Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (31)

8123. But he mentioned it to you when you met him personally?- Yes; he mentioned it more than once.

8124. And that was about the time when Harrison was applying for leave to open his shop?-Yes.

8125. I presume there is no understanding between the Busta trustees and any of the merchants whose establishments are upon the estate that these merchants are responsible for the rents of the men?-There is no understanding of the kind. There is not a single tenant on the Busta estate, out of the whole 480 on it, or out of the 530 with whom I have to do that any of the merchants is liable for, even as a cautioner. That used to be the case some time before but it has not been so for a long time.

8126. Do you know, in the course of your dealings with the tenants, whether there is any arrangement between the merchants you have named, or any of them, to the effect that when a man ceases to fish for one and has a debt due to him, the merchant who engages him must undertake that debt?-There is no such arrangement that I am aware of. Some years ago, I believe, that was done by some parties, but I don't think it is done by any of them now. I refer to the practice of a merchant when he engages men taking over the debt or part of the debt which they are due to their old employer.

8127. You don't know about that?-Yes, I know about it. I know that there was such an arrangement some years ago.

8128. I suppose if Mr. Anderson told you it not given up, you would be quite prepared to believe that that arrangement still exists?-I believe it was given up, because in most of the cases when a merchant took over a debt in that way, very little of the old debt was paid. I have known parties take over with debts of £15 and £20 standing against them, and these debts never were reduced.

8129. Had you any concern with that arrangement yourself?- None whatever. I merely heard of it.

8130. I believe most of the merchants or fish-curers are also dealers in cattle?-I believe they are, to some extent.

8131. They purchase them both privately and at the periodical sales which are held for each estate?-Yes.

8132. Would you describe shortly the nature of the sales that are held? They are held twice a-year, are they not?-Yes, twice a-year for the Busta and Ollaberry tenants, and they are sometimes held at North Roe for the Gossaburgh tenants. But there are always sales at Ollaberry and Mavisgrind, generally at the end of October, for the tenants cattle.

8133. What is the reason for having sales for these particular estates?-Merely to give the tenants the advantage of having their cattle sold. I am not aware any other reason than that. At the Busta sale cattle belonging to other parties are taken in, as well as cattle belonging to the tenants, although it is only for the benefit of the tenants on the estate that the sales are held.

8134. At these sales, are many of the cattle purchased [Page 199] by the merchants?-A good many. With reference to my former statement, that £327 is the rent of the four shops, I wish to explain that that is much short of what it should be. It is nearly £450 for the four; and my explanation of that is, that Mr. Adie has got a large park in connection with his premises, and Mr. Inkster and Mr. Anderson have the same at Brae and Hillswick, and they all require to buy extensively for their parks.

8135. Are you acquainted with the practice in this country of a creditor marking cattle, and holding them as a kind of security for debt?-Yes.

8136. Is that a common thing here?-I don't know if it is common; but I have known several cases where it has been done.

8137. I suppose that where a merchant does that it is not held to interfere with the landlord's hypothec or his rent?-No. The rents are generally paid before the merchants interfere in any way with the cattle.

8138. But when a merchant interferes with cattle in that way, or purchases them in at a sale, he buys them of course subject to the landlord's right?-If he buys them at a sale, he buys them direct off, and pays the money for them; but if he secures the animal privately, it generally remains with the party until it is taken away. In a transaction of that kind, the animal is priced, and it is removed at a convenient time for both parties. It does not come to a public sale at all.

8139. The animal, in that case, is retained by the tenant?-It is marked and priced and retained by the tenant, and taken over by the purchaser when he wants it.

8140. The cattle are priced the time they are pledged, or marked as it were?-I believe they are.

8141. Is that an arrangement between the merchant and the tenant?-Entirely.

8142. And they arrange the price between themselves, or does the merchant put the price on the cattle?-I think it is a mutual arrangement, because there is much competition for cattle, that the merchant must do that.

8143. Do you think there is any understanding between the merchants, that when a marked beast is exposed at any one of these periodical sales, the other merchants shall not bid against the merchant for whom the animal has been marked, but that it shall be knocked down to him?-I believe that very few of the marked animals are ever exposed at the sales, but I have known them exposed in some cases. I have known cattle being marked in that way, or pledged to Mr. Inkster at Brae; and if brought to the sale, they would have been entered in his name or in the name of the party who brought them, and the sellers would have got the full price.

8144. But more commonly, cattle that are so marked are taken over by the merchant himself privately?-Yes. I have known no other cases of parties bringing them to the sale, except Mr. Inkster.

8145. If a merchant does take over a beast in that way privately, I suppose you would still hold him responsible for the rent, if still unpaid, to the extent of the value of that beast, and if the period of your hypothec had not expired?-Certainly.

8146. Do you often have occasion to arrange with merchants in that sort of way?-No, very seldom. The rents are very generally paid up.

8147. Do you think the introduction of a system of short settlements, if it could be effected, would improve the character of the people on the Busta estate?-I believe it would.

