Chapter II: Front Matter (2)

[_Turning to the defendant._] Did you know that was the line that was being taken, that it was systematic in the sense of being an organic part of the Hitler regime?

VON NEURATH: No, in that sense certainly not.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you know that the British paper, the _Manchester Guardian_, was quoting, “...an eminent German conservative, who is in close touch with the Nationalist members of the German Government, and certainly more sympathetic to the Right than to the Left...” has given the number of victims as 20,000—as many as 20,000 in April? Did you know that the figure was being put that high?

VON NEURATH: No, and I do not believe it, either.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, let us see what the German press was saying.

On the 24th of April 1933 the _Times_ was quoting the _Hamburger Fremdenblatt_, which, in turn, was invoking official sources and stating that there were 18,000 Communists in prison in the Reich and that the 10,000 prisoners in Prussia included many social intellectuals and others.

Would the _Hamburger Fremdenblatt_, which had a very long career as a newspaper, if it misquoted official sources under your Government in April 1933, have misrepresented the position? It would not, would it?

VON NEURATH: That I do not know, but I do know that a lot of trouble is always being stirred up by means of figures.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But Defendant, here is a figure quoted, as far as I know, by a responsible Hamburg paper, as an official figure, requoted by the London _Times_, which is the principal paper in England. Wasn’t that sufficiently serious for you to bring it up in the Cabinet?

VON NEURATH: I am very sorry, but with all respect to the papers—and even the London papers—they do not always tell the truth.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No. That is a perfectly reasonable comment. Newspapers, like everyone else, are misinformed. But when you had a widespread account of terrible conditions giving large numbers, did you not, as one of the respectable elements in this Government, think that it was worthy of bringing it up in Cabinet and finding out whether it was true or not?

VON NEURATH: How do you know that I did not do that?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is what I am asking. Did you bring it up, and what was the result when you did?

VON NEURATH: I have already told you before that I always remonstrated about these incidents, with Hitler—not in the Cabinet, but with Hitler.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is not what I asked you. You see, Defendant, what I asked you was why you did not bring it up in the Cabinet. Here was a Cabinet established with conservative elements to keep it respectable. Why did you not bring it up in the Cabinet and try and get the support of Herr Von Papen, Herr Hugenberg, and all the other conservative gentlemen in the Cabinet of whom we have heard? Why did you not bring it up?

VON NEURATH: For the very simple reason that it seemed to be more effective to tell Hitler directly.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: In April 1933, some 2 months after it was formed, are you telling the Tribunal that you did not think it was worth while to bring a matter up in the Reich Cabinet? Within 2 months of Hitler coming into power, it had become so “Führer-principled” that you could not bring it up in the Cabinet?

VON NEURATH: I repeat—and after all I alone should be the one to judge—that I considered direct representations made to Hitler more effective.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. Well, now, I just want—I do not suppose you were interested, but did you know about the putting into concentration camps of any of the gentlemen that I mentioned to the Defendant Von Papen: Herr Von Ossietzski or Herr Mühsam or Dr. Hermann Dunker, or any of the other left-wing writers and lawyers and politicians? Did you know that they had gone to a concentration camp from which they never returned?

VON NEURATH: No.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You did not know at all?

VON NEURATH: No.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: At any rate, you knew—as your documents have shown—when you went to London in June, you knew very well how, at any rate, foreign opinion had crystallized against Germany because of the treatment of the Jews and the opposition parties, did you not, when you went to the world economic conference in June?

VON NEURATH: Yes. That was mentioned by me in a report that was read in Court.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now you say that your reaction was to go to Hitler and protest. I just want to look at what the existing documents show that you did. Now, let us take April, first of all. Would you look at Document D-794?

[_The document was handed to the defendant._]

My Lord, it is Document Book 12a, Page 8. It will be Exhibit GB-513.

Now, this is a letter from you to Hitler dated the 2d of April 1933:

“The Italian Ambassador telephoned me last night and informed me
that Mussolini had declared himself prepared to deny, through
the Italian delegations abroad, all news about the persecution
of the Jews in Germany that had been distorted by propaganda, if
we should consider this course useful. I thanked Herr Cerruti,
also on your behalf, and told him that we would be glad to
accept his offer.

“I regard this friendly gesture of Mussolini’s as important
enough to bring it to your notice.”

What did you think had been distorted by propaganda?

VON NEURATH: Yes, please read this part. Here it says, “the news had been distorted by propaganda.” That is what it is about.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is what I was so interested in, Defendant. What did you think had been distorted, and how much knowledge had you, so that you could decide whether the news had been distorted or not?

VON NEURATH: That I really cannot tell you any more today.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You knew that Jews had been beaten, killed, taken away from their families, and put into concentration camps and that their property had been destroyed and was beginning to be sold under value. You knew that all these things were happening, did you not?

VON NEURATH: No, certainly not at that time. That they were beaten, yes, that I had heard; but at the time no Jews were murdered or perhaps only once in one individual case.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, so you see that the _Times_ and _Manchester Guardian_ of that date gave the most circumstantial examples of typical murders of Jews? You must have seen that; you must have seen that the foreign press was saying it. Why did you think that it was distorted? What inquiry did you make to discover whether it was distorted?

