Chapter XI: Front Matter (11)

“At the beginning of 1942 I was a soldier in the eastern theater
of war. I saw the extensive preparations which had been made for
the occupation and administration of territories extending as
far as the Crimea. On the basis of my personal observations, I
came to the conclusion that the war against the Soviet Union had
been planned a long time before it broke out.”

Is that statement right?

FRITZSCHE: Yes, certainly.

GEN. RUDENKO: Well, then, I have no further questions to put to you regarding this matter.

I would like to recall to your memory two further documents connected with the carrying out of propaganda, in view of the preparation of war and the actual attack against the Soviet Union. I am referring to the minutes of a conference held by Hitler dated 16 July 1941.

This document, Mr. President, is Number L-221 and has already been submitted.

[_Turning to the defendant._] This document will be handed to you and I will quote one or two paragraphs on the first page. I quote:

“Now it is essential that we do not disclose our aims to the
whole world. There is also no need for that; the main thing is
that we ourselves know what we want. But on no account should we
render our task more difficult by making superfluous
declarations. Such declarations are superfluous for within the
reach of our power we can do everything, and what is beyond our
power we will not be able to do anyway.”

And further:

“What we tell the world about our motives for our actions must
be governed by tactical considerations. We must act here in
exactly the same way as we did in the case of Norway, Denmark,
Holland, and Belgium. In those cases, too, we did not say
anything about our aims, and we shall have the prudence to
adhere to this method in the future.”

Did you have any knowledge of such directives of Hitler?

FRITZSCHE: No, I did not know of any such directive, but the fact that such statements and directives have been submitted in this courtroom has made me realize, I have said, that some of the premises of our propaganda have no foundation.

GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. You also had no knowledge either of the instructions issued by the OKW and signed by the Defendant Jodl regarding the carrying out of propaganda in the “Case Barbarossa”?

FRITZSCHE: I cannot say that without seeing these documents; the Case Barbarossa as such meant nothing to me until this Trial.

GEN. RUDENKO: Mr. President, this is Document Number C-26 and has already been submitted to the Tribunal. I will deal with it only in connection with the matter of propaganda. It is Exhibit USSR-477 in your document book, Mr. President, Document C-26.

[_Turning to the defendant._] I will quote one excerpt, Defendant. These instructions say:

“Propaganda directed toward the dismemberment of the Soviet
Union into single states is not to be used for the time being.
In the various parts of the Soviet Union German propaganda must
use that language which is most spoken. But this should not be
done in such a way that the various propaganda texts might give
the impression that it is intended to dismember the Soviet Union
at an early date.”

Were you acquainted with these directives?

FRITZSCHE: I knew neither the document nor the contents of the directive which you have just read.

GEN. RUDENKO: Yes, but I hope you will not deny that this was the spirit in which the propaganda was carried on.

FRITZSCHE: No. As far as I could observe, the propaganda which was carried on in the Soviet Union had just the reverse tendency. It tried to educate the various nationalities, such as the Ukraine, White Russia, Baltic States, and so forth, for independence.

GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. I would like to ask you now: When did you meet the Defendant Rosenberg for the first time, and when did you get his information concerning the tasks of German propaganda in the East?

FRITZSCHE: I doubt whether before this Trial I ever spoke with Herr Rosenberg, but I do believe I met him socially. However, never in my life have I had an official conversation with him.

GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. You will be handed Document Number 1039-PS. This is Rosenberg’s report on the preparatory work concerning matters connected with the eastern countries. This document has already been submitted to the Defendant Rosenberg and he did not deny it, but confirmed it.

I would like you to turn to the second quotation which is marked. In order to shorten this cross-examination, I will not read the whole quotation. This report states:

“Apart from these negotiations”—about which we spoke before—“I
received the responsible representatives of the entire
propaganda organization, namely Ministerial Director Fritzsche,
Minister Schmidt, Reich Superintendent of Broadcasting
Glasmeier, Dr. Grothe for the OKW, and others. Without going
into details as to political objectives, I instructed the
above-mentioned persons in confidence about the necessary
attitude, with the request to tone down the whole terminology of
the press on uniform lines, without issuing any statements.

“The schemes for dealing substantially with questions concerning
the eastern countries, which were prepared a long time ago, have
now been issued by my office and I have passed them on to the
propaganda representatives.”

Did Defendant Rosenberg correctly describe these events which occurred in 1941, before the attack against the Soviet Union?

FRITZSCHE: No. I do not recall ever having been received by Rosenberg. In any case I never received before 22 June, from Rosenberg or from any of his colleagues, any report about the planned attack on the Soviet Union.

On the other hand, and this perhaps may clarify matters, I do recall that a colleague of Rosenberg’s frequently came to see me or my colleagues. I even recall his name; he was chief of a press group, Major Kranz, formerly an editor of the _Völkischer Beobachter_. This man frequently came to see me and my colleagues and transmitted certain wishes of Rosenberg’s pertaining to press propaganda. But in any case this was not before 22 June.

GEN. RUDENKO: This means that as far as you are concerned what Rosenberg writes in his report is not true?

FRITZSCHE: Untrue would be saying too much. It may be that this information of which he talks refers to a later period of time. I cannot judge that, as I have not read the entire document. It may also be that Rosenberg, in this report, was not quite accurate when he mentions the reception of the responsible representatives of the entire propaganda organization.

GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. In this connection I would like to put two questions to you. First of all, I would like to refer to the written testimony of Hans Voss, which is Document USSR-471, and which you already have. It is Excerpt Number 3 of Document USSR-471. Have you found it?

FRITZSCHE: Yes, I have found it.

GEN. RUDENKO: I quote:

“After the defeat of the German troops at Stalingrad and after
the start of the general Soviet offensive on the whole Eastern
Front, Goebbels and Fritzsche took great pains to shape German
propaganda in such a way as to help Hitler very effectively in
mastering the situation at the front. This propaganda was based
on the hope that the Germans would succeed in holding out for a
long time. There was an attempt to frighten the German
population by disseminating calumnious reports of the brutal
acts of the Russian soldiers and the intention of the Soviet
Union to annihilate the German nation.

“In the last stage of the war the propaganda conducted by
Goebbels and Fritzsche made one last attempt to serve Hitler and
to organize resistance to Soviet troops.”

Is that correct?

FRITZSCHE: It is not only incorrect, it is nonsense.

GEN. RUDENKO: You frequently used such terminology. Obviously it is a sign of a professional practice. All right, I do not intend to enter into polemics with you.

I would like you to take a look at your testimony of 12 September 1945. It is the third excerpt of the Document USSR-474. Have you found that passage? I will quote your explanations concerning this question.

FRITZSCHE: All of them are not my statements. What passage are you referring to, sir?

GEN. RUDENKO: I mean marked Excerpt Number 3, which begins with the words, “The military aggression against the Soviet Union.”

FRITZSCHE: Yes.

GEN. RUDENKO: Please pay attention:

“Since we had a treaty with the Soviet Union the military attack
on the Soviet Union was prepared by Germany in secret.
Therefore, during the period of preparation for war against the
Soviet Union, no propaganda was carried on. Accordingly, the
German propaganda authorities did not begin active anti-Soviet
propaganda until after the war started on the Eastern Front.

“It must be added that the main task to which Goebbels set the
whole propaganda machinery was to justify Germany’s expansionist
policy toward the Soviet Union.

“From this point of view, as chief of the German press and
radio, I organized a vast campaign of anti-Soviet propaganda,
attempting to convince the public at large that the Soviet Union
and not Germany was the guilty party in this war. I must,
however, state that we had no documentary basis for accusing the
Soviet Union of preparing an armed attack on Germany.

“In my radio talks I tried especially to instill fear of the
horrors of Bolshevism in the hearts of the peoples of Europe and
the German population. Thus I asserted that only Fascist Germany
was the protective barrier for the European countries against
Anglo-American ‘plutocracy’ and ‘Red imperialism.’”

Do you admit this?

FRITZSCHE: Here again actual statements made by me have been distorted. If I may, I want to give you the factual basis briefly for the various points.

It is correct to say that I stated in Moscow that the war against the Soviet Union had not been prepared for by propaganda, because this war came very suddenly and as a surprise. Furthermore, it is correct to say that after the attack on the Soviet Union it was the main task of German propaganda to justify the necessity of this attack; therefore we had to emphasize again and again that we had merely forestalled a Soviet attack. Further, it is correct that I said that the next task for propaganda was to show that not Germany but Russia was guilty of this war, which amounts to practically the same thing. Unfortunately the most important argument which I quoted is omitted from this record, namely, that I and with me millions of Germans believed the official communiqués given out by the German Government because it would have seemed to us nonsensical and crazy if in the middle of a war which had not yet been decided in the West, we wantonly and willfully risked another war in the East.

I continue. It is also correct that the evidence given in the _White Book_ published by the Foreign Office at the time was rather meager and it is furthermore correct to say that German propaganda wanted to make Europe afraid of Bolshevism. It is finally correct that German propaganda again and again emphasized the fact that Germany was the only bulwark against the Soviet world revolution.

GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. I would now like to draw your attention to Excerpt Number 4 of the same document, which is in your possession, in connection with propaganda to keep alive the spirit of resistance in the German people, notwithstanding all evidence of Germany’s obvious defeat. I would like to read this very short Excerpt Number 4 from the same document Number USSR-474. I quote:

“Beginning in 1943 I tried my best to assert through German
radio propaganda that Germany was in possession of weapons which
would shake the power of our enemies. For this I used invented
data regarding the output of the German war industry which had
been given me by the Reich Minister for Munitions, Speer.”

Is that right?

FRITZSCHE: One part is wrong and the other part that is correct has been wrongly stated.

To begin with the latter part: It is correct that I received figures from the Ministry for Armaments and War Production which gave me great hopes for progress. I received, for instance, figures dealing with monthly aircraft production, figures dealing with new and especially effective fighter planes. In the meantime, through direct questioning of Speer himself, I have ascertained that the figures which I received were quite correct at the time and that the airplanes either were used wrongly, as, for instance, in the Ardennes offensive instead of for the protection of the home country, or that they could not be used because of the gasoline shortage. The first half however...

GEN. RUDENKO: You are going too much into details, Defendant Fritzsche. You are going into a lot of details which have already been dealt with here and which have nothing to do with you.

I would like to submit to you the testimony of Speer, who was interrogated by the Soviet prosecutor here in Nuremberg on 14 November 1945. I submit this document as USSR-492. I would like to read into the record only that part of the document which deals with the carrying out of propaganda during this particular period. I quote:

“In September 1944 I wrote a letter to Dr. Goebbels...In this
letter I warned Goebbels that it was wrong to keep on giving out
propaganda about new V-weapons, for in this way he would merely
arouse vain hopes in the German people. This was secret
propaganda which was carried out by Dr. Goebbels in order to
inspire in the German people the hope of a favorable outcome of
the war.”