8148. You would be in favour of such a system?-Certainly I would.

8149. From what you know of the country and of the people, do you think such a system would be practicable?-I don't know if it would be practicable in some cases. With regard to the fishermen, I don't think a short-settlement system would be practicable.

8150. Is that because the men are so much in need of advances at the beginning of the season?-Yes; they cannot get on until they receive advances. There would be no fishing at all if there were no advances.

8151. But under another system would advances be impracticable?-I don't know what that other system might be.

8152. Suppose the agreement was that the fishermen were to receive a bounty at the beginning of the season, which would enable them to equip themselves, and that the price for the fish was fixed at the end, so that the men would have the advantage of any rise that might take place, would that system be a better one than the present, in your opinion?-They would not have the advantage of the rise if the price were fixed.

8153. I am not supposing the price to be fixed. I am supposing the man to get a bounty which would be calculated very considerably within the probable value of his catch of fish for the season, and that the settlement was made at the end according to the market price when the fisherman would get anything additional that might be due?-I am not aware how that system might work.

8154. Have you any knowledge of the system adopted at Wick with regard to the herring fishery?-Yes. I know something about it.

8155. Is there not some system of that kind followed there?-I could not say just now.

8156. Do you think the system of paying for hosiery in goods is a good one?-No; I think it is a very bad system. I think the hosiery should be paid for in money, and the goods sold at the same price.

8157. Do you think the system has a bad effect in the separation of interests it creates between the different members of the same family?-I think it has a bad effect in this way, that some parties would be more careful if they had their money, whereas at the present time they don't have the chance of that.

8158. Does the same objection apply to the long settlements with the fishermen which you make with regard to the system of paying for the hosiery?-Yes. There is often a long settlement in the payment for the hosiery too. There is an account run for the payment of hosiery with many of the women. That would not signify so much if they were paid in cash when the settlement comes; but I am not aware that that is done, except perhaps in a few cases.

8159. Do you think women are induced under the present system to take more articles of dress than they require?-Not of dress.

8160. But they take anything they require unless money?-Some of them take provisions, and meal, and tea.

8161. In your part of the country, are provisions given for hosiery as well as goods?-Yes, and I know that hereabout a little cash is given too, but in very exceptional cases.*

*Mr. Gifford handed in the following statement, showing the number of holdings on the Busta and other estates under his charge and the amount of rent-

<No. of holdings on Busta. No. of holdings on other properties.>

Under £1 29 Under £1 2 " 2 38 " 2 2 " 3 53 " 3 5 " 4 83 " 4 4 " 5 101 " 5 8 " 6 92 " 6 9 " 7 86 " 7 8 " 8 19 " 8 4 " 9 11 " 9 4 " 10 2 " 12 2 " 12 7 " 14 1 " 14 4 Larger holdings 1 Larger holdings 5 50 480 Total rental, £2701 13 8 Total rental, £344 2 0

Brae, January 13, 1872, Mrs. CHRISTIAN JOHNSTON, examined.

8162. Are you the wife of a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-My husband was a fisherman once, but he does not fish now.

8163. Do you knit or weave?-I both knit and make gray cloth.

[Page 200]

8164. Do you sell both these articles at Brae or in Lerwick?-I sell them to any person that I get the wool from. I don't have wool of my own.

8165. By whom are you generally employed?-I have made some gray cloth for Mr. Anderson and some for Mr. Adie.

8166. Is it mostly gray cloth that you make?-Yes.

8167. Do you go to the shops and get the wool when you are out of it?-Yes.

8168. Do you buy it, or is it given to you?-We buy it.

8169. When you go back with it, are you paid for the work which you have put upon it?-We buy the wool, and then they buy the cloth from us again.

8170. What do you pay for the wool?-I bought 28 lbs. of it, and it was 1s. a lb.

8171. Do you spin it yourself?-Yes.

8172. How do you make the cloth?-There are men on the islands called wabsters who weave it.

8173. Then you spin the wool and take it to the wabsters to weave?-Yes.

8174. Do you pay for the wool when you get it at first?-We cannot pay for the wool until we get the cloth.

8175. Is it put down in your account?-Yes.

8176. And you are charged 1s. for it?-Yes.

8177. Do you take your web back to the merchant, or does the wabster take it to him?-I take the web and dress it, and go to the merchant with it.

8178. Who pays the wabster?-The merchant of course; it comes off what I have to get.

8179. Is the wabster paid at the time when he does the work, or when you come back from the merchant?-I pay him when I come back from the merchant after I have sold the cloth.

8180. How much cloth would you make out of 28 lbs. of wool?-I made 27 yards out of it.

8181. You make about a yard of cloth out of a pound of wool?- Yes; that is generally the way of it when it is ordinary wool.

8182. What is the price put upon the cloth when you take it back to the merchant?-That is just as the price stands; sometimes the price is up and sometimes not.

8183. But you spoke of a particular time when you got 28 lbs. of wool: was that long ago?-I got it in Christmas week, and I went back with it in the month of April.