VON NEURATH: Who—who—who—who gave me information about—about—about—murders?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am putting it to you that it was in the foreign press. I have given you the two examples from the press of my own country; and obviously from what Signor Mussolini was saying, it was in the press of other countries. You must have known what they were saying. What inquiries did you make to find out whether it was true or not?

VON NEURATH: I used the only way possible for me, namely through the police authorities concerned.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you ask Himmler, or did you ask the Defendant Göring?

VON NEURATH: Most certainly not.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What? You asked Himmler? Or did you ask the Defendant Göring? Why not? Why not? He was the head, inventing the Gestapo and the concentration camps at that time. He would have been a very good man to ask, would he not?

VON NEURATH: The man who could have given me information was the chief, the supreme head of the Police, and it was in no way personally...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you ask the Defendant Frick?

VON NEURATH: In any case, I did not ask him personally.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now...

VON NEURATH: Certainly not personally.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May I suggest to you that I do not want to take up time? Why did you not take the trouble to ask Göring or Frick or anyone who could have given you, as I suggest, proper information?

Would you look at Document 3893-PS?

[_The document was handed to the defendant._]

The Tribunal will find it at Page 128 of Document Book 12a. My Lord, that will become Exhibit GB-514.

This is the _Völkischer Beobachter_, quoting you on the 17th of September 1933, on the Jewish question:

“The Minister had no doubt that the stupid talk abroad about
purely internal German affairs, as for example the Jewish
problem, will quickly be silenced if one realizes that the
necessary cleaning up of public life must temporarily entail
individual cases of personal hardship but that nevertheless it
served only to establish all the more firmly the authority of
justice and law in Germany.”

Was that your view in September 1933, of the action against the Jews and against the left-wing sympathizers up to that time, that it was a “necessary cleaning up of public life,” which would, of course, temporarily involve “individual cases” of hardship, and that was necessary “more firmly” to establish “the authority of justice and law in Germany”? Was that your view?

VON NEURATH: I told you during—during—during my—I think it was the day before yesterday in answer to the question of what my attitude was toward the Jewish problem, that in view of the inundation and domination of public life in Germany by Jews which occurred after the last war, I thought it absolutely right to have these things either eliminated or restricted. That is what I am referring to here.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: So that it is right—I mean, you are not running away from what you said on the 17th of September 1933—that you thought the treatment of the Jews in 1933 a “necessary cleaning up of public life” in Germany? Are we to take it that your view then is your view now, and you do not deviate from it at all? Is that right?

VON NEURATH: That is still my view today, do you not see, only it should have been carried out by different methods.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: All right. Well, we will not go into discussions of it.

Am I to take it that you knew and approved of the breakdown of political opposition?

VON NEURATH: No, that is...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, then, let us take it by stages. Did you believe in the prescribing, the making illegal of the Communist Party?

VON NEURATH: In those days, most certainly, because you have heard, have you not, that we were facing civil war.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Very well. You agreed with that. Did you agree with the breaking down and making illegal of the trade unions?

VON NEURATH: No.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What did you do to protest against the breaking down of the trade unions?

VON NEURATH: That was in a sphere—this sphere did not concern me at all. I was Foreign Minister and not Minister of the Interior.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. Well, again, I am not going to argue with you. You thought it was perfectly right as Foreign Minister to remain and give your support and authority to a government which was doing something of which you disapproved, like breaking down the trade union movement. Is that how we are to take it?

VON NEURATH: Yes. Did you ever hear that a minister...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now what about...

VON NEURATH: I would like to say, did you ever hear that every cabinet minister must leave the cabinet if he does not agree with one particular thing?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Every cabinet minister for whom I have any respect left a cabinet if it did something of which he morally disapproved, and I understood from you that you morally disapproved of the breaking down of the trade union movement. If I am wrong, correct it. If you did not disapprove, say so.

VON NEURATH: I did not think that it was immoral. It was a political measure, but not an immoral one.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Then let us take Number 3, take the Social Democratic Party, that was a party which had taken a great share in the Government of Germany and of Prussia for the years since the war. Did you think it right, morally right, to make that party illegal and unable to take any further share in the carrying on of the country?

VON NEURATH: No, certainly not. But I do not at all know...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let us get it clear. Did you think it right or not?

VON NEURATH: I just told you “No” but I do not at all know whether you...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What did you do to protest against that? What did you do to protest against the dissolution of the Social Democratic Party?

VON NEURATH: The most I could do against this dissolution was to state my objections.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: To whom did you state your objection against the dissolution of the Social Democratic Party?

VON NEURATH: To Hitler, again and again.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Again and again you didn’t raise the dissolution of the parties, the opposition parties? You never raised that in the Cabinet; that is right, isn’t it?

VON NEURATH: I cannot remember whether this question was discussed in the Cabinet; I do not know any more.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. All right. Let us just pass to another aspect and still on 1933. I just want you to have in mind what was happening in 1933. Did you know that after you had announced that Germany was leaving the Disarmament Conference and the League of Nations, that orders for military preparations to deal with the possibility of war, as consequent on that action had been got out?

