Chapter IV: Front Matter (4)

VON NEURATH: In that case I must regret to say that you are lying. For I—I must know. After all, I must know whether I talked to the Führer. I delivered a verbal report to him in person and Frank was not present.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, just let us look at the report, at your report. Your Lordship will find it on Page 7.

We will see whether it is true or not.

THE PRESIDENT: Page what?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Page 7, My Lord. It is Document D-739 of the same book, 12a; it is Exhibit G-521.

Now, this is a memorandum, a secret memorandum of the representative of the Foreign Office in the Office of the Reich Protector, of the 5th of October.

[_Turning to the defendant._] You will remember your letter was the 31st of August. It says:

“Regarding the reception of the Reich Protector and State
Secretary Frank by the Führer, I have learned the following from
authentic sources:

“To begin with, the Minister of Justice, Gürtner, gave a report
on the Czech resistance movement, during the course of which he
maintained that the first trial of the four chief ringleaders
would shortly take place before the Peoples’ Court.

“The Führer objected to this procedure and declared that
execution squads were good enough for Czech insurgents and
rebels. It was a mistake to create martyrs through legal
sentences, as was proved in the case of Andreas Hofer and
Schlageter. The Czechs would regard any sentence as an
injustice. As this matter had already entered the path of legal
procedure it was to be continued with in this form. The trials
were to be postponed until after the war, and then amidst the
din of the victory celebrations, the proceedings would pass
unnoticed. Only death sentences could be pronounced, but would
be commuted later on to life imprisonment or deportation.

“Regarding the question of the future of the Protectorate, the
Führer touched on the following three possibilities:

“1. Continuation of Czech autonomy in which the Germans would
live in the Protectorate as co-citizens with equal rights. This
possibility was, however, out of the question as one had always
to reckon with Czech intrigues.

“2. The deportation of the Czechs and the Germanization of the
Bohemian and Moravian area by German settlers. This possibility
was out of the question too, as it would take 100 years.

“3. The Germanization of the Bohemian and Moravian area by
Germanizing the Czechs, that is, by their assimilation. The
latter would be possible with the greater part of the Czech
people. Those Czechs against whom there were racial objections
or who were anti-German were to be excepted from this
assimilation. This category was to be weeded out.

“The Führer decided in favor of the third possibility; he gave
orders via Reich Minister Lammers, to put a stop to the
multitude of plans regarding partition of the Protectorate. The
Führer further decided that, in the interests of a uniform
policy with regard to the Czechs, a central Reich authority for
the whole of the Bohemian and Moravian area should remain at
Prague.

“The present status of the Protectorate thus continues.”

And look at the last sentence:

“The Führer’s decision followed the lines of the memoranda
submitted by the Protector and State Secretary Frank.”

Now, Defendant, although you answered me so sharply a moment ago, that document says that after the reception of the Reich Protector and the State Secretary, the representative of the Foreign Office in your office says that the decision of the Führer followed the lines of the memoranda put forward by you and your State Secretary Frank. Why do you say that I am wrong in saying it is untrue that a different line was followed by the Führer? It is set out in that document.

VON NEURATH: To that I have the following reply to give: First of all, the document shows that the Führer touched upon the following three eventualities with reference to the question of the future of the Protectorate. They are the three possibilities which I said yesterday I had proposed. The document also shows, though not directly, that the cause for this Führer conference was primarily quite a different one than merely deciding the question of the Protectorate. On the contrary, the Minister of Justice was present and a legal question in regard to the treatment of the members of the resistance movement was the cause for the discussion and Frank came to Berlin for this reason. I had been to Berlin before that and I talked to the Führer, not about the memorandum, which I had in my hand, but about my misgivings in general and the future of our policy in the Protectorate. My report included those proposals which are mentioned here under 1, 2, and 3.

It says there at the end, “The decision followed the lines of the memoranda submitted by the Protector and State Secretary Frank.” That remark was added by Herr Ziemke or whoever had written the document, but what I said yesterday about the policy is correct. And even if I admit that at that time in the letter to Lammers I did identify myself with these enclosures it was nevertheless dropped.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, I want to remind you that in the passage which I referred to last in your memorandum, as opposed to that of Frank, you were putting forward the organization of the Greater German Reich. I take it in this way, that you envisaged yourself that in the event of a German victory in the war the Czech part of Czechoslovakia would remain part of a Greater German Reich.

VON NEURATH: No, I beg your pardon. It had already been incorporated and here it is also expressly stated that it should remain in that condition, as a protectorate but as a special structure.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, I just—are you saying that your policy, after this period—this was in the autumn of 1940—that your policy towards the Czechs was sympathetic?

VON NEURATH: I do not think it changed except when there were strong resistance movements there.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, why was it that you forbade, in the middle of 1941, any reference of the handling—to the discussion of the handling and treatment of all questions about the German-Czech problem? Why did you forbid its discussion?