Is that correct?

FRITZSCHE: Only partially. It is a fact that Dr. Goebbels, more than a year before the use of the first V-weapon, himself made propaganda with it. On the other hand, Speer in the meantime has stated in his testimony here that he now knows the actual source of the propaganda dealing with “miracle weapons,” namely Standartenführer Schwarz van Berk. Finally, Dr. Goebbels in the last months of 1944, likewise tried to stifle this “miracle weapon” propaganda which he himself had once instigated.

GEN. RUDENKO: Now, I would like to remind you of the part you played in this propaganda. You propagandized these new weapons to instill in the hearts of the German people the hope of a successful resistance.

I submit to you Document USSR-496. You already have it. It is your radio speech of 1 July 1944.

THE PRESIDENT: General, are you going to finish very soon or shall we adjourn now?

GEN. RUDENKO: I believe we should adjourn now, Mr. President, because I will still need about half an hour.

[_A recess was taken._]

GEN. RUDENKO: Well, Excerpt Number 6 from Document USSR-496 has been submitted to you. It is your speech, dated 1 July 1944. I am going to read it into the record:

“We Germans have been very reserved in our reports on the effect
of the new weapons. We could afford this reserve, knowing that
sometime or other Britain would break the silence with which she
tried at first to gloss over the effect of the V-1. We were
right about it. Reports from Britain during the last few days,
and especially today, prove that the effects of the first
thrusts with the new weapon are becoming all too obvious. It is
completely beside the point for the British to complain now
about the wave of hatred which is supposed to surge from Germany
against the British Isles. In the fifth year of the war it is
useless to talk about feelings, although much could be said
about this.”

Do you admit, Defendant Fritzsche, that by means of such propaganda you duped the German people and incited them to senseless resistance?

FRITZSCHE: On the contrary, in this case I spoke much more reservedly and much more modestly than, for instance, the German press did about the results of the V-1. For that matter the very next sentence following your quotation reads, “We can only repeat that for us the V-1 is the means with which we can break the enemy terror.”

GEN. RUDENKO: Now I should like to remind you, Defendant Fritzsche, of your testimony of 12 September 1945 with regard to the activity of the Werewolf organization. This document is Exhibit USSR-474, Excerpt Number 5. Have you found it?

FRITZSCHE: Yes, I have found it.

GEN. RUDENKO: I am going to read it:

“At the end of February 1945 the State Secretary in the German
Ministry of Propaganda, Dr. Naumann, sent on to me instructions
from Goebbels to work out a plan for the organization of a
secret broadcasting station. In reply to my question as to why
this broadcasting station was needed, Naumann explained that the
German Government had made the decision to transfer members of
the NSDAP to an illegal secret organization called ‘Werewolf.’
Naumann also revealed that all these illegal Werewolf groups
would be directed by means of this broadcasting station, which I
was to establish.”

As can be seen by your testimony you were opposed to the organization of this radio station and you spoke about it with Goebbels. In spite of this, the station was created, and the former chief of the Reich Propaganda Office, Schlesinger, was given the task of directing the broadcasts. Is that correct?

FRITZSCHE: No. Two things have been mixed up here. Firstly, the plan described in the paragraph which you have read for the creation of a Werewolf broadcasting station was a plan for a mobile station and that mobile station was not built. On the other hand—incidentally, it happened during my absence—on 1 April 1945, by direct order from Dr. Goebbels, the so-called “Old German Broadcasting Station” was opened as a Werewolf station.

GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. I do not want to argue with you about it and I should like to submit to you your own speech broadcast on 7 April 1945. It is the same Document USSR-496, Excerpt Number 7. Have you found it?

FRITZSCHE: Yes.

GEN. RUDENKO: At that time you broadcasted as follows:

“However, as a result of superiority in manpower and material
reserves, the enemy has now penetrated deep into German
territory, and at this moment is about to carry out his program
of extermination directed against us.”

I am skipping a few lines:

“Let no one be surprised if this desire of strong hearts to
avenge oppressed human beings does not even need a short respite
for temporary recovery, but leaps suddenly and unexpectedly into
flame and becomes active. Let no one be surprised if here and
there in unoccupied areas civilians take part in the fight or
even if, after the occupation has been carried out, the fight is
continued by civilians, that is to say, if without preparation
and without organization, there comes into being, springing from
the pure instinct of self-preservation, that phenomenon which we
call the ‘Werewolf.’”

Well, what can you tell us now?

FRITZSCHE: Although this quotation also has been torn from its context, I recognize it very well. Unfortunately the passage is missing in which I spoke of right and said, “Right is a sensitive concept which has its roots in tradition and ethical consciousness.” At present...

GEN. RUDENKO: Excuse me if I interrupt you, Defendant. I did not ask you for such detailed explanations. I just wanted to determine the fact that you not only explained what the organization was, but also did your utmost to foster the Werewolf organization.

Is that correct?

FRITZSCHE: That is absolutely incorrect. This is certainly not propaganda for the Werewolf; it is in apology for cases of Werewolf activity.

GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. Let us drop that subject. I should like to ask you, do you know who the head of the Werewolf organization was?