VON NEURATH: No. In 1932-1933 I knew nothing about it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: In 1933, yes, it started—in Document C-140, Exhibit USA-51—on the 25th of October 1933. Now, Defendant, you were Foreign Minister. Are you telling the Tribunal that neither had Hitler nor Marshal Von Blomberg—I think he was Reichswehrminister—that none of them told you, as a result of this action, “we shall have to have the preparations ready in case sanctions, including military sanctions, are imposed on Germany.” Did none of them tell you that that was to be the result of your move in foreign policy?

VON NEURATH: No, nor was there any action to be feared.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. Well, now it is rather—you will agree with me—it is rather odd not to inform the Foreign Minister of the possible consequences of his policy in the military preparations you are taking to deal with it; it is rather odd, isn’t it in any system of government, of totalitarian, democratic, or anything you like, it is rather odd not to tell the Foreign Minister what you are doing in the way of military preparations, to deal with his policy, isn’t it?

VON NEURATH: I certainly had to decide on the opinion as to whether any danger threatened from our withdrawal from the League of Nations and the Disarmament Conference, that is, I had to decide whether this might have any probable consequences. The military had their own opinion, and presumably—but I do not know, anyhow, I was not informed; but there were certain discussions amongst the General Staff, I assume.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now, I just want to sum up for 1933 and I want to do that quickly. May I take it, that up to the end of 1933, despite these matters which I have put to you, that you were perfectly satisfied with the respectability and peace-loving intentions of the Government; is that right?

VON NEURATH: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now, just let us turn to 1934. You remember your conversation with Mr. Dodd, the American Ambassador, which you mentioned in your Document Book Number 1, at Page 54. It was on the 28th of May 1934; and Mr. Dodd had told you, apparently, what he had said to Hitler about the way Americans are trying to control profiteering by great financial interests. He said he was glad that—then he says that you said that you were glad that he had informed Hitler and then Mr. Dodd added “that the Chancellor had not agreed with me.” Then he says:

“Von Neurath was silent for a moment after my remarks. It was
plain that he was entirely of my way of thinking. He begged me
to say to Washington that the outbreak was entirely contrary to
the German Government purpose, but he did not commit himself on
Hitler.”

What did you mean by that, “...that the outbreak against Jews was entirely contrary to German Government purpose...”?

VON NEURATH: By that I wanted to say that the members of the Cabinet, the majority of them, were against these methods. Apart from that, I can add that I had just asked Mr. Dodd to go and see Hitler personally so as to give backing to the suggestions I was making to Hitler. I took him there.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But did you know, in May 1934, that the German Government was going in for systematic and virulent anti-Semitism, didn’t you know that?

VON NEURATH: Anti-Semitic propaganda, I knew mainly from Herr Goebbels’ speeches.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes; well, let us pass to something a little more concrete. Had you any reason for disliking General Von Schleicher or General Von Bredow?

VON NEURATH: No.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What was the effect on your mind of these two gentlemen and Frau Von Schleicher being killed in the blood purge of the 30th of June 1934?

VON NEURATH: I hardly need to answer that. Of course, I was repulsed by it, that is clear; but then I told you the other day that unfortunately in the case of such a revolt, innocent people always have to suffer as well.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. But just let us get it clear. You told the Tribunal the other day that you thought—and had some reason for thinking—that there was a movement in the SA, that is, a movement led by Röhm and Ernst, and I suppose people that you would consider undesirable, of that sort. What reason had you to suppose that General Von Schleicher and General Von Bredow had been in a conspiracy, if any?

VON NEURATH: I had no reason at all, and I do not believe today that they were plotting.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you hear about the unfortunate way in which Herr Von Papen kept on losing secretaries at the same time? You remember, you know.

VON NEURATH: Exactly the same.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you know that Herr Von Bose and Jung were killed, Von Tschirschky was arrested, and two other gentlemen were also arrested? Did you hear about that?

VON NEURATH: Yes, I did, through Herr Von Papen.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And did you regard the blood purge of the 30th of June as just another element in the necessary cleaning up of public life?

VON NEURATH: To the extent that it was carried out with all the outrages and murders of innocent people, most certainly not.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Why did you go on in a government that was using murder as an instrument of political action?

VON NEURATH: I have already told you twice that in the case of such revolutions such mishaps cannot be avoided, most unfortunately.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. Well, now, let us take just another of your 1934 experiences. You knew about the terroristic acts that were going on in Austria in May and June of 1934, did you not? And by “terroristic acts”—don’t let us have any doubt about it—what I mean is causing explosions in Austrian public utilities and railways and things like that. I mean dynamite. I don’t mean anything vague. You knew that such acts were going on in Austria in May and June 1934, did you not?

VON NEURATH: Yes, I heard about it, and I always opposed that sort of thing because I knew that it was done by Nazis; and let me say once more, mostly by Austrian Nazis.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What position did Herr Köpke have in your Ministry on the 31st of May 1934?

VON NEURATH: He was the Ministerial Director.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Ministerial Director: Quite a responsible position, was it not?