VON NEURATH: To prevent these problems which were the cause of this memorandum from arising again and again, namely the problem of individual parts of the Protectorate being torn away and added to the lower Danube or the Sudeten country with a general resettlement. That was the purpose of my report to the Führer, as I explained yesterday, so as to put a stop to that discussion once and for all.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But you also—you particularly prohibited, did you not, any public statements addressed to the Czech population? Well, let us look at the document.

It is Document Number 3862-PS, My Lord. Your Lordship will find it at Page 126 of Document Book 12a. My Lord, it becomes Exhibit GB-522.

[_Turning to the defendant._] It is for distribution through your various offices and you say:

“For the motive stated I order that in the future, when
arrangements and publications of any kind concerning the
German-Czech problem are made, the views of the whole population
are more than ever to be directed to the war and its
requirements while the duty of the Czech nation to carry out the
war tasks imposed on it jointly with the Greater German Reich is
to be stressed.

“Other questions concerning the German-Czech problem are not
suitable subjects for public discussion at the present time. I
wish to point out that, without detriment to my orders,
administrative handling and treatment of all questions about the
German-Czech problem are to be in no way alluded to.”

Then the last paragraph:

“Requisite public statements about the political questions of
the Protectorate and in particular those addressed to the Czech
population are my business and mine alone and will be published
in due time.”

Why did you want to prohibit so severely the addressing of any public statements to the Czech population?

VON NEURATH: That is addressed not only to the Czech population, but especially to the Germans, and just for this reason—that was some special event which I no longer remember—it says here “for the motive stated I order that”—when there was again a discussion about the future of the Protectorate or something was published. That was the reason and I pointed out that that is why it was forbidden.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, I suggest to you about the—your proposals and Frank’s speak for themselves. I want you to help me on one other matter.

Do you remember after the closing of the universities that the question arose, what was to happen to the students? There were about 18,000 students who were, of course, out of work because they could not...

VON NEURATH: I beg your pardon, I beg your pardon. There were not so many; there were at the most 1,800 in all.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, you got it—with the greatest respect either you are wrong or your office. According to the note from Group X of your office:

“According to the data at my disposal the number of students
affected by the closure”—I should think that would include high
schools as well—“for 3 years of the Czech universities is
18,998.

“According to the press communications, dated the 21st of this
month only 1,200 persons were arrested in connection with the
events of the 15th of this month.”

And then your office goes on to say by a process of subtraction that leaves 17,800. You were faced with their occupation.

My Lord, it is Page 104, Document 3858-PS. Exhibit GB-523.

VON NEURATH: I do not want to deny my official’s statement. He must have known better than I. I am merely surprised that there should have been 18,000 students in two Czech universities, in a country with a population of 7 millions.

THE PRESIDENT: Hadn’t you better check that by the original?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I shall. I am much obliged to Your Lordship. Well, My Lord, it is quite clear that both figures—they are in figures, and they are 18,998, and then there is the check below, and you have to take off 1,200; that leaves 17,800. My Lord, if it were only 1,800, the second figure could not arise.

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, somewhere there must be an error. That would have been more for two universities in Czechoslovakia than there were in Berlin at the best of times. There was a maximum of 8,000 to 9,000 in Berlin per year and in the case of a nation of only 7 millions there are supposed to be 18,000 students in two universities. This cannot be right.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, it may be that there are three age groups. Your Lordship sees that it is “according to the data at my disposal, the number of students affected by the closure for 3 years of the Czech universities is 18,000.” It may be that is the intake for 2 years, in addition to present students.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Anyhow, this is the figure; and it is this problem which has been dealt with by your Ministry. It may be that it includes certain high schools, but at any rate, these are your Ministry’s documents, and I want to know what happened. This was the minutes, as I understand it, from Dennler, Dr. Dennler, who was the head of Group X of your office, to Burgsdorff, who had a superior position; and, if I may summarize it, this letter of 21 November 1939 suggests that the students should be taken forcibly from Czechoslovakia to the old Reich and put to work in the old Reich; and then, the next—on 25 November, you will notice that in Paragraph 2 it says—the writer, who is Burgsdorff, is saying that he is dealing with X 119/39, which is Dennler’s memorandum; and Burgsdorff says that he does not want them to go into the Reich because at that time there was some unemployment in the Reich, and suggests that they should be dealt with by compulsory labor on the roads and canals in Czechoslovakia. Now, these were the two proposals from your office.

My Lord, the second one is Document 3857-PS, which will be Exhibit GB-524.

[_Turning to the defendant._] What happened to the unfortunate students?

VON NEURATH: Nothing at all happened to them.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, did either of these proposals of Dr. Dennler for forced labor in the Reich and of Burgsdorff for forced labor in Czechoslovakia, did they come up to you?

VON NEURATH: No, none of them.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did they come to you for decision? Did they come to you for decision?

VON NEURATH: I think they were submitted to me, but I cannot tell you for certain.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, will you agree with me, or perhaps you will be able to correct my knowledge, that this is the earliest suggestion—you said it was not put into effect—but the earliest suggestion of forced labor came from an officer of your department? Do you know of any other department of the Reich that had suggested forced labor as early as November 1939?