FRITZSCHE: That has already been stated here. At the very head of it was Bormann. Under him there was a Higher SS Leader whose name I tried in vain to remember during my interrogations in Moscow. I knew one of his associates, however, and that was Gunter d’Alquen.

GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. Before putting the last few questions to you, I should like to ask you, is it not a fact that Rosenberg and Streicher had great influence on German propaganda?

FRITZSCHE: Their influence was negligible. Streicher had no influence at all on official German propaganda and Rosenberg only to an extent which was not noticeable to me.

GEN. RUDENKO: All right. I still have a few questions to put to you. You told the High Tribunal that had you known Hitler’s decrees for the murdering of people you would never have followed Hitler. Did I understand you correctly?

FRITZSCHE: You have understood me perfectly correctly.

GEN. RUDENKO: Now, in other words, I understand you to say that you would have gone against Hitler?

FRITZSCHE: It is hard to say what I would have done. Of course, this is a question about which I have now thought a great deal.

GEN. RUDENKO: I should like to ask you, if, as you stated here to the High Tribunal, at the beginning of 1942 you received information that in one of the regions in the Ukraine, which was at the time occupied by the Germans, an extermination of the Jews and the Ukraine intelligentsia was being prepared, simply because they were Jews and members of the Ukrainian intelligentsia? Did you receive such information? Is that correct?

FRITZSCHE: That is correct.

GEN. RUDENKO: That was in the beginning. In May of 1942 you were with the 6th Army, and in the 6th Army you learned about the existence of an order to shoot the Soviet commissars; is that right?

FRITZSCHE: Yes.

GEN. RUDENKO: You considered that this bloody order should not be applied? Is that right?

FRITZSCHE: That is right.

GEN. RUDENKO: You knew that this order emanated from Hitler?

FRITZSCHE: Yes, I could imagine that.

GEN. RUDENKO: That is to say, in 1942 you knew already that Hitler’s order to murder existed and yet you followed him?

FRITZSCHE: You are comparing two things which are not comparable. There is quite a difference, not treating commissars as prisoners of war and giving an order for the killing of 5 million Jews.

GEN. RUDENKO: Then, if I understand you correctly, the fact that you did not go against Hitler, meant that you considered such an order to be permissible in the conduct of the war by the German Army?

FRITZSCHE: No; I considered it was an impossible order; and that is why I opposed it, and not only passively as others did.

GEN. RUDENKO: But you continued to support Hitler?

FRITZSCHE: Yes.

GEN. RUDENKO: Here is the last question. Tell me, during the war, did you ever concern yourself with the question of preparations for biological warfare?

FRITZSCHE: Never.

GEN. RUDENKO: Did you ever hear the name of a certain Major Von Passavant?

FRITZSCHE: Yes, I know that name.

GEN. RUDENKO: He was the representative of the OKW in the Ministry of Propaganda, was he not?

FRITZSCHE: No, he was not. He was a radio expert in the Propaganda Department of the OKW.

GEN. RUDENKO: A copy of a letter of 19 October 1944 will be submitted to you. This letter bears your facsimile signature, and it is directed to Major Von Passavant of the OKW. This is a short document, and I am going to read it to you:

“To the Chief of Broadcasting, Major Von Passavant, OKW:

“A listener, factory owner Gustav Otto, Reichenberg, has sent me
the enclosed sketch with the proposal to carry out biological
warfare. I am submitting this to you with the request that you
forward it to the proper office.

“Heil Hitler. Fritzsche.”

Do you remember this document?

FRITZSCHE: Of course I do not remember it. At the same time I want to state that I have no doubt that it is genuine.

GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. I should like to put the last question to you: This shows that you were in favor of the planning and the carrying through by Germany of biological warfare, is that correct?

I have finished, Mr. President.

FRITZSCHE: But I must have an opportunity to answer the last question. I wish to state that I was by no means in favor of biological warfare, but the situation was merely this: Every day piles of letters came in from listeners and these were passed on by one of the departments to the office competent to deal with the matter concerned and the accompanying letter, which consisted of two or three lines, was submitted to me for signature. As a rule I did not read the contents of the letters.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Fritz, do you want to re-examine?

DR. FRITZ: Herr Fritzsche, just now during General Rudenko’s cross-examination you were asked about the radio speech of 2 May 1940 in which you spoke about your journey to Norway. Can you tell me more exactly when you went on that trip?

FRITZSCHE: I am afraid I cannot tell you the date exactly, but if I am not mistaken it was at the end of April.

DR. FRITZ: The official report of the Norwegian Government on war damage after Norway’s occupation by the Germans was put to you. Here it is said that the fighting which had caused this damage could not have taken place until after you had already completed your journey. Is that true?

FRITZSCHE: That is quite possible, but I should like to say this: In the extract which the Russian prosecutor has read without quoting the beginning, I described precisely what I had seen in clearly stated places; Lillehammer and Godenthal are a few names which occur to me now. To compare these statements now with the statements made by the Norwegian Government regarding the total damage is nothing less than the attempt to measure a liquid with a yard measure or vice versa.

DR. FRITZ: I have one other question in this connection. Was this journey of yours carried out before the British landing in Norway or afterward?

FRITZSCHE: I myself had an opportunity to watch a fight with British troops. I think it was just south of a place called Ottar in the Buldrenthal.

DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, General Rudenko, during his cross-examination, submitted three interrogation records. One was from Voss, USSR-471, one from Schörner, USSR-472, and one from Stahel, USSR-473. In the meantime I have looked through these three records and I should like to ask the High Tribunal also to compare these three records. I have ascertained that in these three records, of the statements of three different persons, parts of the answers are repeated; and they tally, word for word. It says, for example...