VON NEURATH: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you remember Herr Köpke reporting to you on the 31st of May 1934, on a visit of Baron von Wächter?

VON NEURATH: No, I cannot remember that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, just think; you know. Baron von Wächter was one of the leaders of the Putsch against Dollfuss 6 weeks later on the 25th of July. Don’t you remember Herr Köpke making a report to you and you passing it on to Hitler?

VON NEURATH: No, I cannot remember that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let’s refresh your memory if you don’t remember it. Would you look at Document D-868? It will become Exhibit GB-515. Just look at it. I will read it over, but just look at the signatories carefully; and if you will be good enough to look at the top, I think you will find on the original, there are your own initials; and on the left hand side there is a note: “The Reich Chancellor has been informed 6/6.” That is on the 6th of June. That is initialed “L” by Lammers—Dr. Lammers. Then there is a note below that: “From the Reich Chancellor on 6th June,” also initialed by Lammers I think. And on the other side you will see there is a note which is certainly initialed “Lammers.” “Habicht is coming today... L 6/6.” And this memorandum comes back from the Reich Chancellor to the Foreign Office on the same day. Now just let’s see what report you were getting from Austria and passing on to Hitler. We will omit, unless you want it particularly, a description of Baron von Wächter’s fresh, youthful appearance in Paragraph 1; but it goes on to say:

“His statements were obviously made in full consciousness of
serious responsibility. His estimation of the affairs and
personalities that came under review was clear and definite.
Herr Von Wächter drew up for me, too, a picture of the situation
in Austria which was, in some of its colors, even darker and
more serious than it had appeared to us here up till now. The
extremist tendencies of the National Socialists in Austria were
constantly on the increase. Terrorist acts were multiplying.
Regardless of who actually undertook the demolitions and other
terrorist acts in individual cases, each such act provoked a new
wave of extremism and also of desperate acts. As Herr Von
Wächter repeatedly and sadly stressed, uniformity of leadership
was lacking. The SA did what it wanted and what it, for its
part, considered necessary. The political leadership at the same
time introduced measures which sometimes meant the exact
opposite. Thus the great terrorist action, as the result of
which the railway lines leading to Vienna were blown up, was by
no means committed by Marxists but by the Austrian SA and indeed
against the wishes of the political leadership which, as he
believed, did not participate in any way either in the act or
its preparation. Such is the picture as a whole. In detail, in
individual provinces and districts, the confusion was, if
possible, even greater.”

Then he says that the main seat of unrest is Carinthia, and where conditions were worst. And then he says:

“Herr Von Wächter thought that here improvements must be
introduced most speedily, that is, by means of the
centralization of all forces active in the interests of National
Socialism both in and outside Austria. Personal questions should
play no part here. The decisive word in this connection could,
of course, be given only by the Führer himself. He, Wächter, was
in complete agreement with Herr Habicht on all these matters. As
far as he knew, Herr Habicht had already succeeded in having a
brief conversation with the Reich Chancellor today.”

Now just let’s pause there for a moment. Herr Habicht was appointed about that time press attaché at the German Embassy in Vienna. The appointment of Herr Habicht as press attaché would be done either by you or with your approval, would it not? It was under your department?

VON NEURATH: Right now I no longer know if Herr Habicht—Herr Habicht was the National Socialist leader (Landesleiter) for Austria in Munich and whether or not he went to Vienna as press attaché I do not know.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, you can take it that he went to Vienna as press attaché at this time, at the end of May 1934; and what I am asking you is, was it not either at your order or with your approval that he was given a post which gave him diplomatic immunity in the middle of his plottings?

VON NEURATH: If Herr Habicht was really there, this happened neither with my knowledge nor with my approval; but presumably it was arranged by the Ministry of Propaganda to whom these press men were subordinated.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, you will agree with me, Defendant, that this is not a very pleasant document; it does not describe a very pleasant state of affairs. Let me remind you, this came, from your Ministerial Director to you and went on to the Führer and came back from Dr. Lammers with a note: “Habicht is coming today.” Surely as...

VON NEURATH: To the Führer?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, yes.

VON NEURATH: Besides, Mr. Prosecutor, I want to point out to you that here only the Austrian National Socialists are being discussed. With them I had nothing at all to do.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What I am pointing out to you is that the document, this Foreign Office document goes to the Reich Chancellery; it comes back on the 6th of June with a note from Dr. Lammers saying, “Habicht is coming today.” You must have known all about Habicht on the 6th of June. It is mentioned in this report.

VON NEURATH: Not at all. I have this note from Lammers which means that Habicht was coming to see the Reich Chancellor. And this report from my Ministerial Director I immediately passed on to the Reich Chancellor to show him what the conditions were in Austria. That was the reason.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But you remember Herr Von Papen giving evidence a few days ago; and when I asked him who were the leading Reich German personalities who influenced the Putsch in Austria in July 1934, he thought for a long time and the only leading Reich German personality that he could remember as influencing the Putsch was this very Herr Habicht?