VON NEURATH: There is no connection, and, moreover, if you were to look through suggestions made by all your subordinates, then you, too, might find some proposal which you afterward rejected. Suggestions made by an adviser do not mean anything at all.

Apart from that, perhaps I can clear up this figure of 18,000. Here it says, “According to the data at my disposal, the number of students who will be affected by closing the Czech universities for 3 years will be 18,000.” It is, therefore, three times 6,000, is it not? Which is approximately 18,000.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I had already put forward that suggestion, Defendant, about 10 minutes ago, but I respectfully agree with you. That is one matter in which we are not in difference.

Well now, you understand what I am suggesting. It is that these proposals germinated in your office, because they were quite in keeping with the proposals in the memoranda which I have just read to the Tribunal, that you should not only get rid of Czech higher education, but you should have forced labor. Do you remember that was in the State Secretary’s memorandum? What I am suggesting is that it was in your department—the idea of forced labor—as early as 21 November 1939.

Now, Defendant, I have only one other matter, and I hope, as it is a question of fact, that perhaps you will be able to agree with me on reflection. You suggested this morning that the German university in Prague was closed down after the founding of Czechoslovakia in 1919. That is how it came to us. On reflection, do you not know that it continued and that many thousands of students graduated in the German university of Prague between 1919 and 1939?

VON NEURATH: As far as I know, it was a department of the Czech university, a German part of the Czech university, as far as I know.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But it continued—it continued as a university?

VON NEURATH: Yes, it continued, but as a Czech university.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, but German students came there and could take their degrees in German? It was a permitted language? I suggest to you that there are thousands of people who went there from Austria and from the old Reich—went there as Germans and took their degrees in German.

VON NEURATH: Yes, only the old German university, the so-called Charles University, was closed by the Czechs. But a German department, or whatever one might call it, still remained. The Germans studied and took their examinations there.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I think the point is clear. I am not going to argue about the actual thing, but that there was a German university, where German students could study, you will agree.

THE PRESIDENT: Do the Prosecution wish to cross-examine further?

STATE COUNSELLOR OF JUSTICE M. Y. RAGINSKY (Assistant Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): Defendant, tell us please, when you were Minister of Foreign Affairs did Ribbentrop try to intervene in the foreign affairs of Germany?

VON NEURATH: Is that a question?

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, that is a question.

VON NEURATH: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Would you please tell us in what form this intervention took place?

VON NEURATH: By communicating to the Führer his own ideas on foreign policy, without giving them to me for consideration.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: All right. Yesterday you stated here that in 1936 you had differences of opinion with Hitler and that on 27 of July 1936 you asked to be relieved of your duties as a Minister. This document was cited here yesterday, but did you not write to Hitler then?—and I will read the last sentence of your letter to him:

“Even if I am no longer Minister, I shall be constantly at your
disposal, if you so desire, with my advice and my years of
experience in the field of foreign policy.”

Did you write these words in your letter to the Führer?

VON NEURATH: Yes indeed; yes indeed.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: And did you fulfill the promises you made to Hitler? Whenever it was necessary to cover by diplomatic manipulations the aggressive actions of Hitler, as for instance at the time of the annexation of the Sudetenland, during the invasion of Czechoslovakia, and so on? Did you help Hitler with your experience? Is that right?

VON NEURATH: That is a great mistake. On the contrary, as I have stated here yesterday and today, I was called in by Hitler only once; and that was on the last phase of the Austrian Anschluss. With that my activities came to an end, but in 1938, to be sure, I went to see him of my own accord, to restrain him from starting the war. That was my activity.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: We have already heard this. I would like to ask you another question concerning the memorandum of Friderici without repeating what has already been said here concerning it. You remember this memorandum well, as it was just presented to the Court a short time ago. In the last part of the memorandum of Friderici—it is the last paragraph but one—it is stated:

“If the governing of the Protectorate were in reliable hands and
guided exclusively by the order of the Führer of the 16th of
March 1939, the territory of Bohemia and Moravia would become an
integral part of Germany.”

It was for this purpose that Hitler chose you to be Protector; is that not so?

VON NEURATH: Not a bit; that was not the reason at all. The reason was—I have described it in detail yesterday.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: All right. We shall not repeat the reasons; we spoke about them yesterday.

Well, you deny that you were precisely the man who was supposed to carry through the invasion of Czechoslovakia?

VON NEURATH: To that I can only answer “no.”

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: All right. Do you admit that you were, in the Protectorate, the only representative of the Führer and of the Government of the Reich, and that you were directly subordinate to Hitler?

VON NEURATH: Yes, that is right; that is stated in Hitler’s decree.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, it is stated there. I will not read this decree, which would only delay the interrogation. This decree has already been presented to the Court.

Do you acknowledge that all administrative organs and authorities of the Reich in the Protectorate with the exception of the Armed Forces, were subordinate to you?