THE PRESIDENT: You are not getting this from the witness; you are making an argument to us, and you must do that at some other time.

DR. FRITZ: I just wanted to make an application, Mr. President. If these three records are used for the findings, then I wish to make an application that at least one of these persons who were interrogated be brought here in person for the purpose of cross-examination.

THE PRESIDENT: Were you meaning that you should see, or that we should examine, the whole of those three affidavits, or were you meaning that you wanted one of the people who made the affidavits to come here in order to give evidence and be cross-examined? Which do you mean?

DR. FRITZ: The latter, Mr. President. I should merely like to request that all three be summoned.

FRITZSCHE: All three. I can only ask to have all three called.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider your application.

DR. FRITZ: Apart from this, Mr. President, I do not wish to carry out any further redirect examination.

THE PRESIDENT: There is one thing, Defendant. You referred to the Commissar Decree, or order, and you spoke of it as though it were an order not to treat commissars as prisoners of war. That was not the order, was it? The order was to kill them.

FRITZSCHE: The order which I got to know about in the 6th Army was an order saying that commissars who had been captured should be shot.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. That is a very different thing from not being treated as prisoners of war. The answer you gave was that you imagined the Commissar Order came from Hitler, but it is a very different thing, an order not to treat commissars as ordinary prisoners of war and to kill 5 million Jews. That was not a fair comparison at all, was it?

FRITZSCHE: In this case I must admit that my way of expressing myself with reference to these commissars was not correct.

THE PRESIDENT: There is one other thing I want to ask you. In October 1939 this untruthful statement about the _Athenia_ was published in a German newspaper. That is right, is it not?

FRITZSCHE: In October 1939? During the whole of September and October untruthful statements about the _Athenia_ were made in the German press as well as on the German radio.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. But on the 23d of October 1939 a particularly untruthful statement attributing the sinking of the _Athenia_ to Mr. Winston Churchill was made in a German newspaper. You told us about it.

FRITZSCHE: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: And you continued to broadcast referring to those alleged facts for some time, did you not?

FRITZSCHE: Of course, because at the time I was still under the impression that they were true and my...

THE PRESIDENT: That is what I wanted to ask you about. You had a naval liaison officer in your office?

FRITZSCHE: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: What inquiries did you make?

FRITZSCHE: This naval officer was not actually the liaison officer between us and the High Command of the Navy. He was censorship officer for the entire Armed Forces. Nevertheless I naturally called on his services in connection with naval matters. And several times I ordered him, or rather, requested him to find out from the High Command of the Navy how the investigation of the Athenia case stood. The answer was always the same: “The position still is that no German submarine was near the place of the catastrophe.”

THE PRESIDENT: And are you saying that that liaison officer of the Navy told you that after the 23d of October 1939?

FRITZSCHE: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Did he continue to tell you that?

FRITZSCHE: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: That is all. He may return to the dock.

Yes, Dr. Fritz?

DR. FRITZ: Now, with the permission of the Tribunal, I should like to call the witness Herr Von Schirmeister.

[_The witness Von Schirmeister took the stand._]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name, please?

MORITZ VON SCHIRMEISTER (Witness): Moritz von Schirmeister.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.

[_The witness repeated the oath._]

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

DR. FRITZ: Witness, before beginning your examination, I should like to ask you to make your answers quite general and as brief as possible.

Will you please give the Tribunal very briefly some particulars of your career, so that the Tribunal may know more about you.

VON SCHIRMEISTER: I come from a family of officers and civil servants; studied theology for three terms; 10 years as a banking official, 5 of them in South America; then editor until my appointment in Berlin; on 1 October 1931 I became a member of the Party; SS Hauptsturmführer in the Allgemeine SS; during the war four times a soldier; the last time from 31 July 1944 on; on 22 September 1944 prisoner of war in British hands; since then I have been in Great Britain.

DR. FRITZ: When I discussed the subject of your examination with you a few days ago, you told me that your former positive attitude toward National Socialism would not prevent you in any way from making truthful statements here, is that true?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: I have already told you that I believed in this cause, that I have sacrificed everything to it, that I have lost everything through it. It was very bitter for me. But today I know that I have served a bad cause. I have freed myself entirely of it. In my last camp in England I was permitted to assist in the re-education of my comrades. There I was allowed to edit the camp newspaper. And if I only could, then I would help today to rebuild a democratic Germany.

DR. FRITZ: When did you become acquainted with the Defendant Fritzsche?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: On 1 July 1938.

DR. FRITZ: What were you at the time? What position were you to occupy?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: I was an editor in Braunschweig and I was called to the Ministry of Propaganda in order to become Dr. Goebbels’ personal press expert.

DR. FRITZ: What position did you actually occupy in the Ministry of Propaganda?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Up to 1 July 1943 I was Dr. Goebbels’ personal press expert; then I was personal expert to State Secretary Dr. Gutterer until 1 April 1944; then I went with him for 3 months to the UFI which was the controlling company of all film companies. Then, on 31 July 1944, I went to the front.

DR. FRITZ: Did you have daily contact with Dr. Goebbels?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Yes, since the outbreak of the war. Let me describe briefly what my main activities were.

DR. FRITZ: Very briefly, please.