8184. What did you get for it?-I got 2s. a yard.

8185. That would be 1s. a yard, for your work and the wabster?- Yes.

8186. Is that about an ordinary price?-It was the price that was given then.

8187. Do you sometimes get more than that?-Yes; if the price is up. I have got as high as 3s. 5d. for it.

8188. Was that long ago?-It is a few years since; I cannot recollect exactly.

8189. How are you paid for the cloth: do you get money for it?- Some pay in money and some not.

8190. Where do you get money?-I have got money in Mr. Adie's.

8191. Did you get money at that time when you went in April?- No.

8192. Why?-I don't know.

8193. What did you get?-I had just to take anything that was in the shop

8194. Were you told that you would not get money?-Yes.

8195. Did you want money?-Of course, I wanted a little.

8196. How much did you ask for?-I asked for the wabster's money. It was rather more than 6s.

8197. Did you get it?-Yes.

8198. Did you say you had to pay the wabster?-Yes; he was an old man, and I had to pay him.

8199. Why did you not get the rest in money?-The merchant made an objection that he would not.

8200. Why?-I don't know why.

8201. Did he say the bargain was that was to be paid in goods?- No, he could not say that.

8202. Why? Had you agreed upon a price before?-No.

8203. You were just to take the price that was the market price when you brought the cloth back?-Yes.

8204. Did you offer to take a less price if he gave the money?-He would give no money at all.

8205. Are you ever paid in money for your cloth?-Yes. I have been paid in money for some cloth.

8206. Is it a general thing in the country to pay in money, or to pay in goods?-When people have wool of their own, they make a difference.

8207. How would they make a difference?-Because if the wool had belonged to me I could have gone to any other merchant and sold it, but the wool was his.

8208. Was not the wool your own in this case?-If I had been able to pay for the wool when I took out, then it would have been my own.

8209. You mean that you got the wool on credit?-Yes.

8210. You had bought the wool, but you had not paid for it?-Yes.

8211. It was entered against you at 1s. a pound?-Yes.

8212. Then the wool was your own, although you might be owing Mr. Adie money for the price?-It was not Mr. Adie that that wool belonged to: it was Mr. Anderson that I got it from.

8213. And he would not give you the money at all?-He would not.

8214. Why did you not take it to somebody else and sell it for, money? If you had done that, you could then have sent the 28s. to Mr. Anderson, which you were due to him for the wool: did you not think of doing that?-No; I did not think of doing it.

8215. Could you have done that?-I might; I don't know; I never asked.

8216. Do you think Mr. Anderson would have objected, or would he have allowed you to take the cloth away again after you had brought it?-I cannot say because I never asked about that.

8217. Did you ever ask money before with which to pay the wabster?-Yes.

8218. Did you get it?-I have got money before from Mr. Anderson himself,-money to pay the wabster.

8219. Did you get as much as you wanted for that purpose?-Yes; just for the wabster.

8220. But not for your own work?-No.

8221. You had to take what was due you for your own work in goods?-Yes.

8222. I suppose you always wanted these goods for your own use?-We are always needing goods.

8223. But were you quite content to take the goods in place of money?-Yes, sometimes.

8224. You would rather have had the money sometimes?-Yes.

8225. But was it not the rule in the trade, and was it not the bargain made with you, that you were to take goods, and not to seek money?-No; there was no bargain made about it.

8226. Is it not the understanding in the trade that the cloth is to be paid for in goods and not in money?-I don't know.

8227. Have you made any cloth since that?-Yes. I made a piece for Mr Adie, but I got the money for it.

8228. Did you get money for the whole value?-Yes.

8229. Or was it just what you required for the wabster?-No; I got money for all that I had to get.

8230. Did you get the wool on that occasion from Mr. Adie?- Yes.

8231. He just charged you for the wool and gave you the whole balance for your work in money?-Yes.

8232. What quantity was there of that?-I don't recollect; we are always getting something out of the shop.

8233. Then you did not get the whole price of your work at that time in money?-No; I had got something out of the shop before that I was needing.

8234. You were due an account at the shop?-Yes.

[Page 201]

8235. Was that account as much as the value of the cloth?-No.

8236. You had something over to get?-Yes.

8237. Did you get what was over in money?-Yes, I got £1.

8238. Was that lately?-It was before Christmas.

8239. Do you keep an account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-No, I keep no account.

8240. But you had an account at the time when you settled for that cloth?-Yes.

8241. How long had that account been running?-For about two years.

8242. Did you go and get the wool and make the cloth in order to settle up that account?-Yes.

8243. Was your husband fishing at the time when you were due that account?-No; it was my own account.

8244. Is it a usual thing for a woman, when she is making cloth in that way, to have an account of her own with the merchant?-Yes.

8245. She gets the goods she wants and then settles for them when she brings the cloth?-Yes.

8246. How often do you settle when you have an account running in that way?-It is not often that I make the cloth, for I have very little time in which to make it.

