give them in the one case 3s. 8d., and in the other 4s. in cash, but they have invariably refused. They would rather leave it, and get such goods as they wanted, than take a lower price in cash, and that has got to be the rule. They are very fond of getting the highest nominal value; and I can show from my books that, as a rule, I give the full price for each article which we charge in selling them, and have only a profit on the goods we give in exchange.

7307. Do you sell your goods south?-Yes.

7308. Are you prepared to show that just now?-Yes. [Produces book.] This [showing] is the sales book, containing copies of the invoices.

7309. The women in their accounts are charged with the wool as got by them?-Yes.

7310. Are they credited again with the knitted goods as got by you?-Yes.

7311. Therefore, in that way the wool is really given out by you to them, to be knitted as by persons in your employment?-No, they are not employed by me, but I expect the women to bring back the goods to me, as we don't sell wool, because it is rather difficult to get. With regard to the prices, I show here an entry in a copy invoice, under date Sept. 14, 1871 of half a dozen girls' polkas at 15s., 7s. 6d., and I also show an entry in my women's ledger of 'by one doz. girls' polkas, 14s. 4d.,' on January 27, 1870.

7312. Was there any material difference in the price of polkas within that period of 18 months?-No. I also show an entry under date February 18, 1870, of 1/3 doz. girls' polkas at 15s., 5s. In addition to the price entered in the women's ledger, there is the price of re-dressing, which is about 6d. a dozen, and there are boxes required in which to send them away, for which we do not get any return.

7313. Do you swear that these girls' polkas are a fair sample of the other articles in which you deal, with regard to the expense of production to you and the invoice price to your customer in the south?-Yes. I may state that we have a very strong desire to give encouragement to good knitters, by giving them the highest prices.

7314. Can you mention any case in which you have [Page 176] sold hosiery at a profit?-No, except in small orders, or retail orders from private parties. In such cases, I consider it fair to charge a small profit on the goods, in order to protect my other customers who buy largely from me. That is the only case in which there is any profit.

7315. Do you purchase worsted to any great extent?-Not worsted, but wool,-the raw material from the farmers in the district.

7316. Is that spun and made up by persons employed by you?- Yes. I do that for the purpose of finding employment for women who have no way of their own to earn a livelihood.

7317. Do you use that wool for your own trade, or do you sell it as worsted to merchants elsewhere?-We cannot get enough of it. It is entirely for our own trade that it is made up, with very rare exceptions.

7318. Do you make up all qualities of it, or is it simply the coarser kind of wool required for the underclothing department?-The softest wool is made up for underclothing, and the coarser is made into tweeds.

7319. But you do not make any of the finer kinds of worsted for fancy work?-Nothing, except to a very trifling extent. Our knitters don't knit that kind of work.

7320. What is the rate of payment for spinning?-The girls to whom I sell it, card, spin, and knit it usually.

7321. Then the entry you showed me was an entry of wools?- Yes. They would be to sell the worsted once they had spun it, but they can turn it to more account by knitting.

7322. There is nobody in your employment merely for spinning?- I cannot say there is. Occasionally we get a woman to spin for us; but they don't like to do that, as it is not profitable.

7323. The way in which you deal with these spinners and knitters is, that you generally sell the wool to them?-Yes.

7324. And they bring it, and sell it back to you when made into articles of hosiery?-Yes.

7325. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes; some of them have offered to take the wool, and make it 'halvers.' The practice among the people themselves is, that a party who has wool gives it to a neighbour who has none; she knits two pieces of goods, one of which belongs to the owner of the wool, and the other is kept by the knitter for her trouble. I objected to that system, because I did not think it encouraged them to make the most of their material, and they did not, perhaps, give fair attention to the improvement the knitting. If they buy 4s. worth of wool, and if girl knits well, she may turn 10s. or 12s. out of that; in some cases more; so that there is more encouragement to them by knitting the wool themselves, than by selling it.

7326. I suppose you sometimes buy articles which have been made by knitters with their own wool, spun by themselves, and which has not originally been purchased from you?-Yes; a great many of the articles of hosiery are purchased by us in that way.

7327. On whose property is your shop?-On the Busta estate.

7328. How long have you held your shop there?-Since 1864,- seven years.

7329. Was there a shop in existence at Lochend before you opened yours?-There had been a shop there for a long time.

7330. In the same premises?-Yes; but it has been considerably enlarged.

7331. Where were you before?-At Ollaberry. I had the business place there now occupied by Mr. Anderson's firm.

7332. You left that when they took it into their own hands?-Yes.

7333. Had you any difficulty in getting a shop in which to carry on your business in this district cannot say that I had. I was offered this place by the Busta trustees. It was in a state of dilapidation when I took it, and they offered it to me on condition that I would make the necessary repairs on it for myself.