VON NEURATH: No. I am sorry to have to say that that is a mistake. That is also stated in the same decree of 1 September 1939. Apart from that, there were numerous other organizations, that is, Reich authorities, which were not under my jurisdiction; quite apart from the Police.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well, as far as the Police are concerned, we will speak about that separately. So you think it is a mistake that the decree does not mention it, or do you interpret the decree otherwise?

I shall read the first paragraph of the decree of 1 September 1939. It is stated there:

“All the authorities, offices and organizations of the Reich in
the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, with the exception of
the Armed Forces, are under the jurisdiction of the Reich
Protector.”

It is also stated in Paragraph 2:

“The Reich Protector supervises the entire autonomous
administration of the Protectorate.”

And Paragraph 3:

“The office of the Reich Protector is in charge of all
administrative branches of the Reich administration with the
exception of the Armed Forces.”

As you see, it is stated very bluntly and definitely here that all the institutions of the Reich were subordinate to you, while you were subordinate to Hitler.

VON NEURATH: I have to tell you again that as to administrative agencies, yes; but there were a number of other authorities, Reich authorities and offices which did not come under my jurisdiction, for instance, the Four Year Plan.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Now let us pass to the question of the Police. Yesterday, in answer to a question of your counsel, you stated to the Tribunal that as to this decree of 1 September, signed by Göring, Frick, and Lammers, Paragraph 13 was not comprehensible to you. Let us examine other paragraphs of the same chapter concerning the Police.

Paragraph 11 says:

“The organs of the German Security Police in the Protectorate of
Bohemia and Moravia have the task of investigating and combating
all hostile attempts toward the government and population in the
territory of the Protectorate, informing the Reich Protector as
well as the subordinate organizations, keeping them currently
informed on important events, and advising them as to what to
do.”

Paragraph 14 of the same decree states:

“The Reich Minister of the Interior (the Reichsführer SS, and
the Chief of the German Police), with the agreement of the Reich
Protector in Bohemia and Moravia releases the legal and
administrative directives necessary for carrying out this
order.”

Thus, according to this decree, the Police and the SS were obliged to let you know about all their measures and, moreover, all their administrative and legal acts and measures had been carried out with your knowledge. Do you acknowledge that?

VON NEURATH: No; that is not right. First of all, there was at one time an order that they were to inform me. But that was not carried out and was forbidden by Himmler directly. And the other, the second regulation to the effect that the administrative measures—or whatever it is called—could or should be carried out with my approval, was never applied.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: So you deny it?

VON NEURATH: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I now present to you the testimony of Karl Hermann Frank, of 7 March 1946, on this very question; that is, on the question of the Police and to whom they were subordinated.

Mr. President, I present this testimony as Exhibit Number USSR-494.

THE PRESIDENT: Is this in the English book as well, do you know?

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: No, Mr. President. This document that I am presenting now is an original, signed by Frank.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Karl Hermann Frank, during an interrogation, testified:

“According to the order on ‘The Structure of the German
Administration in the Protectorate and the German Security
Police,’ all German authorities and offices in the Protectorate
and thereby the entire Police, too, excepting the Armed Forces
are formally subordinated to the Reich Protector and are bound
by his directions. Owing to this the Security Police was bound
to carry out this basic political policy set forth by the Reich
Protector. Orders as to carrying out State Police measures were
mainly issued by the Chief of the Security Police with the Reich
Security Main Office in Berlin.

“If the Reich Protector wanted to carry out some State Police
measures, he had to have the permission of the Reich Security
Main Office in Berlin; that is, in this case the State Police
also submitted each order for reconfirmation to the Reich
Security Main Office in Berlin. The same applied also to
directives for the carrying out of State Police measures given
by the Higher SS and Police Leader to the Chief of the Security
Police.”

I would like to draw your attention to this paragraph that I am reading now:

“This system of channels for issuing directives remained in
force during the whole existence of the Protectorate and was
used as such by Von Neurath in the Protectorate. In general the
Reich Protector could, on his own initiative, issue directives
to the State Police through the Chief of the Security Police.
The carrying out of such directives was, however, subject to
approval by the Reich Security Main Office if State Police
measures were concerned.

“In regard to the SD (Security Service), which had no executive
powers, the authority of the Reich Protector respecting the
issuing of directives to the SD was greater and not subject to
the approval of the Reich Security Main Office in every case.”

Do you confirm this testimony of Frank?

VON NEURATH: No.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: All right.

VON NEURATH: I refer you to a statement by the same Frank, which I have learned about here, which was made last year, during which he said something quite different. He said that the entire Police were not under the Reich Protector, but came under the Chief of the Police in Berlin, namely, Himmler. It ought to be here somewhere—this statement.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Don’t worry about it; I will come back to this testimony.

Tell me, please, who was the political adviser in your service?

VON NEURATH: Political adviser?

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, political adviser.

VON NEURATH: In general I had various political advisers.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: In order not to waste time, I will show you a short document, and I ask you to read it.