8247. Do you ever knit?-I knit very little except what is required for my own family.

8248. Do any of your daughters help you in making the cloth or in knitting?-Yes.

8249. You all work at it?-Yes.

8250. Have you separate accounts, or do you all keep the same account with the merchant for your cloth?-We all keep the same account. We have no separate accounts.

8251. Do you think you would be better off if you got the whole payment of your cloth in money?-We might be better, but we are always needing something from the merchant.

8252. You don't think you could buy your goods any cheaper if you had money?-I don't know.

Brae, January 13, 1872, MRS GRACE WILLIAMSON, examined.

8253. Do you live in Muckle Roe?-Yes.

8254. Do you knit and also make cloth?-Yes.

8255. Have you heard what Mrs. Johnston said just now?-Yes.

8256. Have you the same way of dealing about your cloth which she has described?-No. I do not make any cloth except with what little wool I have of my own, and I sell it. I am paid for it just at the price which is going.

8257. Are you paid for it in money or in goods?-I get the price either in goods or in money, either way I choose to ask it.

8258. Do you generally get the same price for your cloth if you take it in money?-Yes. I sold a piece this winter to Mr. Adie, and I got the same in money for it as I would have got in goods.

8259. How much did you sell?-I sold about 30 yards.

8260. What was the price of it?-3s. 1d.

8261. Was the price higher then than it was in April?-Yes.

8262. Was your cloth better than Mrs. Johnston's?-I do not know.

8263. Was that paid to you altogether in money?-No; I took some goods.

8264. Had you an account at the shop at that time?-No. I never had any kind of credit in the shop before. I did not mark anything.

8265. Had you got anything before from the shop at all?-No.

8266. You just took some goods at the time when you took in the cloth?-Yes.

8267. What was the price of the goods you bought?-I can scarcely recollect.

8268. Was it £2 or £3?-No; I think it was something more than £1, but I cannot recollect.

8269. And you got the rest in money?-Yes.

8270. That would be £3 or £4 you would get in money?-I don't recollect what it was. My husband was along with me, and I did not keep an account for myself.

8271. Was it your husband that took in the cloth?-He and I were together.

8272. Have you always continued dealing in the same manner, getting what you wanted in goods, and as much as you required in money?-Yes, of course. Mr. Inkster is the only merchant we have any credit with.

8273. Have you an account with Mr. Inkster?-Yes.

8274. Does your husband fish for him?-Yes.

8275. And do you sell cloth to him too?-Yes; I sold some last year to him.

8276. Have you a book with him?-No; we don't keep any account ourselves. The things are entered in the book which he keeps himself.

8277. Have you an account with him in your own name as well as your husband?-I don't have any account in my name. One account serves for us both.

8278. Is it customary in these parts for one account to do for both husband and wife?-I don't know about any one except myself.

8279. Do you knit any?-A little but the cloth is the most that I do.

8280. Do you get money for your cloth at Mr. Inkster's place if you want it?-Yes, we get money if we ask for it.

8281. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year when you settle?-Yes.

8282. That balance is for your husband's fish and for your cloth?-Yes.

8283. That is to say, what you have to get for your fish and your cloth is a good deal more than you have to pay for things you have got out of the shop?-Of course it is.

8284. And you have to pay your rent out of that balance?-Yes.

8285. Have you always been in the habit of getting money for your wabster?-Yes; when we require money and ask for it we get it.

8286. Would you have got as much money two or three years ago as you got the last time you went with cloth?-No; cloth was not so high last year as it was then.

8287. But suppose you had, two or three years ago, taken a web that was worth £4, would you have got £2 or £3 in money on the price of it?-Yes, if I had asked for it I would have got it.

8288. Would you have got that five years ago if you had been selling it at that time?-I don't know about five years ago. I don't recollect.

8289. Did you ever get as much money before as you got on that last occasion?-Yes; but we took goods when we required them. There were some years ago when we were getting a bigger price. Mr. Anderson gave 3s. 8d. out-takes (<i.e.> in goods), and 3s. 5d. in money; but I don't recollect how long ago that was.

8290. Then there were two prices for your cloth?-Yes.

8291. Did you ever sell £4 worth of cloth four or five years ago?- I don't think it.

8292. Did you ever sell £2 worth?-I think so.

8293. Did you ever get one-half or three-fourths of that in money?-I cannot recollect; it was always my husband who went with it, and he would recollect better.

8294. Did you ever get above 5s. in money for your wabster before this time?-Yes; we have got more than that, if we asked for it.

8295. How much more?-I cannot say exactly. We just got what we asked, unless the price was all the lower.

8296. Did you ever get 10s. in cash before?-Yes.

8297. Did you ever get 15s. in cash?-Yes.

[Page 202]

8298. Or £1?-Yes: I have got that too, if I had to get, and if I was not taking out goods.

8299. If you got £1, how much would be the price of the web which you took in?-I could not say unless I recollected exactly what number of yards there were.

8300. But you said you never sold as much as £4 worth before?-I don't mind about that. I may have done it, but I don't recollect.