7334. Was any difficulty stated about giving you the shop on account of interfering with the business of the other merchants in the district?-No.

7335. Do you sometimes buy fish from the fishermen who are employed by Messrs. Anderson & Co. or by Messrs. Hay & Co.; I mean odd hauls now and then?-I cannot say that I buy any from Messrs. Hay Co.'s fishermen, because they would hardly sell to me on account of the inconvenience.

7336. But are you aware whether the practice exists of the fishermen employed by you selling occasionally to the factors of other merchants, and the fishermen of other merchants selling occasionally to you or your factors?-I think that practice exists only to it very small extent.

7337. But you have detected that practice to certain extent?-I cannot say that I have; there have been very few fish bought from such men.

7338. Was that done because the men did not get cash advances from the parties for when they fished regularly?-I don't think it was. I think it was merely done from a notion on the part of the men.

7339. Did they get merely the same price which they would have got from their own employer?-I think they got the same price in all cases.

7340. Then why should they not deliver their fish as usual in the ordinary way?-I cannot say. They perhaps think it is a privilege to sell to any one who will buy from them-although that is not the rule. It is understood that they are not at liberty, as a rule, to do so, but yet they do it, although it has been very rarely in my experience.

7341. When they sell their fish in that way, are these transactions for ready money?-Not always. They may sell them in order to pay some goods which they have got before. If they were selling them to me, they might bring them in order to pay some account which they had at my shop.

7342. Are there many fishermen dealing at your shop on credit who fish to other merchants?-Occasionally there are a few.

7343. You have accounts with them?-Yes; with a few.

7344. Are these accounts settled annually, at the ordinary settling time, as a rule; or is there any rule, about the period for settlement?-There is a rule that they shall settle annually after the settlement with their own curers, and at that time they usually bring part of the cash which has been paid to them.

7345. Do you sometimes find that these accounts are not settled at that time?-Sometimes I do.

7346. Are you a loser to any extent by the failure of the fishermen to settle accounts of that kind?-I consider that I am, in some cases.

7347. But these debts sometimes run over a period of years?-In cases where the parties are poor they do.

7348. Have there been offers made to you by fishermen who are in these circumstances, and who are in your debt, to settle their accounts by engaging to fish for you during the fishing season?- No; I cannot say that there have been any offers made to me of that sort.

7349. You have not taken on a fisherman who was in your debt in that way?-No.

7350. Do you not know of any case in which you have taken on a man who was in your debt, simply with the view of allowing him to pay it off?-With the fishermen on the Busta estate I have done so.

7351. Were these men who had incurred a debt to you while they were fishing for another merchant?-In one instance that was the case; but I find, as a rule, that a party who is in debt is not one who is likely to be ready to offer his services. The fact that he is in debt is no inducement to make him fish for you, but rather the contrary.

7352. Do you think that, as a rule, he will continue to fish for his former employer?-Yes.

7353. But the fact probably is, that if he is in debt to you in that way, he is also in debt to [Page 177] his own employer?-I believe that is generally the case.

7354. Have you known any case of a fisherman changing his employer because he was so deeply in debt to him, that that employer would not advance him any more goods?-I have in my own transactions had to refuse advances to a fisherman, because I knew he was getting into debt deeper than he could pay. I refused to advance him any longer, and left him at liberty to do the best he could for himself.

7355. Did he leave you at the end of the season?-Yes.

7356. And at the beginning of it new season, did he go to another employer?-Yes.

7357. In that case how have you secured your debt?-I gave him perhaps a year, and then I had to press him for the amount.

7358. Did you take him to court?-Yes; I took him to court, because he refused to pay what I believed he was able to pay.

7359. Have you ever in such a case succeeded in getting any part of your debt settled by his new employer?-Yes.

7360. How was that done? Did you, at the beginning of the fishing season, get the new employer to make an advance to the fisherman to account of your debt?-In the case I am referring to, the employer at the end of the fishing season made a payment to me, as an instalment on the debt.

7361. Was that done by arrangement with the fisherman?-Yes; the fisherman went to his new employer and got his line or security for a part, indeed for the whole amount, to be paid in three instalments, in three years, because I thought it better to part with the man when he was getting too deeply into debt, and perhaps the change in going to another employer would lead him to better himself.