VON NEURATH: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well then, what I am putting to you is—and pausing there to get it—that you knew very well, on the 6th of June 1934, that Herr Habicht, this leading Reich personality according to the Defendant Von Papen, was organizing revolution in Austria, didn’t you?

VON NEURATH: Whatever makes you suppose a thing like that? Herr Habicht never came to see me. He went to see the Reich Chancellor.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You saw this report. This is a report of your Ministerial Director. I have just read what Von Wächter thought.

VON NEURATH: There is not one word about Herr Habicht in it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, I just read that to you. May I remind you:

“The decisive word in this connection could of course be given
only by the Führer himself. He, Wächter, was in complete
agreement with Herr Habicht on all these matters.”

In other words, what Wächter is putting to the Foreign Office were the views of Habicht no less than himself.

VON NEURATH: Yes, that is certainly in there. Well, all these terrorist acts and all these disturbances which are described in this document were brought to the attention of the Reich Chancellor by myself.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, just look what the report says at the foot of the page:

“But when nothing happened in the meantime, and on the other
hand the counter measures of the Austrian Government grew more
brutal and severe from day to day, the radical elements made
themselves felt once more and came forward with the statement
that the Chancellor had issued his order only for tactical
reasons and was inwardly in agreement with every manly act of
opposition and had in view, as his own political aim, merely the
weakening of Dollfuss’ hateful system, though in a way which
should be as unobtrusive as possible to the outside world. They
are now working with this argument.”

Listen to the next bit, his suggestion to you, the nearest warning of trouble which any Foreign Minister ever heard of:

“One constantly stumbles on this idea during discussions and it
is secretly spreading. A change must be made soon and a uniform
leadership created. Otherwise, as Herr Von Wächter concluded his
impressive description, a disaster may occur any day which would
have the worst possible consequences in foreign policy, not only
for Austria alone, but above all for Germany herself.”

And then, dramatically, in the middle of the conversation, Herr Von Wächter receives a telephone message that he had better not go back to Vienna or he will be arrested on his arrival; and within 6 weeks he had started the Putsch and Chancellor Dollfuss had been shot. Do you remember now? Did you not appreciate, at the beginning of June 1934, that there was the greatest danger of an uprising and trouble in Austria?

VON NEURATH: Yes, quite definitely so. That is the very reason why I sent the report to the Chancellor. I could not interfere in Austria.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Perhaps you can tell me, on the question on which the Defendant Von Papen was unable to specify, who, in your opinion, were the other prominent Reich German personalities who were behind the Dollfuss Putsch in Austria? You say you were not. Who, in your opinion, were these personalities that Herr Von Papen mentions as being behind the Dollfuss Putsch?

VON NEURATH: I know absolutely none. I know only Habicht, and him I knew only as a person against whom I protested to Hitler because of his inflammatory actions. Apart from him I did not know any Reich Germans. The others were all Austrian National Socialists who have been mentioned innumerable times during the Trial but whom I did not know.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am not mentioning them. I am mentioning the Defendant Von Papen’s prominent Reich German personalities, and I am trying very hard to find out who they were Are you taking the same line, that the only one you can remember is the press attaché, Herr Habicht? Is that all you can help the Tribunal in this matter?

VON NEURATH: I have already said—and that will have to suffice—I do not know anyone.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Is it your opinion that your Minister, Dr. Rieth, knew nothing about this, despite what Mr. Messersmith says on that point? Do you think Dr. Rieth knew nothing about the Putsch?

VON NEURATH: I cannot tell you to what extent Herr Rieth was informed. You know, however, that when he acted ostentatiously later on that I recalled him right away. Apart from that, I always forbade the ministers to meddle in such matters.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You haven’t any doubt in your own mind that Dr. Rieth knew all about the impending Putsch, have you?

VON NEURATH: Oh yes, I have considerable doubts that he knew all about it. I do not believe so because his whole character was not at all like that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, at any rate, you knew on the 25th of July that the Austrian Nazis had made this Putsch and had murdered Dollfuss?

VON NEURATH: That is not exactly a secret.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, I know it. A lot of these things were not secrets. What I am interested in was your knowledge—when you found out.

VON NEURATH: Afterward, yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But didn’t that give you any qualms about remaining in a government which had extended its policy of murder from at home to abroad, through the Party elements in Austria?

VON NEURATH: If I were responsible for every single murderer, for every single German murderer who was active abroad, then I would have had a lot of work to do, would I not?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You knew, Herr Von Neurath—and I shall remind you how in a moment—you knew that the Austrian NSDAP was in close touch with, and acting under, the orders of Hitler all the time when Hitler was head of your Government; you knew that perfectly well, didn’t you?

VON NEURATH: He was the chief of the NSDAP. It is quite natural that they were collaborating with him.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes. Now there is just one other point...

VON NEURATH: Yes. I want to tell you another thing: I continuously remonstrated with Hitler, together with Herr Von Papen, about the fact that this Herr Habicht was doing the things he was.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We will take that up in a moment. I just want to get one point of fact. Does this accord with your recollection: I have been through all the reports of the Defendant Von Papen; and apart from three personal reports, two dealing with Herr Von Tschirschky and one dealing with abuse of Hitler, which is of no political significance, we have 28 reports. Nineteen of these reports are marked as being copies to the Foreign Office. Is that in accord with your recollection, that three but of four of Herr Von Papen’s reports would come to you to be seen by you?