8301. Do you ever mind of selling £3 worth?-Yes.

8302. Did you ever get £1 in cash out of that?-Yes; I would have got £1 out of that.

8303. But did you get it?-Well, we have got it, but I cannot mind the time exactly.

8304. Do you think it has been easier to get cash for your webs during the last year than it was before?-It may have been; but we were always needing goods, and it is just as well for us to take goods when we are needing them, as to get money and go anywhere else farther off. Of course, if we did not get goods here at a reasonable price, we might get them farther off.

8305. I suppose you know that you want the goods yourself?- Yes.

8306. And you know that the merchant would rather sell you the goods than give you money?-I cannot say that I ever saw any case with any merchant I ever dealt with where he would not give us the money if we had asked for it. I never was much in debt to any merchant.

8307. But it was mostly your husband that took the goods in?- Yes. I never was much in with any merchant, and therefore I could go to any place where thought I could get most for my work.

Brae, January 13, 1872, MARGARET WILLIAMSON, examined.

8308. Do you live in Muckle Roe?-Yes.

8309. Do you knit or make cloth?-I knit mostly, but I make some cloth too. I knit men's shirts and women's sleeves.

8310. Do you knit with your own wool?-I have to buy some but I have some of my own too.

8311. The wool was not given out to you to knit?-No.

8312. Where do you sell what you knit?-For the last three years I have sold it in Lerwick.

8313. Do you always go to Lerwick with it?-Yes, with all that I knit.

8314. Do you always get goods for your knitting?-Yes; I get goods, because I can get nothing else.

8315. Do you want to get money?-I hardly ever ask for money. I asked for a penny the last time out of 35s., and they refused to give it to me. I bought all that I could buy out of the work I had taken in and when it came to the last penny I asked for it, but they would not give it. That was at Mr. Linklater's.

8316. What did he say he would give it in: sweeties?-No; they would not keep any sweeties for fear of having to give them.

8317. What did they give you?-They gave me the penny at length, but they said we must take goods.

8318. Did you need all these goods for your own use?-I needed them all at that time, but I don't need them all now. If I knit any, I need hardly any goods now.

8319. If you were knitting now, you would rather have the money?-Yes; because I am needing hardly anything else.

8320. Do you live with your parents?-Yes.

8321. I suppose you would like to help them a little in keeping the house if you could get money for your knitting?-Yes; because my father is an old man, and is very sickly, and he is not able to keep the house as he used to do.

8322. Is it the case that you cannot help him because you cannot get money for your knitting?-Yes; I cannot help him in that way.

8323. Have you ever given away any of the goods you have got to your neighbours for money or for provisions?-No; I kept them all to myself.

8324. Do you sell the cloth you make in the same way that Mrs. Johnston and Mrs. Williamson have stated?-Yes.

8325. You get some wool from the merchant?-Yes.

8326. And that is set down against your name in an account?- Yes; until the cloth is brought back to the shop.

8327. When the cloth is brought back, the price the wool is deducted?-Yes.

8328. Do you get the balance in money?-Yes always in money, if I like to take it in money.

8329. Do you sometimes take it in goods?-I generally take it in money, because I am not needing goods.

8330. Do you think you would get a bigger price if you took it in goods?-Sometimes it is all the same. This year it is all the same whether you take money or goods.

8331. But some years it is different?-Yes, a little.

8332. Does the merchant tell you generally that he would rather you were to take the price out in goods?-No. The most of the cloth which I have made has been for Mr. Adie, and he gives me the money just soon as the goods.

Brae, January 13, 1872, GIDEON WILLIAMSON, examined.

8333. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I am.

8334. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.

8335. Whom do you fish for generally?-For Inkster. I have fished for him for five years.

8336. Do you settle every year in the spring?-We settle at Hallowmas for the twelve months.

8337. Do you always deal in Mr. Inkster's shop-Yes; I deal oftenest there.

8338. What do you go for elsewhere?-It is very trifling. My dealings are mostly with him.

8339. Is that because you fish for him?-Yes.

8340. Have you an account?-Yes.

8341. Are you obliged to deal on credit?-Yes, sometimes I am, because I must have supplies.

8342. Is that the reason why you go to his shop?-No. I would just as soon deal with him, if I had money, as I would go elsewhere.

8343. Is there any other place hereabout where you could deal?- Yes; but I would just as soon deal with Mr. Inkster as with any other man.

8344. Are you generally behind at the settlement?-Sometimes I am a little.

8345. But sometimes you have a balance to get in cash?- Sometimes; but sometimes the seasons are so bad that I have to go to him for a little supplies.

8346. I suppose that is the reason why you continue to fish for him? If you owe him a little money, you don't like to go and fish for another man?-I don't see what I could get by fishing for another; I pay him the same for his goods, and he pays me the same for my fish as another would do.

8347. Are his goods of as good a quality as in other shops?-Yes.

8348. Have you known any fishermen who have left one employer and gone to fish for another?-No; not that I could point out.