On 21 July 1939 the Chief of the Security Police wrote a letter to your State Secretary and Higher SS and Police Leader, Karl Hermann Frank. The letter had the following contents:

“In an order of 5 May 1939 the Reich Protector of Bohemia and
Moravia appointed the SD Leader and Chief of the Security Police
as his political adviser. I have ascertained that this order has
not yet been published or carried out. Please provide for
carrying out this order.

“Signed, Dr. Best.”

Do you remember your order now?

VON NEURATH: I cannot remember that decree at the moment, but I do remember that this was never carried out, because I did not have this SD leader as my political adviser.

THE PRESIDENT: This would be a convenient time to break off.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, just one more minute, please, to finish this question, and then we can break off.

[_Turning to the defendant._] But did you issue such an order on 5 May?

VON NEURATH: I can no longer tell you about that at this date—but it is probably true. I do not want to deny it; I do not know any more.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: But you did issue this order?

All right. I thank you, Mr. President. It is possible to adjourn now. I shall require 30 minutes more.

[_The Tribunal adjourned until 26 June 1946, at 1000 hours._]

ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY-FOURTH DAY
Wednesday, 26 June 1946

_Morning Session_

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will not sit on Thursday, tomorrow afternoon, in open session, but will sit in closed session. That is to say, we will sit tomorrow, Thursday, from 10 till 1 in open session, and we will sit in the afternoon in closed session.

On Saturday morning, the Tribunal will sit in open session from 10 till 1.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, I am aware that yesterday when I submitted the Document USSR-494, the necessary copies of this document were not submitted to the Tribunal. I am very sorry about this, and I would ask you to accept the necessary copies now which I am going to submit.

[_The Defendant Von Neurath resumed the stand._]

Let us go back, Defendant, to your warning issued in August 1939. If I understood you correctly, you said here before the Tribunal that this warning was issued in connection with the military situation of the time; is that correct?

VON NEURATH: With reference to the military situation nothing had happened at that time; absolutely no political tension had become noticeable in the meantime; therefore, it was not directly in connection with the military situation. There was certainly nothing wrong yet at that time.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: That is regardless of the military situation, all right. Do you acknowledge that by this order of yours, or by this warning, you had introduced a system of hostages? Do you admit that?

VON NEURATH: I did not understand the question.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I am going to repeat the question. I am asking you, do you acknowledge that by means of this warning of August 1939—I am submitting this document as evidence under Document Number USSR-490—that by this order you were setting up a system of hostages? Do you admit that?

VON NEURATH: I did not understand.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Was it correctly translated to you just now?

VON NEURATH: Yes; the translation did not come through on the last question, or rather the last sentence. I did not understand the last sentence.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well, I will put it to you that you know the document well.

VON NEURATH: Yes; but I did not understand the last sentence of your question.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I shall try to say it in such a way that you will understand it now. In this order of yours, in the penultimate paragraph, it is stated, “The responsibility for all acts of sabotage will be borne not only by the individual perpetrators, but by the entire Czechoslovak population.” This means that not only guilty persons have to be punished, but there were punishments set up for innocent people too. With this order you inaugurated the mass terrorism against the Czech population.

VON NEURATH: Not at all. It only meant that the moral responsibility for any possible acts was to be laid to the account of the Czech people.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well, in Lidice, was this not applied in practice? Was it only a question of the moral responsibility there?

VON NEURATH: Yes, yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: In this order you state the following: “Those who do not take these necessities into account will be considered enemies of the Reich.” To the enemies of the Reich you applied only the principles of moral responsibility and nothing else?

VON NEURATH: Yes, if someone did not obey orders, then naturally he was punished.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: That is exactly what I am trying to determine and that is why I put this question to you, that just by this order of August 1939 you started the general terrorism of a massacre and punishment of innocent people.

VON NEURATH: Well, I do not know how you can draw this conclusion from this warning.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: We are going now to the deductions which we can make out of this. In the report of the Czechoslovak Government, submitted as evidence, Document USSR-60, which is a report on the final result of the investigation of the crimes committed by you and your collaborators, all this has been stated. And you just flatly deny all this documentary evidence. I am not going to argue with you regarding this document, but I am going to read into the record some of the testimony by the witnesses; and I would like you to reply whether you corroborate this evidence or whether you deny it. I am going to read into the record an excerpt from the testimony of the former Minister of Finance, Josef Kalfus, of 8 November 1945.

The Tribunal will find these excerpts on Page 12 of the English text, Document USSR-60.

Kalfus stated:

“The economic system introduced by Neurath and after him by the
later German regime, was nothing else than systematic, organized
robbery. As to the occupation of decisive positions in the Czech
industry and finance, it should be pointed out that, together
with Neurath, a vast economic machinery was installed, which
immediately occupied the chief positions in industry. The Skoda
Works, Brno Armament Works, steel works at Vitkovice, important
banks—Bohemian Discount Bank, Länder Bank, and Bohemian Union
Bank—were occupied as well.”