7362. Was he likely to better himself in such circumstances?-It chanced that he got into a good fishing boat, and he did better himself.

7363. But that was just a chance, was it not?-Yes, I should think so.

7364. Was it the man who wished to go to another employer when his supplies were stopped by you, or was it you who wished him to change?-He could not do without advances, and he would not give me security to cover my risk in giving him any.

7365. But the new employer, in employing the fisherman, took exactly the same risk which you refused, and I suppose gave him supplies?-Not to the same extent. It was only after the man had been at sea at one season at the fishing for his new employer, and had earned a fair earning, that he paid me one-third of his account, and became good for the balance to be paid at the end of the next two seasons.

7366. Did that merchant become good for the whole balance of your account?-I don't know whether it was legally or formally gone into, but it was understood he would see that the man paid me.

7367. Was that a single case, or has it occurred oftener with you?-That has been the only case in my experience.

7368. Who was the merchant?-Mr. Greig, the manager for Messrs. Hay & Co.

7369. Are you aware whether that case is of ordinary occurrence in transactions between fish-curers, when fisherman leaves the employment of one and goes to that of another?-I think it has been an understood thing among them; at least some time ago, when I was more in connection with the larger concerns of Hillswick and Ollaberry, it was understood that when a fisherman ran away from his responsibility, after getting into debt, his new employer, if he was taken up by another curer in the district, would be morally liable to pay the balance for the man, if it was reasonable. I don't know whether that is the practice now or not.

7870. Was there just a general understanding that the new employer should make some kind of arrangement about it, the particulars being settled in each case, or was there a rule that he should become responsible for the whole debt, or for a specific proportion of the debt?-I think it was understood that it would be fair for the new employer to become accountable for the whole debt, if it was reasonable, or for such a proportion of it as he would undertake to pay for the man.

7871. Were you in the employment of Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-I was a partner in the business at Ollaberry. I was in the employment of Mr. Gideon Anderson for years before, and then I was manager at Ollaberry, until I went to Lochend.

7372. Before you left Ollaberry you had not been in business for yourself, but you were merely manager for Anderson or Anderson & Co.?-The firm was Anderson Brothers & Laurenson, and I was a member of that firm.

7373. Before you left the firm, did that understanding which you have described exist among the fishing curers in this neighbourhood?-Yes.

7374. In your experience, was it generally acted upon?-I think it was. I may mention that I did not have to do with the fishermen in the summer season, while I managed the business at Ollaberry for seven years. I had only to do with the winter fishing. In the summer they fished for Hillswick, and I had nothing further than ordinary transactions with the fishermen then. It was chiefly the hosiery trade and the winter fishing that I knew about.

7375. But you were, to some extent, acquainted with the transactions which took place in the summer fishing?-Yes.

7376. And in describing this understanding, you are speaking from your general knowledge of the system pursued?-Yes.

7377. With what merchants, in this part of Shetland, did that understanding exist, and was acted upon? Did it extend to Messrs. Hay at North Roe; you have mentioned an instance in which it was acted upon with them?-That was in my own experience since.

7378. But did the understanding extend to them at that time?- Messrs. Hay & Co. had not a station there then: it was another firm.

7379. To whom did that understanding extend?-To Messrs. Adie, Mr. Inkster at Brae and to the firm of Anderson at Hillswick.

7380. Did it extend to the Mossbank people?-I cannot say. The fishermen were not very likely to remove from here to Mossbank, or from Mossbank to here.

7381. Did it extend to fishing stations in Yell?-I don't think so.

7382. Or further south to Reawick?-Not to my knowledge.

7383. The fishermen, you think, do not move about so far as that?-No. Perhaps I may be allowed to say with regard to the special case of a fisherman that I mentioned, that there was no previous arrangement between Mr. Greig and me about a general collection of debts from the men. I was merely pressing the debtor for payment, and Mr. Greig came forward as a friend.

7384. Do you mean that the understanding or practice which you have referred to does not exist so far as the Messrs. Hay are concerned?-There is no such understanding betwixt me and Messrs. Hay.

7385. And you have said that you did not refer to them when you spoke of the practice existing at a former time, when you were in a different firm?-No; I do not include them. With regard to another previous statement I wish also to say, that so far from wishing my customers to get into debt, I have had a notice signed to the effect that I would not give credit to knitters beyond four months, and then I reduced it to two months. That shows that it is against our interest, instead of being for our interest, to let them get into debt.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ANDREW RATTER, examined.