VON NEURATH: That I cannot tell you at this late day.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You are quite right, Herr Von Neurath. You wouldn’t know how many went to you, but you say you saw a considerable number of Herr Von Papen’s reports. I think there were 19; I am sure you can take it that they are marked—19 are marked, “Passed the Foreign Office”.

VON NEURATH: I do believe you, yes; but the question is how many were submitted to me, for I did not receive every individual report from every ambassador or minister abroad. Otherwise, I would have been drowned in paper.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I quite agree; but what I asked you was, did you receive these from Herr Von Papen, who was supposed to be in a rather special position dealing with a very difficult problem? Did you receive a considerable number of reports from Herr Von Papen to Hitler as passed to you?

VON NEURATH: I can tell you only that I received some reports but certainly not all. I cannot tell you more than that today.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, perhaps this would be a convenient time to break off.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn at this time.

[_The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours._]

_Afternoon Session_

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I just want to get two or three facts clear about 1935 before I put some questions to you.

On the 10th of March Germany announced the establishment of an air force and on the 16th of March I think you, among others, signed the law introducing compulsory military service. You explained all that to us; I don’t want to go over it again, but I just want to ask you about the Secret Reich Defense Law of the 21st of May 1935. Would you look at General Thomas’ comment on it.

My Lord, it is at Page 52 of Document Book 12. It is about Page 71 of the German document book.

THE PRESIDENT: Number 12a or b?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Number 12, My Lord. That is the original one; Page 52, My Lord.

“The Central Directorate of the supreme Reich authorities,
ordered in case of war, has influenced the development and the
activity of the war economy organization to such an extent that
it is necessary to discuss this matter in detail. The
foundations had already been laid, for the central organization
of the supreme Reich authorities in the event of a war prior to
1933 in many discussions and decrees, but it was radically
altered when the National Socialists came into power, and
especially by the death of Reich President Von Hindenburg. The
latest orders were decreed in the Reich Defense Law of 21 May
1935, supposed to be published only in case of war but already
declared valid for carrying out war preparations. As this law
fixed the duties of the Armed Forces and the other Reich
authorities in case of war, it was also the fundamental ruling
for the development and activity of the war economy
organization.” (Document 2353-PS)

And you will remember that on the same day the Defendant Schacht had been made Plenipotentiary for War Economy.

Did you appreciate at the time, Defendant, that that law was the fundamental ruling for the development and activity of the war economy organization?

VON NEURATH: Yes, but only in case of a war, that is, in case of mobilization.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You see that the point that I am putting to you is that it had already been declared valid for carrying out war preparations. Didn’t you understand that it was a big step forward for war preparations?

VON NEURATH: Not at all. It was not a big step forward at all. It was only the establishing of the necessary measures in case of a war. In every country you have to guarantee the co-operation of the various offices in the event of an attack.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is your view. Now, at this time, up to May 1935, is it correct that the German Foreign Office was still staffed by diplomats or Foreign Office officials of the older school and had not yet been invaded by the products of the Bureau Ribbentrop?

VON NEURATH: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you receive any warnings from your own staff as to the happenings in Austria, or the rearmament, the declaration of the air force, and the conscription?

VON NEURATH: I was advised about happenings in Austria, as can be seen from the report which you submitted to me. The re-establishment of the Armed Forces was a decision which was made in the Cabinet, and of course I knew about that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, but—I am sorry, probably I did not put the proper emphasis on the word. When I said warning I meant a real warning from your officials that these happenings were making Germany regarded abroad as being bloodthirsty and warmongering. Did you get any warnings from your officials?

VON NEURATH: Certainly not, for that was not the case, and if any assertions like that were being made abroad, they certainly were not true.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, would you look at Document 3308-PS, the affidavit of the interpreter Paul Schmidt.

My Lord, it is Page 68 of Document Book 12a, and it is Page 65 or 66 of the German version, Paragraph 4.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Now, just let me read you Paragraphs 4 and 5, as to what Herr Paul Schmidt says:

“4. The attempted Putsch in Austria and the murder of Dollfuss
on 25 July 1934 seriously disturbed the career personnel of the
Foreign Office because these events discredited Germany in the
eyes of the world. It was common knowledge that the Putsch had
been engineered by the Party, and the fact that the attempted
Putsch followed so closely on the heels of the blood purge
within Germany could not help but suggest the similarity of Nazi
methods, both in foreign and in domestic policy. This concern
over the repercussions of the attempted Putsch was soon
heightened by a recognition of the fact that these episodes were
of influence in leading to the Franco-Soviet Consultative Pact
of 5 December 1934, a defensive arrangement which was not heeded
as a warning by the Nazis.”

Defendant, let’s take that. In these three points, is it correct, as Herr Schmidt says, that the attempted Putsch and the murder of Dollfuss seriously disturbed the career personnel in the Foreign Office?