VON SCHIRMEISTER: During the war I had to look through all the news and propaganda material coming in from enemy broadcasting stations and regularly submit extracts from it to Goebbels. These extracts formed the basis for Dr. Goebbels’ propaganda instructions which he himself issued every morning. In the afternoon and evening I had to telephone them to the press section and radio section. So that during the war, except when my deputies took my place, I was with Dr. Goebbels in his apartment, I took my meals with him, slept in his house, accompanied him on journeys, and so on.

DR. FRITZ: What position did Fritzsche occupy at the time?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Herr Fritzsche in those days was the deputy chief in the department Home Press.

DR. FRITZ: Will you please describe the nature and importance of Fritzsche’s position in the Propaganda Ministry also during the period which followed. Very briefly, please.

VON SCHIRMEISTER: I was to get acquainted with the work of the department Home Press. Conditions there were as bad as they could be. The chief, Herr Berndt, adopted undisguised table-thumping tactics. He went about barking out commands and sacking editors en masse.

In ability and knowledge the officials in charge were inferior to the average editor. The only steadying influence was Herr Fritzsche; he was the only expert. He knew the needs and requirements of the press. On the one hand he had to mend the china which Herr Berndt was constantly smashing and on the other hand he tried to replace inefficient officials in the organization with better ones.

DR. FRITZ: Would it be correct to say, therefore, that Defendant Fritzsche was not appointed as an exponent of the Party, but as an expert?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Only as an expert. The extremist Party men in the Ministry did not give Fritzsche his full due. But as an expert he was then and later the good spirit of the press.

DR. FRITZ: Was Fritzsche one of those collaborators in the Ministry who had regular conferences with Goebbels?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: These regular conferences had not yet begun to be held in those days, and Fritzsche did not partake in them in any case.

DR. FRITZ: So that he was not consulted until he became a department chief?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Yes; only as far as such conferences were taking place, but actually only since the outbreak of war.

DR. FRITZ: In what way did Dr. Goebbels confer with his associates?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: After the war broke out there were daily conferences at 1100 hours, which were presided over by Dr. Goebbels personally and at which he gave all necessary propaganda instructions.

DR. FRITZ: How many people attended these 11 o’clock meetings?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: At the beginning, that is to say, up to the beginning of the Russian campaign, about 20 people. Later the circle grew to about 50 people.

DR. FRITZ: Were there discussions during these conferences or was it more or less the giving out of orders?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: There was no discussion during these conferences. First of all, the liaison officer from the OKW would give a survey of the military situation and then Dr. Goebbels would give his instructions regarding propaganda, mostly for the press, the radio, and the newsreels.

DR. FRITZ: Who presided over the conferences when Dr. Goebbels was not present?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Normally the State Secretary.

DR. FRITZ: And who presided when the State Secretary was not there either?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Usually Herr Fritzsche, sometimes also the head of the foreign press department or the foreign department, but mostly Herr Fritzsche.

DR. FRITZ: Did Fritzsche in these cases give the daily propaganda instructions on his own initiative or how was that done?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: No; if the Minister was not in Berlin, he was kept informed about news material coming in from abroad. He would then give the instructions to me or to one of my deputies in the same way as he did during the conferences. I had to pass on these instructions by telephone. In Berlin they were taken down by stenographers and then read out during the conference verbatim as instructions coming from the Minister. By the way, this must be seen by the minutes of the meetings. They were always called “Instructions from the Minister.”

DR. FRITZ: If Fritzsche used written instructions such as you have described, given by Dr. Goebbels, did he not try to clear up questions which Goebbels had not dealt with, by bringing them up for discussion?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: When Dr. Goebbels was farther away from Berlin, it might happen that the latest news did not reach him in time. In these cases Herr Fritzsche would bring things up for discussion, consider the pros and cons and then give instructions on his own initiative. That was then put down in writing; the Minister read it afterward and he either approved it or altered it.

DR. FRITZ: But then, surely apart from the big conferences with 30 or 50 people present at which Goebbels gave his instructions there must have been more confidential conferences as well.

VON SCHIRMEISTER: In the course of the morning, naturally, individual department chiefs also came for official discussions with the Minister.

DR. FRITZ: Was Fritzsche also called to these more confidential conferences?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Generally, no. The Minister used the conferences at which all departments were represented to summarize whatever he had to say for the press, radio, and newsreels. The heads of those departments whose special functions were not of interest to the others, came for individual conferences.

DR. FRITZ: How often was Herr Fritzsche consulted as compared with, say, the state secretaries—Hahnke, Gutterer, and Dr. Naumann?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: The state secretaries could always be present during these individual conferences and so could the personal advisers who were always there. Herr Fritzsche was very rarely present at these individual conferences.

DR. FRITZ: What was the position of the 12 department heads of the Ministry of Propaganda, one of whom was the Defendant Fritzsche?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: These department heads can be classified into experts on the one side, such as, for instance, the head of the budget department, Dr. Ott, and confirmed Party men on the other side as, for instance, Herr Berndt. Officially they had not a particle of the authority which was normally exercised by a department head in a ministry. It was generally known that the Minister was using them as tools and that when he did not need them any more he would throw them out. That did not apply to the department heads only. I remember the unworthy manner in which he threw out State Secretary Gutterer when he had enough of him.