8349. A man generally continues to fish for the same merchant?- Yes; unless it may be a man who changes and goes south.

8350. But if he remains in the same place, does he generally go on fishing for the same merchant for years?-Yes; but I have heard of some of them shifting.

8351. What do they shift for generally?-They may shift to get chances in boats belonging to other curers.

8352. They think they may be better off perhaps by getting into another crew?-Yes.

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8353. Do men sometimes want to shift to another crew or another master, and are prevented from doing so because they are in debt?-I have never tried that.

8354. Do you know whether that is ever the case?-I could not answer that question, because I would not like to say anything I was not sure about.

8355. I suppose you would not think of leaving Mr. Inkster so long as you were in his debt?-Even if I was clear with him, I see no good I could do to myself by leaving him. If I ask him for money, I get it, just the same as out-takes; and I get out-takes from him, just the same as if I was paying down ready money for them.

8356. Do you think you would be any better off if you had not to run such a long account?-I don't know. A poor man generally can have very little until it comes perhaps to the twelvemonth's end; and if it were not that we have sometimes a beast to sell, or something like that, we would have very little to live on throughout the year, because the fishing time is only for about three months in the summer.

8357. You think if you were settled with at shorter periods, you would not have enough to carry you through the year?-Yes.

8358. And you could not settle with the merchant at the end, because the account you have to pay is bigger than what you have to get?-Yes.

8359. Is that sometimes the case?-Yes; because for some years there has been a good deal of bread to get in consequence of lean crops, and that brings the poor fishermen very much down.

Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN WOOD, examined.

8360. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I am.

8361. Do you fish for Mr. Inkster?-Yes.

8362. Have you heard what Gideon Williamson said?-Yes.

8363. Is your way of dealing the same as he has described?-Yes; the very same.

8364. Have you anything different to say?-No.

8365. How long have you fished for Mr. Inkster?-Nine years.

8366. Have you ever wished to change?-No.

8367. Do you always get your supplies from him?-Yes.

8368. Are you generally somewhat behind at the end of the year?-Sometimes.

8369. Who did you fish for before?-Mr. Anderson.

8370. Why did you leave him?-Because it was more convenient for us where we lived to fish for Mr. Inkster.

8371. Were you clear with Mr. Anderson when you left him?- Very nearly. I think I was due him £1 or so.

8372. When did you pay that up?-Mr. Inkster paid it up for me. He sent it to Mr. Anderson at the end of the season.

8373. Is that a usual thing to do when a man has shifted?-Yes,

8374. His new employer pays up the whole of his debt?-Yes.

8375. Have you heard of that being done often?-Yes; I have heard of it being done.

Brae, January 13, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, examined.

8376. You are a tenant on the Busta estate?-Yes.

8377. Do you fish any?-No.

8378. I understand you have come here to say something about your line of life and its bearing upon this inquiry: what is it?-My principal means of living is that I get an annuity for keeping some pauper lunatics belonging to several parishes, Delting and Tingwall, and so forth.

8379. What have you got to say about that?-At the time when I commenced to do that, I unfortunately was not clear with the man who now supplies me.

8380. Who is that?-Mr. Thomas Adie.

8381. Had you been a fisherman before?-No; I had been a sawyer for many years.

8382. Had you kept an account at Voe?-Yes.

8383. Were you behind with it?-Yes, a little.

8384. How much?-I could not exactly say, but it was a good deal.

8385. Was it £20?-Perhaps more at times, and sometimes less; but we will say it was that.

8386. What have you to say about it?-I want to speak about the way of supply, and the prices of provisions and other things; I never had my money at command.

8387. How long ago is it since you had that debt?-It is perhaps ten years ago since I commenced with one pauper, and then I got another one. I gave Mr. Adie leave to draw my money with which to settle my accounts, and I got supplies from him.

8388. Where do you draw your money from?-From the parishes that I had got the lunatics from.

8389. Was it because you were due Mr. Adie money when you left that you gave him leave to draw your money?-It was not that altogether. It was quite right, when I was due him an account, that he should be paid for it, but he drew my money from the parishes and supplied me with meal. Perhaps I required ten or twelve sacks a year. I do not get it all from him now. If I had had the use of my money, I might have tried to settle the old account with Mr. Adie and have got my meal where I liked, but I could not do that. With the money I could have got my articles at cost price. I asked my money from Mr. Adie, but he refused to give it me some years ago.

8390. He refused to give it you because you had made an arrangement with him that he was to draw the money?-Yes; not to lay it out, but only to draw it for me.

8391. Was it not the arrangement that he was to draw it for you in order that he might pay his own debt?-We never had any arrangement of that kind, but that was perhaps considered to be the arrangement both by him and me. I would have done that willingly.

8392. Have you squared up your accounts with Mr. Adie at any time?-It is a good while since I was able to do that without injuring me otherwise; but Adie having the use of my money, I got my things from him.