Do you corroborate this evidence?

VON NEURATH: I talked about this matter in great detail yesterday, and I refer you to my statement I made yesterday. I have nothing to add.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Thus, you do not corroborate this evidence?

VON NEURATH: Not in the least.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: The former, President of Bohemia, Richard Bienert, during the interrogation of 8 November 1945, stated—Mr. President, this excerpt is on Page 13 of the English text of the Document USSR-60:

“When we got to know him more closely, we noticed that he,
Neurath, was ruthless toward the Czechs. As the Landespräsident
of Bohemia I knew that it was Neurath who subjected the
political administration in Bohemia and Moravia to German
control, both the state administration and the local government
as well. I remember also that Neurath caused the abolition of
the local school counsellors, and the appointment of German
school inspectors in their place. Neurath ordered the
dissolution of the regional representative bodies; he caused
Czech workers to be sent to the Reich from April 1939 onward in
order to work for the war machine of the Reich. He ordered the
closing down of the Czech universities and of many Czech
secondary and elementary schools.

“He abolished the Czech sport clubs and associations, such as
Sokol and Orel, and ordered the confiscation of all the property
of these gymnastic organizations; he abolished ... the Czech
recreation homes and sanatoria for young workmen and students,
and ordered the confiscation of their property. The Gestapo
carried out the arrests, but on the order of the Reich Protector
... I myself was arrested on 1 September 1939, as well.”

Will you still deny this testimony?

VON NEURATH: No, no. About all the matters which are listed here, I spoke yesterday in great detail. I do not intend to repeat it all over again now. Moreover, it seems strange to me that Mr. Bienert of all people, who knew perfectly well what I had ordered and what my relations were to the Gestapo and so forth, that Mr. Bienert of all people should say things like that.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Very well. Let us look at some other testimony. The former Prime Minister of the so-called Protectorate, Dr. Krejci, during the interrogations on 8 November 1945, stated...

Mr. President, this excerpt can be found on Page 17 of the English text of the Document USSR-60. Krejci testified:

“I know that the gymnastic associations were disbanded and their
property confiscated at the order of the Reich Protector, and
their funds and equipment handed over to be used by German
associations such as SS, SA, Hitler Youth, and so on. On 1
September 1939, when Poland was attacked by the German Army,
arrests took place on a large scale, especially arrests of army
officers, intellectuals, and important political personalities.
The arrests were made by the Gestapo, but it could not be done
without the approval of the Reich Protector.”

I am reading into the record one more excerpt from the next page of the testimony:

“As far as the Jewish problem was concerned, the Government of
the Protectorate was forced by the Reich Protector into a
campaign against the Jews, and when this pressure had not the
desired result, the Germans—or the Reich Protector’s
office—started persecuting the Jews according to the German
laws. The result was that tens of thousands of Jews were
persecuted and lost their lives and property.”

Are you going to deny this testimony, too?

VON NEURATH: With reference to the order which you mentioned at the beginning, concerning the sport clubs, I have to tell you that that was a police measure which I had not ordered; and I go on to repeat, as I said yesterday, that the arrests at the beginning of the war were carried out by the Gestapo, by direct order from Berlin, without my even having heard about the matter. I did not learn about it until afterward. Finally, with reference to the Jewish problem which is mentioned in the end, the statement which is contained in the Indictment, I think, namely, that I had attempted to get the Government of Czechoslovakia to introduce anti-Jewish laws, is an incorrect statement. I, or rather my State Secretary, talked to Mr. Elias, as far as I know. I myself have never talked to him. I talked to Mr. Hacha only afterward on a later occasion, when there was an attempt to introduce racial laws with reference to the Czechs; Mr. Hacha objected to this and I told him he did not have to do this, as this was my responsibility.

The introduction of the anti-Jewish laws was carried out by a decree of mine, to be sure, because as early as the beginning of April 1939, I had received orders to introduce the anti-Jewish legislation in the Protectorate which was not incorporated in the Reich. I delayed this step until July by means of all sorts of inquiries in Berlin, so as to give time to the Jews to prepare themselves in some way or other. These are the actual facts.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Tell me, do you know Dr. Havelka?

VON NEURATH: I know Herr Havelka, yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: He knew exactly about your conversation with Hacha?

VON NEURATH: Well, how much he knew about that, I do not know. Herr Havelka came to see me once or twice. He was Transport Minister, I think.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, that is quite correct. He was the Minister of Transport, but before that, he was the head of the chancellery of Hacha’s office.

Havelka, during his interrogation on 9 November last year, gave the following testimony, which can be found on Pages 18 and 19 of the English text of Exhibit USSR-60—I am quoting an excerpt:

“He”—Neurath—“was not interested in the Czech nation and
interventions of Cabinet members and Dr. Hacha pressing Czech
demands were on the whole without any result.