DR. FRITZ: The Indictment accuses Fritzsche of having made of Germany’s news agencies, radio, and press an instrument that played an important part in the hands of the so-called conspirators in carrying out their plans. Was Fritzsche responsible for the organization of the press in the National Socialist State and what can you say to this charge?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: When Herr Fritzsche entered the Ministry, this press department had been set up and organized for some time. Moreover, I can also say that even Dr. Goebbels himself cannot be regarded as belonging to this circle of conspirators as defined by the Indictment; for, after all, he did not want to drive us into war, but always advocated the conquest of countries without bloodshed.

DR. FRITZ: So that the organization was already set up when Fritzsche took over the department German Press in the winter of 1938-39?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Yes, already completely organized.

DR. FRITZ: As the head of that department was Fritzsche independent? If not, who was his superior?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Unfortunately Fritzsche was not only subordinate as department chief to Dr. Goebbels, but he also stood between two fires. On the other side there was the Reich Press Chief, Dr. Dietrich, and the entire German press knew about this discord between the two. Although Reich Press Chief, as State Secretary, was a staff member of the Ministry of Propaganda, nevertheless he demanded the right to be able to give orders independently in his capacity of Reich Press Chief. If, therefore, the Minister and the Reich Press Chief did not agree on a certain point, then it was the unfortunate chief of the department German Press who bore the brunt of this.

DR. FRITZ: In what way was Fritzsche active in the press organization? Did he tighten the fetters or did he try to loosen them?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: I have already said that Herr Fritzsche was the only real expert of any caliber who worked in the press department. He knew the needs, the worries, and the requirements of the press. He knew that an editor could work only if you give him a certain amount of freedom, and thus always and at every opportunity he fought to have the fetters loosened. He did much more than was apparent to the outside world, for the Minister would make such and such a decision and the outside world would come to know only what the Minister wanted.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you think he has answered the question?

DR. FRITZ: Did Dr. Goebbels have any objections to the way the press worked? Was it not aggressive enough for him? Please be very brief.

VON SCHIRMEISTER: No, it was not aggressive and not obdurate enough for him.

DR. FRITZ: And how did Fritzsche react to such demands both with reference to individual journalists and with reference to the newspapers as a whole?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Again and again, at every opportunity, both during the conferences presided over by the Minister and at private meetings with the Minister, he spoke on behalf of the press and the journalists and tried to represent their point of view to the Minister.

DR. FRITZ: Can you mention a few names of journalists or papers whom Fritzsche tried to protect in the manner described?

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Fritz, why should he give the names of individual journalists and papers? Isn’t it too detailed to go into that?

DR. FRITZ: Very well; but Mr. President, may I, in that case, at least offer an affidavit in connection with this question as Document Number Fritzsche-5. It is in my Document Book Number 2 on Page 22. It comes from the editor of the _Frankfurter Zeitung_, Dr. Wendelin Hecht, and I should like to quote it very briefly:

“I herewith make the following affidavit for submission to the
International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg:

“1. It is true that the Defendant Hans Fritzsche also helped to
protect the _Frankfurter Zeitung_ for several years against a
ban by withholding copies of the _Frankfurter Zeitung_ from the
Führer’s headquarters.

“2. In the numerous attacks directed against the _Frankfurter
Zeitung_ because of its political attitude the Defendant Hans
Fritzsche repeatedly intervened in favor of the continued
publication of the _Frankfurter Zeitung_.

“Leutkirch, 6 March 1946. Dr. Wendelin Hecht.”

What other influential persons, apart from Dr. Goebbels, were there in the Ministry of Propaganda?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: After State Secretary Hahnke’s departure there was only one man in the Ministry of Propaganda who had any real influence on the Minister, only one man with whom Dr. Goebbels had some personal relations, and that was his first personal adviser, Dr. Naumann, who later became his state secretary.

DR. FRITZ: Did Fritzsche come to you frequently to learn more about the Minister’s views because the Minister did not inform Defendant Fritzsche?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Very often, because Herr Fritzsche knew that I also had many private conversations with the Minister and he always complained that he was left in suspense and all at sea, and he asked me if I could not tell him the Minister’s view about this or that matter. I did succeed in helping him by occasionally arranging for him to be invited by Dr. Goebbels to private meetings in which I spoke openly about Herr Fritzsche’s needs.

DR. FRITZ: Did Goebbels keep the radio strictly under his own control?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: During the war the radio was for Dr. Goebbels the most important instrument of propaganda. He did not keep such a strict watch on any department as he did on the radio department. At meetings over which he presided he personally decided the most minute details of the artistic program...

DR. FRITZ: That is enough, Witness. Was Fritzsche really the leading man of German broadcasting, as he appeared to the outside world?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: By no means. The leading man was Dr. Goebbels himself. Apart from that, Fritzsche here again was between two stools, because on the other side demands came in from the Foreign Office with reference to foreign broadcasts.

DR. FRITZ: Was Fritzsche in his radio speeches perhaps too halfhearted for Dr. Goebbels?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: I myself, by order of the Minister, repeatedly had to reprimand Fritzsche, because the former claimed that his broadcasts were much too weak.

DR. FRITZ: Did Goebbels also praise him? And if so in what manner?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: If, as was often the case, the Minister did praise Fritzsche...

THE PRESIDENT: We haven’t any interest in whether Goebbels praised him.

DR. FRITZ: Then another question: Did Defendant Fritzsche ever contradict the Minister?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Herr Fritzsche was one of the few people in the Ministry of Propaganda who did contradict the Minister, both during conferences and in his apartment. He was always calm and determined and often it had a certain effect.

DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, may I have your permission to draw your attention at this point to a document, an affidavit by Scharping, Document Number Fritzsche-2, which has already been mentioned frequently. It is at the end of Page 7 and the beginning of Page 8 in my Document Book Number 2. Might I perhaps quote one short sentence: “At the so-called ministerial conferences it was Fritzsche alone who contradicted Goebbels on political questions.”

Witness, who was responsible for the definitely false or exaggerated news in the German press during the Sudeten crisis?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: That was Alfred Ingemar Berndt, the head of the department. At that time he spent whole nights pouring over General Staff maps, directories, and lists of names, using them to fabricate atrocity reports from the Sudetenland. Herr Fritzsche watched this with anxiety. He came to me once and asked me, “What are we drifting into? Are we not drifting into war? If only we knew what they really want at the top and what is behind it all.”

DR. FRITZ: And then another question on the same subject. Did Goebbels, in connection with any military or political actions, which were being carried out or were to be carried out, ever consult beforehand with the Defendant Fritzsche?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: Not only did he not consult with Herr Fritzsche, but with nobody at all. The Minister never had any such consultations.

DR. FRITZ: Fritzsche asserts that he did not hear of Dr. Goebbels’ instigation of the anti-Semitic excesses in November 1938 until much later, a remark made by Dr. Goebbels himself. That does not sound very credible, because, after all, Defendant Fritzsche was a close associate of Dr. Goebbels. Can you give us an explanation?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: In 1938 certainly none of us in the Ministry realized that Dr. Goebbels was the instigator. During the night in question Dr. Goebbels was not in Berlin. As far as I remember, just before that he had been to see the Führer and he was still in southern Germany. The conversation which you have just mentioned did not take place until the middle of the war. It took place at Lanke, where the Minister had a house and it was on an occasion when Herr Fritzsche had also been invited. Someone put the direct question to the Minister as to the cause of these excesses of November 1938. Thereupon Dr. Goebbels said that the National Socialist economic leadership had come to the conclusion that the elimination of Jewry from Germany’s economy could not be carried out further...

DR. FRITZ: Witness, excuse me, that is enough. We have heard about it already today. Did Fritzsche later on—I believe it is supposed to have been in June 1944—talk to you about his general attitude toward the Jewish problem?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: In May or June 1944 I talked to Fritzsche in his apartment about the fact that on the day of these outrages he had said to me, “Schirmeister, can one participate in this sort of thing and still be a decent human being?” And then Herr Fritzsche said to me, “You know, I have really always been an anti-Semitic, but only in the sense that some of the Jews themselves also were.” And he mentioned a Jewish newspaper, I believe the _C. V. Zeitung_...

DR. FRITZ: That is enough, Witness. Then how do you explain Fritzsche’s anti-Semitic statements in various of his radio speeches?

VON SCHIRMEISTER: They had been ordered by the Minister. We had seen from the British press that a certain anti-Semitic current in Britain was growing, but a law in England stopped this from appearing in the British press. Now the Minister tried to find a common factor against which our propaganda abroad could be directed. This common factor was the Jew.

To give support to the foreign propaganda by the Reich, Herr Fritzsche received orders that in Germany, too, he should touch upon this subject in some of his broadcasts.

THE PRESIDENT: How long do you think you will be in concluding the case of the Defendant Fritzsche?

DR. FRITZ: I think three-quarters of an hour at the most, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Well then, after that the Tribunal will continue the case of the Defendant Bormann until 1 o’clock tomorrow.

[_The Tribunal adjourned until 29 June 1946 at 1000 hours._]

ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY-SEVENTH DAY
Saturday, 29 June 1946

_Morning Session_

THE PRESIDENT: I will deal with the supplementary applications for documents.

The first application on this list was on behalf of the Defendant Von Neurath, and that has been dealt with.

The second was on behalf of the Defendant Streicher. That was withdrawn.

The third was on behalf of the Defendant Dönitz for an affidavit of former Fleet Judge Jäckel. That application is granted.

The next two, 4 and 5, were on behalf of the Defendant Von Neurath. Those have been withdrawn.

The next three, 6, 7, and 8, on behalf of the Defendant Rosenberg, are denied.

The next, on behalf of the Defendant Von Papen, have all been dealt with during the presentation of the defense on behalf of Von Papen.

The next two, on behalf of the Defendant Bormann, are granted.

The last three, 12, 13, and 14, on behalf of the Defendant Göring, are subject to the possibility of agreement being reached upon the question of whether affidavits are to be presented or witnesses called, and therefore that application is postponed.

That is all.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, before the Tribunal goes on with the business of the day, I should like to inform the Tribunal of the results of my inquiries as to outstanding witnesses and perhaps these could be supplemented by any of the learned counsel who can.

My Lord, as far as I can see, there are the witnesses whom Your Lordship has just mentioned of the Defendant Göring, dealing with the question of Katyn.

My Lord, the next witnesses that were outstanding were three that the Tribunal allowed to be called for cross-examination if desired in respect to the case of the Defendant Kaltenbrunner. I have just had a word with Dr. Kauffmann, and he says that he will not require the witnesses Tiefenbacher, Steinbauer, and Strupp for cross-examination.

As far as my information goes, the next is Admiral Böhm in the case of the Defendant Raeder.

THE PRESIDENT: Before you get to that, Sir David, on the list that I have there was a witness called Strupp for Kaltenbrunner.