8393. What was the account for which was due to Mr. Adie?-For meal principally, and clothing.

8394. Have you got an account?-Yes; it is in Mr. Adie's book at Voe.

8395. Have you gone over every year at settling time and squared up your account, and seen how much you were due to him, or how much he was due to you, at the end of the year?-Sometimes I did and sometimes not. I knew that I was not able to meet that account, because I did not have the use of my money. If I wanted a dozen sacks of meal, I was always told that there was 2s. a sack as commission for the risk of getting it, and ultimately I wrote to the meal dealers in the south, and I found that there was a difference of 10s. on the sack of meal; that, upon 12 sacks, would have been a saving of £6 alone.

8396. Did you give Mr. Adie an order to the inspector to pay the money to him which was due to you?-Yes, I told Mr. Adie to draw it for me, and I signed an order that he was to draw it.

8397. And he has drawn it ever since?-Yes.

8398. Was that for the money which you were to get from Delting parish?-Yes.

8399. Is Mr. Adie a member of the Parochial Board of that parish?-Yes.

8400. Is he the chairman?-I don't know.

8401. Who is the inspector of that parish?-Mr. Louttit.

8402. What do you think can be done for you?-I made my complaint to Mr. Adie lately about the state of these things; but it is not my wish to mention the names of any parties. It is only the practice that I object to.

[Page 204]

8403. What practice do you refer to?-This truck system, and the enormous prices that are charged.

8404. What have you to say about the prices? You have told me that you can save £6 on 12 sacks of meal by dealing south?-Yes, by dealing with Tod Brothers. I wrote to them about it, and they answered me.

8405. Have you got their answer?-No, I have not got it, but I remember it quite well.

8406. How long ago was that?-Just two or three years since.

8407. What was the price of Mr. Adie's meal at that time?-It was 34s. per sack for Indian corn meal.

8408. What was the price of Messrs. Tod Brothers'?-22s.

8409. That was it difference of 12s. per sack?-Yes, but it left me to pay the freight, which would be about 2s. 6d.

8410. Could you have got the meal brought up here for 2s. 6d.?- Yes, or whatever the 'Queen of the Isles' charged.

8411. How many sacks of Indian corn meal would you require in it year?-Perhaps about a dozen sacks.

8412. Do you feed the lunatics on that meal?-No, not the lunatics, but my own family, and sometimes the lunatics too.

8413. Have you made any comparison between the prices charged at Mr. Adie's shop and elsewhere?-Yes. I could buy it at Mr. Robertson's store, at Vidlin, for 27s.; that, upon 12 sacks, would make it difference 4s. between the two places.

8414. Could you not have got your meal from Mr. Robertson's store?-I got some of it, because I kept a party from Lunnasting, and I got part of my supplies there.

8415. Did you get your supplies for that lunatic from Lunnasting?-Occasionally, when I asked them.

8416. Had you an account there?-Yes; I could either get money or anything that I wanted which was due. I could not have done that with Mr. Adie; and therefore I have never been able to get clear of my debt to him.

8417. Did you bring your supplies all the way from Mr. Robertson's store to where you lived?-Yes.

8418. Was that because you kept a lunatic pauper from that parish?-Yes. I took advantage of that, because I could get my goods cheaper there but I could have got money as well, and have gone to any other place with it. If I had had money to get from Mr. Adie, I would have got it from him too with good will, but I never had it to get, and it is that which has kept me deeper and deeper in spite of all I could do.

8419. Could you not have gone to the Parochial Board of Delting, and got your money whenever you pleased, instead of letting Mr. Adie draw it?-I might have got it, but Mr. Adie at one settlement made up a line, and I was compelled to sign it, that he was to draw all the money which I had to get for the lunatic from that parish. I signed it because he wrote me a letter saying I was to come down and pay my account, and then to transfer my custom, which I was not able to do without leaving me destitute.

8420. Have you got that letter?-No.

8421. What did you do with it?-I just destroyed it carelessly.

8422. How long ago was that?-I could not exactly say. If I state it incorrectly, it is not done willingly, but it may have been three years since. At the same time I asked Mr. Adie to give me the use of my money, and to keep some of it in order to pay the old account, but he did not do it, and that is the main cause why I am so far behind. I could have had my account with him paid by the profits I could have saved from dealing in the south; I am perfectly sure of that.

8423. But if you wanted your money, why could you not have gone to the Parochial Board and told them to pay you, and not to regard Mr. Adie's orders about it?-What would have become of what I was due to Mr. Adie if I had got the money from the Parochial Board? It was my duty, and I had to pay it to him. At that very time Mr. Adie told his shopman not to supply me unless I came to his shop with cash.

8424. But you wanted to stop going to him because you thought you could get your supplies cheaper elsewhere?-If I had got my supplies in the south, I could have paid him something yearly and lived better. I was making my complaint to Mr. Adie lately, and he promised (and no man was ever deceived in anything that Mr. Adie ever promised, neither was I) that for the future I should get my things at cash price. So far as I am concerned, I have no cause of complaint now; but that has been the cause why I am in debt.

8425. How long ago was that arrangement made about getting your things at cash price?-It may be two or three months ago, and I have got a part of the debt realized since. I have no reason to doubt Mr. Adie's word, or that of any of his sons.