VON NEURATH: Not only the career personnel of my office were disquieted over this but I, of course, was also disquieted.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And taking the last sentence:

“This concern”—that is the disturbance by the Putsch—“over the
repercussions of the attempted Putsch was soon heightened by a
recognition of the fact that these episodes”—blood purge and
the Putsch—“were of influence in leading to the Franco-Soviet
Consultative Pact of December 5, 1934, a defensive arrangement
which was not heeded as a warning...”

Is that correct, that among your staff the concern was heightened by recognizing that the blood purge and the Putsch had alarmed France and the Soviet Union as to the position of Germany and led to the consultative pact?

VON NEURATH: No, that is a personal opinion of the interpreter Schmidt.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, with respect to you, Defendant, it is not. What interpreter Schmidt is saying is that that was the opinion of your experienced staff in the Foreign Office and that is what I am putting to you. Is he not right in saying that your experienced staff were concerned that these events had had their effect on the consultative pact?

VON NEURATH: Not in the least.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, at any rate...

VON NEURATH: I can only repeat, the two things had no connection with each other.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Is he correct in his last statement that that arrangement was not heeded as a warning by the Nazis?

VON NEURATH: That I cannot say; I do not know.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now, just look at the next paragraph.

“The announcement in March of the establishment of a German Air
Force and of the introduction of conscription was followed on 2
May 1935 by the conclusion of a mutual assistance pact between
France and the Soviet Union. The career personnel of the Foreign
Office regarded this as a further very serious warning as to the
potential consequences of German foreign policy, but the Nazi
leaders only stiffened their attitude toward the Western Powers,
declaring that they were not going to be intimidated. At this
time the career officials at least expressed their reservations
to the Foreign Minister, Neurath. I do not know whether or not
Neurath in turn related these expressions of concern to Hitler.”

Now, just let us take that. Did—do you agree that the career personnel of the Foreign Office regarded the Franco-Soviet pact as a further very severe, very serious warning as to the potential consequences of German foreign policy?

VON NEURATH: I do not know in the name of which personnel Herr Schmidt is making these statements. But I, at any event, heard nothing to the effect that my career personnel had expressed these opinions.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, here is Herr Schmidt saying, “The career officials, at least, expressed their reservations to the Foreign Minister, Neurath.” That is you.

VON NEURATH: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Are you saying that Herr Schmidt, who after all was a career official although he was an interpreter for a great deal of the time—are you saying that Herr Schmidt is not stating what is accurate when he says that your permanent officials expressed their concern to you?

VON NEURATH: But quite decidedly. How could Herr Schmidt, who was only an insignificant civil servant at that time, know what my career personnel told me and in addition, how could Schmidt judge this? And I should also like to add that Schmidt said here, before this Court, that this affidavit, or whatever it may be, was submitted to him after a serious illness and that he personally knew absolutely nothing more about the contents. That now...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You may rest assured, the Tribunal will correct me if I am wrong, that I put these paragraphs to Herr Schmidt and he agreed with them when he was giving evidence before this Tribunal.

But now just look at one other statement at the end of Paragraph 6. Well, we’ll just—we will read Paragraph 6, because I want to ask you about the end:

“The re-entry of the German military forces into the Rhineland
was preceded by Nazi diplomatic preparation in February. A
German communiqué of 21 February 1936 reaffirmed that the
Franco-Soviet Pact of mutual assistance was incompatible with
the Locarno Treaties and the League Covenant. On the same day
Hitler argued in an interview that no real grounds existed for
conflict between Germany and France. Considered against the
background statements in _Mein Kampf_, offensive to France, the
circumstances were such as to suggest that the stage was being
set for justifying some future act. I do not know how far in
advance the march into the Rhineland was decided upon. I
personally knew about it and discussed it approximately 2 or 3
weeks before it occurred. Considerable fear had been expressed,
particularly in military circles, concerning the risk of this
undertaking. Similar fears were felt by many in the Foreign
Office. It was common knowledge in the Foreign Office, however,
that Neurath was the only person in Government circles consulted
by Hitler who felt confident that the Rhineland could be
remilitarized without armed opposition from Britain and France.
Neurath’s position throughout this period was one which would
induce Hitler to have more faith in Neurath than in the general
run of ‘old school’ diplomats, whom he (Hitler) tended to hold
in disrespect.”

Well, now, if this minor official, of whom you just talked, knew about and discussed the march into the Rhineland some 2 or 3 weeks before it occurred, how much before it occurred had you discussed it?

VON NEURATH: Herr Schmidt must have been clairvoyant, for 2 or 3 weeks in advance even I did not know anything about it. I heard of it about 1 week before Hitler’s decision, and if I—if it says here that I—that it was generally known in the Foreign Ministry that I was the only one in the Government circles consulted by Hitler who was confident that the Rhineland could be remilitarized without armed opposition from Britain and France, it certainly turned out that I was right.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You were right—but is it true that you were the only person in Government circles who thought that it could be occupied without interference by Britain and France? Is that true?