7386. You are a fisherman at North Roe?-I am.

7387. Are you a tenant of Messrs. Hay there?-Yes.

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7388. What balance was paid to you last year at settlement?-£5, 15s.

7389. Is that about the ordinary sum you have to get in a fair season?-Yes.

7390. How much was your account for furnishings for your family?-Between £3 and £4.

7391. Is that about an ordinary thing too?-I think some of the men take more than that.

7392. Do you generally deal at Messrs. Hay's shop at North Roe for all the things you want in the way of provisions and clothing?-Yes.

7393. Do you deal anywhere else?-Very little.

7394. Where else: at Lochend?-No; I don't deal at Lochend.

7395. Do you deal any at Lerwick?-No; I don't deal anywhere to any great extent except at North Roe.

7396. Is it usual for the men there to deal chiefly with Messrs. Hay?-Yes; so far as I know.

7397. Is there no other shop convenient for them?-Not very convenient.

7398. Are the articles you get very satisfactory in quality?-Yes; I have always found them so.

7399. What do you pay for your tea?-From 8d. to 10d. a quarter.

7400. What do you pay for your meal just now?-It varies in price, according to the seasons. I could not exactly say what the meal is just now, because I am not buying any at present. The last I bought was in the summer, when I went to the fishing, and I think paid 5s. 4d. per lispund of 32 lbs. for it.

7401. Is it by lispund weight you generally buy it?-It is sometimes by lispund weight, and sometimes by boll weight.

7402. What is the price of a boll?-22s.

7403. Have you ever fished for other fish-curers than Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes; I fished for the late James Peterson at North Roe. That was before Messrs. Hay got the shop there.

7404. Since Messrs. Hay have had a place there, have you ever fished for any other merchants?-No.

7405. Have you ever sold your fish to other curers?-No.

7406. Not your small fish?-No.

7407. Have you never sold a single fish to anybody except Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I recollect selling perhaps a cwt. or two through the winter to Mr. Inkster at North Roe.

7408. Were you paid in cash for them?-Yes.

7409. Did Mr. Greig find any fault with you for doing so?-No.

7410. Did he know of it?-Yes; I made no secret of it. I did it openly.

7411. Is it understood that you are at liberty to sell your fish in winter to anybody you like?-No.

7412. But you sometimes take the liberty of doing it?-Yes.

7413. Why did you prefer to sell your fish at that time to Mr. Inkster rather than to Mr. Greig?-I had perhaps a small account with Inkster at the time and he preferred the fish rather than cash.

7414. Does he cure fish himself?-Yes; a little.

7415. Do you go to the Faroe fishing?-No.

7416. Do you pay your rent to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes.

7417. Is it settled along with your account with them?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JANE HALCROW, examined.

7418. You live with your mother near Hillswick?-I do.

7419. Is she a widow?-Yes.

7420. Has your mother a piece of land?-Yes.

7421. How do you work it: do you manage it for her?-No.

7422. Do you get a man to work it for you?-No, we work it ourselves.

7423. Do you live with your mother alone, or is there anybody else in the house?-There is a servant.

7424. Is your land on the Busta estate?-Yes.

7425. Do you do a good deal in knitting?-Not a great deal, but I do some.

7426. Where do you sell it?-At different shops; generally at Hillswick, and sometimes I sell it in Lerwick, and sometimes at Ollaberry.

7427. What makes you go to Lerwick and Ollaberry with your work?-I cannot say.

7428. Do you just go there when you want to go?-Yes.

7429. Do you get a better price there for your knitting than you do at Hillswick?-No; it is just about the same.

7430. How are you paid for it?-Generally in goods.

7431. Do you sometimes get a little money?-It is not much money that I get, but I get stamps when I ask them.

7432. What do you knit?-Principally ladies' slips or spencers.

7433. What is the price of them?-From 1s. 6d. to 1s. 8d.: perhaps we may get as much as 2s. when they are good.

7434. That is the price of them in goods?-Yes.

7435. Did you ever sell any of them for all money?-No.

7436. Why?-I never asked it.

7437. Would you rather have had money?-Yes; sometimes.

7438. Then why did you not ask it?-Because I was generally needing the goods.

7439. But you said you would sometimes rather have had the money: why did you not ask it then? Was it because the practice is not to give money for hosiery?-I suppose it was.