8426. You have one lunatic from Delting, and you have another from Lunnasting?-Yes. I have not got a lunatic from Lunnasting, but a pauper that I keep at a separate house.

8427. But in consequence of having that pauper you get some supplies at Vidlin?-Yes.

8428. Who pays you for the keep of that pauper?-The inspector, Mr. John Anderson, of Lunnasting.

8429. Was there any arrangement made when you got that pauper, that you were to take supplies at Vidlin?-None whatever; it is by my own will that I go there. I can get money, or anything I like; but when I find it convenient, and that the goods are cheaper there than elsewhere, I go and take them.

8430. Are Vidlin and Voe the only places where you get supplies?-Yes; I have dealt with Mr. Adie for thirty years; and I have no cause of complaint against him, except the enormous price which he generally charges for his goods.

8431. Is there any other article which you could name besides meal which is charged at an enormous price?-This place is farther north, and the goods here should be charged a shade dearer, because there is more expense in bringing them.

8432. But can you mention any one article, such as cotton or cloth, which is dearer here than at Lerwick?-You can make a better bargain in Lerwick than in the north.

8433. Have you done that frequently?-Yes.

8434. You only keep three paupers?-Yes.

Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES ROBERTSON, examined.

8435. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I was a fisherman at one time, but I am not fishing now; I am too old to go to sea.

8436. Has it always been the practice of the fishermen there to deal with the merchants they sell their fish to?-Yes; for forty years back. I have been about thirty years in the fishing.

8437. Have you been at the Faroe fishing?-No; I always went to the ling fishing.

8438. Did you always keep an account with the merchant who employed you?-Yes.

8439. Did you always fish for the same merchant?-Yes, for John Anderson & Co. and for Mr. Leisk, who was there before them.

8440. You always had an account at Hillswick?-Yes.

8441. Did you always go to Hillswick for your supplies?-No; only twice a year. I went for my fishing gear before the season began, and then at the end of the season I went again to settle.

8442. Did you get supplies then?-Yes, if I needed them.

8443. Did you always get the balance in cash when it was due?- Very often it was not due, and I could not expect a thing which was not due.

8444. Why was it not due?-Because of the bad [Page 205] fishings, and of the meal being very dear then; much more so than it is now.

8445. Did you always get more supplies than the value of your fish?-No, I did not do that always.

8446. But generally?-No, not at any time; I always tried to deal so as not to be in debt.

8447. But you said there was seldom anything to get at settling?- There was very seldom any cash that I had to take, because they were lean fishings.

8448. And because you had got supplies up to the value of your fish?-No; but I did not ask for any supplies beyond what I required for the fishing, and perhaps a little meal for my family, which they could not do without.

8449. But the price of that was generally as much you had to get at settlement?-It was.

8450. Was it ever more?-Not very often.

8451. Did you ever think of changing from one employer to another?-No, I did not think of that, because I did not see any good it could do me.

8452. Do you think you would not have got a better price?-No.

8453. And you would not have got better supplies from another merchant?-The only merchant I ever dealt with was Mr. Inkster, because his shop is nearest to me, and I always found his goods as cheap as any other man's.

8454. Would it not have been far more convenient for you to have got all your goods from Mr. Inkster's, instead of carrying them from Hillswick?-Yes; but with regard to lines and hooks, and such things as we require for the fishing, we could not get them from Mr. Inkster, because we were bound to go for them to the man that we fished for.

8455. How long is it since you gave up fishing?-About eight years ago.

8456. You continued to go to the merchant for whom you fished until that time?-Yes.

8457. Did you never think of fishing for Mr. Inkster?-No, because the men I fished with in the boat wanted to go to Mr. Anderson, and I did not want to make discord in the boat's crew.

8458. Have you heard the evidence of the other witnesses from Muckle Roe, Gideon Williamson and John Wood?-Yes.

8459. Is there anything additional that you want to say?-No.

8460. Do you think the fishermen are generally quite free to engage to fish to any employer they like?-They are quite right to engage to any man that would give the best bargain and the best agreement, and that is the thing they should do.

8461. But they would just get as good a bargain from one merchant as from another?-Yes, equally the same because it appears that one fish merchant won't pay more for his fish than another does.

8462. So that the fishermen would have no advantage in changing?-No.

8463. They cannot better themselves by shifting?-They cannot.

8464. Has that been your experience since you have been a fisherman?-It has been my experience all my life, and many besides me have found the same thing.

8465. They would like to better to themselves, but they could not?-That is the very thing.

8466. Do you think they would be better by curing their own fish?-They have no chance of curing their own fish, because those who do so have to find booths for them until the crafts come to take away the cured fish. Besides, poor men like fishermen cannot do that.

8467. They have to buy salt for the curing, and that costs a lot of money?-Yes.

8468. So that they are obliged to give their fish green to the merchant?-Yes.

8469. Have you ever known men to make any attempt to cure fish for themselves?-I have.