VON NEURATH: I am not in a position to say whether I was the only one, but at any rate, I was convinced of this on the basis of my knowledge of international conditions.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And so that at any rate, whatever the limitations of Paul Schmidt, he knew what your position was quite accurately. Was he not right about it in the last sentence, that your position throughout the period was one which would make Hitler look to you rather than to the rest, the other figures of pro-Nazi diplomacy and foreign affairs, because you were the person who was encouraging him? Is that not the position?

VON NEURATH: I did not encourage him in any way, but I described the situation to him as I saw it, and it was later proved that I had been right.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, I just want you to deal with one other point, which is really 1936, but we will deal with it as I have been dealing with Austria.

You have said once or twice that you objected very strongly to the description of the Austrian treaty, the treaty between the Reich and Austria of the 11th of July as being a subterfuge or a façade. That is right; is it not? You objected very strongly to that view?

VON NEURATH: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you know that Hitler had given instructions to the Gauleiter of the Austrian NSDAP to carry on the struggle at the same time as the treaty was signed?

VON NEURATH: No, I do not know anything about that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just let me remind you. I do not want to put anything that seems unfair.

My Lord, it is Document Book 12, Page 97.

[_Turning to the defendant._] This is the report of Dr. Rainer, whom the Tribunal has had the advantage of seeing, and if you will look at the end of one paragraph he says:

“The agreement of 11 July 1936 was strongly influenced by the
activities of these two persons.”—That is Defendant
Seyss-Inquart and Colonel Glaise-Horstenau—“Papen mentioned
Glaise-Horstenau to the Führer as being a trusted person.”

Now the next paragraph:

“At that time the Führer wished to see the leaders of the
Party...”

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am sorry, My Lord.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you say 97 of Document Book 12?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I did, My Lord, yes. Yes, My Lord; it is the third paragraph and begins, “At that time...”

THE PRESIDENT: Oh yes, I see it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Lordship please:

“At that time the Führer wished to see the leaders of the Party
in Austria, in order to tell them his opinion on what Austrian
National Socialists should do.” (Document Number 812-PS)

THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid it was another “at that time” that we were looking at. Could you give us some other indication?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, it is in the middle.

THE PRESIDENT: It is on 98 in ours.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am so sorry, My Lord. The paging must be different. I beg Your Lordship’s pardon.

[_Continuing._] “At that time the Führer wished to see the
leaders of the Party in Austria in order to tell them his
opinion on what Austria National Socialists should do. Meanwhile
Hinterleitner was arrested, and Dr. Rainer became his
successor...”

Mind you, this is the man who is making this statement.

“...successor and leader of the Austrian Party. On 16 July 1936
Dr. Rainer and Globocznik visited the Führer at the
Obersalzberg, where they received a clear explanation of the
situation and the wishes of the Führer. On 17 July 1936 all
illegal Gauleiter met in Anif near Salzburg, where they received
a complete report from Rainer on the statement of the Führer and
his political instructions for carrying out the fight. At the
same conference the Gauleiter received organizational
instructions from Globocznik and Hiedler.”

Did you not know—did Hitler not tell his Foreign Minister, who had just supervised the conclusion of this treaty, that he intended to give the illegal Gauleiter instructions as to how to carry on the fight? Didn’t he tell you that?

VON NEURATH: No, he did not tell me that, but I do remember—I believe it was the same Dr. Rainer who appeared here as a witness—who stated that Hitler summoned him and other Gauleiter and told them that in the future they were to observe strictly the agreements of 1936. By the way, the matter that you just quoted is not mentioned at all in the document which was submitted to me.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, that’s not mentioned. What is mentioned is the political instructions for carrying out the fight and the organizational instructions from Globocznik. At any rate, you knew nothing about that?

VON NEURATH: No.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, it is rather difficult for you to judge whether the treaty is made sincerely if you do not know the instructions that are given to the illegal Party in Austria by Hitler, is it not?

VON NEURATH: Yes, naturally.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, just let’s deal with one or two other points. I would just like you to look at what Mr. Messersmith says at the end of 1935. You remember this statement—I will give you the reference in a moment—that:

“...Europe will not get away from the myth that Neurath, Papen,
and Mackensen are not dangerous people and that they are
‘diplomats of the old school.’ They are in fact servile
instruments of the regime and just because the outside world
looks upon them as harmless, they are able to work more
effectively. They are able to sow discord just because they
propagate the myth that they are not in sympathy with the
regime.”

Now, can you tell us up to the date on which Mr. Messersmith wrote that—on October 10, 1935—of a single instruction of Hitler’s that you had not carried out?

VON NEURATH: I did not quite understand. A single instruction...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I am sorry; I mislaid the reference. It is Document Book 12, Page 107. That is the reference to it.

[_Turning to the defendant._] You see, Mr. Messersmith is there saying that you and the Defendant Von Papen and Von Mackensen are servile instruments of the regime. Now, I am just asking you whether you could tell us up to the date that Mr. Messersmith wrote, on 10 October 1935, any instruction of Hitler’s that you had refused to carry out.

VON NEURATH: Not only one, but quite a few. I have testified as to the number of times I contradicted Hitler, and I have expressed myself about what Mr. Messersmith is assuming here again—about the importance of Mr. Messersmith’s affidavit.