“There were the following actions in particular:

“Arrests of Czechoslovak officers, intelligentsia, members of
the Czechoslovak Legion of the first World War, and politicians.
At the time of the attack on Poland by the German Army about six
to eight thousand persons were arrested. They were hostages. The
Germans themselves called them ‘held in protective custody.’ The
majority of those hostages were never interrogated, and all
steps taken at the office of the Reich Protector in favor of
these unfortunate men remained without any result.

“Neurath, as the only representative of the Reich Government in
the territory of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, was
responsible for the execution of nine students on 17 November
1939. The execution was carried out soon after...”

THE PRESIDENT: General Raginsky, would it not be better and perhaps fairer to the defendant to ask him one question at a time? You are reading long passages of these documents which contain many questions. Perhaps you could take these two paragraphs you read now about the arrest of officers and ask him whether he says those are true or untrue, and then go on to the other paragraphs you want. It is very difficult for him to answer a great number of questions at one time.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, he has these documents before him and he is acquainted with the testimonies in question, but I will take into consideration what you have just told me. I will speak about the shooting of the students separately.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Do you corroborate this part of the evidence which I have just read into the record regarding the hostages?

VON NEURATH: About the arrest of the members of the so-called Vlayka, at the beginning of September 1939, I have spoken earlier, and I spoke in detail about that yesterday.

I said that these arrests—I am repeating it once more—were carried out by the Gestapo without my knowledge. Herr Havelka’s statement, that no steps had been taken in the interest of these people, is untrue. He ought to know that I continuously fought for these people and that a large number of them were released through my efforts.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Very well, let us go over to another question. Here, before this Tribunal, a certain document has already been introduced several times under Document Number USSR-223. This is the diary of Frank.

Mr. President, I am not referring to Karl Hermann Frank, who was sentenced to die for his crimes, but it is the Defendant Frank that I am speaking about. This excerpt has already been quoted here, but I should like to put a question to the defendant about it. I shall read it into the record. During an interview with a correspondent of the _Völkischer Beobachter_ in 1942, the Defendant Frank stated as follows:

“In Prague, for instance, some red placards were put out saying
that seven Czechs were being shot that day. Then I told myself
if I had to issue an order for such placards to be put up
regarding every seven Poles who were shot, then there would not
be enough timber in Poland to manufacture enough paper for such
placards.”

Please tell me if it is true that such red placards were put up in Prague?

VON NEURATH: I mentioned that yesterday. I have already said yesterday that this was the poster where my signature was misused, and that I had not seen it in advance. That is that red poster.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well, if you have not seen these posters, will you please look at them. We are going to show it to you right now.

VON NEURATH: Yes, I know it very well.

THE PRESIDENT: General Raginsky, he did not say he had not seen it. He said it was put up without his knowledge.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, I am going to come back to this, but I should like to establish that these were the red posters which were mentioned by Frank in his diary, and I should like to submit this poster under Document Number USSR-489.

I should like to read it into the record; it is very short and it will not take much time. The text is as follows:

“In spite of repeated serious warnings, a number of Czech
intellectuals, in collaboration with _émigré_ circles abroad,
are trying to disturb peace and order in the Protectorate of
Bohemia and Moravia by committing major or minor acts of
resistance. In this connection it was possible to prove that the
ringleaders of these resistance acts are especially to be found
in the Czech universities. Since on 28 October and 15 November
these elements gave way to acts of physical violence against
individual Germans, the Czech universities have been closed for
the duration of 3 years, nine of the perpetrators have been
shot, and a considerable number of the participants have been
arrested.

“Signed, The Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia, Freiherr
von Neurath, Prague, 17 November 1939.”

You state here that you never signed this warning? Have I understood you rightly?

VON NEURATH: Yes, indeed. I have already explained yesterday or the day before how this came about, namely, in my absence.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well, you should not repeat what you have already stated.

I am going to read into the record a certain statement by Karl Hermann Frank of 26 November 1945, connected with the subject. It can be found on Pages 46 and 47 of the Russian text. The English text will be submitted. Karl Hermann Frank, giving evidence regarding this poster, the text of which I have just read into the record, stated:

“This document was dated 17 November 1939 and was signed by Von
Neurath who did not object either to the shooting of the nine
students...”

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, may I draw your attention to something connected with this document. The document is neither dated nor is it signed, at least not the copy I have. It does not make it at all clear from whom the document originates, and I should like to take this opportunity to protest against the reading of this document.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Von Lüdinghausen, is there not a certificate about the document?

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: Not in my copy.

THE PRESIDENT: Well...

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, will you permit me to explain this misunderstanding. Dr. Von Lüdinghausen has the full text of the Document USSR-60. The English text was also submitted to the Tribunal. This document was quoted yesterday by Dr. Lüdinghausen. There is a certificate regarding the authenticity of this document signed by the plenipotentiary of the Czechoslovak Government, and there is the date, too.

Now, just to facilitate the proceedings, we have submitted another copy of Frank’s testimony to Dr. Lüdinghausen, and it would be very easy to determine that there is a certificate regarding the authenticity of this statement which is dated 17 November...