7440. Did you not ask it because you would not get it?-I knew that if I had asked it I might have got a little.

7441. Would you prefer to get some money for your hosiery whenever you take it to sell?-Yes.

7442. Do you think you would get less money for it than you get in goods?-I don't know.

7443. Who do you sell it to in Lerwick?-Mr. Sinclair.

7444. Do you keep an account with him?-No.

7445. Do you keep an account at any of the shops?-Yes; I sometimes keep an account at Hillswick with Mr. Anderson.

7446. How often do you settle it?-Sometimes at the end of the year, and sometimes oftener.

7447. Is there anything entered in that account as having been sold by you except hosiery?-No.

7448. Are there no eggs?-No; we sell eggs, but they are never put into our account; they are just paid for at the time.

7449. Do you get money for them?-Yes; if it is asked.

7450. Do you often ask for money?-Not very often.

7451. Why do you not ask for it?-Because we are commonly taking tea.

7452. Do you want the tea?-Yes.

7453. How many eggs would you sell in a month in summer? Three or four dozen?-We might.

7454. What do you get for the dozen?-6d.

7455. Do you always take the price of it in tea?-Not always, but generally.

7456. Do you ever sell them anywhere else except Hillswick?- No.

7457. Are the goods which you get in payment for your hosiery put on the other side of your account, in order to settle it?-Yes; when the hosiery is not paid up.

7458. Do you sometimes get your hosiery paid up at the time?- Yes, generally.

7459. But you said you had an account: is that account for goods supplied to your family?-No; it is sometimes for cotton.

7460. Is that for your own dress?-Yes.

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7461. Is your hosiery always paid for in dresses and clothing for yourself?-Generally.

7462. Do you pay your account altogether in hosiery?-Yes.

7463. You never pay money for what you want?-No.

7464. Do you deal for cotton and dresses anywhere else than at Hillswick?-No.

7465. Do you got these things as good and as cheap there as you could get them elsewhere?-I suppose I do.

7466. Have you never tried them elsewhere?-Yes; I have got them in Lerwick from Mr Sinclair.

7467. Were the goods you got there of the same quality, or were they better or worse than at Mr. Anderson's?-They were just about the same, I suppose.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, Rev. JAMES R. SUTHERLAND, examined.

7468. You are the minister of the parish of Northmaven?-I am.

7469. How long have you been so?-Since November 1848.

7470. You are, I presume, intimately acquainted with the condition of the people in your parish?-Perfectly so-as much as any minister can be.

7471. And you know the system which prevails, and which has been described in the evidence yesterday and to-day, with regard to the payment for fish in account with the fish-curer, and also with regard to hosiery?-Yes; I am acquainted with that generally.

7472. You have not been cited to attend here to-day?-No.

7473. But I understand you are willing and desirous to make some statement with regard to the effects of that system upon the habits of the people?-I am perfectly willing.

7474. Do you think the system of long payments which exists here is a wholesome one as regards the habits of the fishermen?-I think it is most ruinous. I think I have had very good opportunities of judging of the effect of the system upon the people, being intimately acquainted with them, and having received the statements in private of a great many of them; and I cannot conceive any system which could be more ruinous in a moral point of view, apart altogether from its effect upon them in a pecuniary way. In my opinion, the independence of the people is wholly destroyed. There is scarcely a man I know, with very few exceptions, who is not in terror, and terror that I could scarcely describe, of the merchant to whom he is indebted, and I believe that three-fourths of the whole of my parishioners are in debt to some merchant or other, and thoroughly under their control.

7475. What is your ground for saying that so many your own parishioners are in debt?-I know it from their own lips.

7476. Do you speak of the present time?-Yes, of the present time. There are a few exceptions to that, some of which I could point out, but not many.

7477. Do you consider that the state of indebtedness is greater at the present time, or less, than it has been generally throughout your experience in the parish?-I don't see any improvement in that respect, taking the whole population. There might be one here and one there who have got free of debt this year, because it has been an exceptionally good year in cattle; but, taking them as the same state of serfdom as they were twenty-three years ago, when I came here.

7478. Your ground for that statement, I understand, is the information you have received from the people themselves?-Yes.

7479. Do you think the people generally who make these statements to you are to be relied upon?-Generally, I think so, because I am exceedingly well acquainted with many of their circumstances, and I know those who are comparatively independent. I speak only of that independence which we might expect from such it population. There are many of them who are in a position which we would call pretty comfortable. I know that from having the management of their affairs privately; but I don't believe that, for the last fifteen or twenty years, the people who are in such circumstances have increased in number, or have increased the amount of the savings which are at their credit in places that I know.

7480. That statement you have now made refers to the better-off class among them?-Yes; to the better-off class, but they are very few compared with the rest.