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: I should like to say the following about this point: When I received this long indictment from Colonel Ecer of the Czech Delegation, the document did not have any additions or appendices, except texts of laws. I therefore endeavored to obtain these additions because reference had been made to them. I then received only one annex to an appendix, or supplement “Number 2”; the others I received in the same condition as the one which I have here.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Von Lüdinghausen, will you wait a minute? Will you kindly tell us what document it is you are referring to?

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: It is USSR-60.

THE PRESIDENT: USSR-60—well, that is the Czech report, is it not?

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: That is the Czech report, which is about this thick [_indicating_] in German; that is the one in question. Annexes have also been issued to this, and these annexes, I repeat, were not made available to me; that is, I made a personal effort to get them, but I received only one which is not identical with this document and which I received much later and in the same condition as that which I hold in my hand now, that is to say, without a heading, without a signature, and without a date, and most certainly without any certificate as to when, where, and by whom this supposed statement of Frank’s was taken down.

THE PRESIDENT: Let us hear what General Raginsky has got to say about it.

As I understand General Raginsky, he says there is a certificate identifying that document and what is being supplied to you is merely a copy, which may not have the date and may not have the certificate on it, but which is the same as the document which is certified.

Is that what you said, General Raginsky?

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Could you now show Dr. Von Lüdinghausen the certificate and the document which is certified?

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: This certificate can be found on Page 44 of the Russian text in the appendix to Document USSR-60 and it is signed for General Ecer by Colonel of the General Staff Corps, Novack. This certificate was submitted, in due course, by us to the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: Is it necessary to take up the time of the Tribunal about this particular document? It seems to me we are wasting a lot of time.

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: After all, it is important. Otherwise I cannot find out whether it is genuine. That is certainly my right.

THE PRESIDENT: I was asking General Raginsky whether he wanted to persist in the use of the document. Is it worth while? I do not know what the document is or what it says.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I consider that is not necessary, because this document has already been submitted to the Tribunal a few months ago and accepted by the Tribunal as evidence. I really do not understand the statements by Dr. Von Lüdinghausen.

THE PRESIDENT: Why do you not show Dr. Von Lüdinghausen that there is a certificate which applies to the document which you put in his hand?

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, certainly, Mr. President. I am holding in my hand the Russian text of the certificate. I am quoting the Russian text and I can present it to Dr. Von Lüdinghausen so that he can be convinced. The original document has been submitted to the Tribunal and is in the possession of the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, is there not a German translation of the certificate and does not the certificate identify the document? Is there a German translation of the certificate?

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Just at the moment I do not have it, but during the intermission I shall be glad to produce the original German document.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Von Lüdinghausen, the Tribunal is told that this document was put in before and the certificate of General Ecer was put in at the same time, certifying that this document is a part of the Czech report. In those circumstances, the Tribunal will allow the document to be used.

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, then I have another objection to the use of this document.

As is known, if any interrogation transcripts or affidavits from witnesses are presented, the Defense have the right to summon these witnesses for an interrogation. The former State Secretary Frank, who has made this statement, is, however, as is known, no longer among the living. Therefore, I also object for this reason to the use of this document.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Von Lüdinghausen, this document was offered and accepted in evidence during the lifetime of this man, K. H. Frank. That is one reason for accepting it.

The document is admissible under Article 21 of the Charter and was submitted under that article and there is no such rule as you have stated, that the Defense are entitled to cross-examine every person who makes an affidavit. It is a matter entirely within the discretion of the Tribunal and therefore that objection is rejected.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, I do not want to hold you any longer on this matter but I wanted to show that this was an unnecessary delay as Dr. Von Lüdinghausen used the document himself to introduce some extracts from the testimony of Frank in his document book.

Now I shall read into the record some statements made by Frank. This document, I repeat, is in connection with the warning dated 17 November 1939 which we just exhibited to this Tribunal, and signed by Von Neurath, who did not raise his voice either against the shooting of the nine students nor as to the number of students who were to be sent to concentration camps, and he did not really request any changes in this legislation.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Did you hear the testimony, Defendant?

VON NEURATH: Yes, I have read it.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Do you deny this?

VON NEURATH: But most definitely. There was no possibility whatever of my doing so because I was not in Prague and consequently I could neither have had any knowledge of it, nor could I have signed it or passed it on.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Very well. You still insist on stating that the Police never informed you regarding the arrests which were made and other police measures which were taken? Do you state that firmly?

VON NEURATH: I did not say that they never informed me, but that they always informed me afterward. My information always came from Czech sources.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Was not the state of affairs such that the Police regularly reported to you regarding the important events which took place?

VON NEURATH: Not at all. In particular I never learned anything about what they were planning, at least not until afterward—or if I had learned it from Czech sources and then made inquiries with the Police.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Very well. I am going to read an extract from the testimony of Karl Hermann Frank, dated 7 March 1946. This testimony was submitted by me to the Tribunal yesterday and it was partially read by me already. Will you give a copy of the testimony, USSR-494, to the defendant, please?

Frank states: