Chapter M: HERZOG: The Prosecution, Mr. President, does not wish to read any (11)

MR. ROBERTS: It is very late and—now, I just want to deal with a few examples, very very quickly, of the order being carried out, as you said it was only carried out a few times. I just, first of all, want to refer to UK-57, which is Page 309 of Document Book 7, the German copy Page 33—German copy Page 344. I am sorry, I had given you the wrong number. I can read this out. It is a report which is initialed by Keitel.

“On 16 September 1942”—mark the date, that is more than a month
before the Commando Order came into force—“10 Englishmen and 2
Norwegians landed on the Norwegian coast, dressed in the uniform
of the British Mountain Rifle Regiment, heavily armed and
equipped with explosives of every description. After negotiating
difficult mountain country, they blew up important installations
in the power station Glomfjord on 21 September. A German sentry
was shot during the incident. Norwegian workmen were threatened
that they would be chloroformed if they resisted. For this
purpose the Englishmen were equipped with morphium syringes.
Seven of the participants have been arrested. The others escaped
into Sweden.”

Then follow seven names, which I read out to this Court, I think, in January. They were shot on 30 October 1942. That would be, shot as a result of the order which you circulated, although it was not in existence when those men blew up that power station. You told me some little time ago that that power station was a proper military target. These men were in uniform. Can you begin to justify that?

JODL: No, I cannot justify that, and I will not justify it. I consider it completely illegal, because this order could certainly not have been retroactive; but I did not learn of this affair at the time. Of UK-57 I read the first and second parts here for the first time; the third part I read in April 1944.

MR. ROBERTS: Well, now, there are other exhibits dealing with this matter which I am not going to put to you. They have been referred to before, and I do not want to be cumulative. I would like you—or perhaps I will ask you one question first.

I think it was laid down, was it not, that every action taken under this Führer Order was to be reported in the Wehrmacht report?

JODL: Yes, that was ordered.

MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I just want to give you an example of the Wehrmacht report.

526-PS, USA-502, My Lord, it is 7a, Page 15. It is dated 10 May 1943, German Page 21 of the small book.

[_Turning to the defendant._] It is a notice from the “Q” branch of your staff.

“On 30 March 1943 in Toftefjord an enemy cutter was sighted.
Cutter was blown up by enemy. Crew: 2 dead men, 10 prisoners.

“Cutter was sent from Scalloway (Shetlands) by the Norwegian
Navy.

“Arms: Two Colt machine guns, two mounted machine guns, a small
transmitter ... 1,000 kilograms of explosives....

“Purpose: Forming an organization for sabotaging strong-points,
battery positions, staff and troop billets, and bridges....

“Führer order executed by the SD.

“Wehrmacht report of 6 April announces the following:

“In northern Norway an enemy sabotage unit was engaged and
destroyed on approaching the coast.”

That was false, was it not?

JODL: I confirmed this communiqué of 6 April which included the contribution from the commander in Norway as I received it on 6 April; this brief formulation always originated with the commander at the front. But what actually happened is set down in this note of 10 May which, most unfortunately, I never saw, because on 10 May 1943 I traveled by train to Bad Gastein to begin a cure for a severe case of lumbago; and so, unfortunately, I saw this document for the first time here in Nuremberg. I am sorry, because this would have been one of the few cases in which I might have been able to intervene.

MR. ROBERTS: Yes, but, Witness—keep it in front of you—because you see the action was not taken on 10 May; it was taken before, or on 6 April. Look at the last paragraph:

“Wehrmacht report of 6 April announces the following:

“...enemy sabotage unit engaged and destroyed on approaching the
coast.”

Whereas, in fact, they had been taken prisoner and then shot like dogs by the SD.

JODL: Yes, I have just said that. Before this contribution of 6 April, I heard nothing about the whole matter, but only on the 10th of May did it come to our knowledge, and then the Armed Forces Operations Staff drew up this note. The whole investigation into these events was made by the Intelligence Service, the office of Canaris, together with its Security Police; it was not the SD; that is wrong; it was the Security Police.

Unfortunately I did not know of these details; the Intelligence Service knew them. I was concerned with the whole question only because I had to edit the Armed Forces communiqué; otherwise I would never have dealt with the Commando Order; I was quite innocent of it.

MR. ROBERTS: Now I just want to show you one more instance. It is 2610-PS.

It is, My Lord, in small Document Book 7a, Page 23, the German small book Page 41.

Now, I want you to notice, Witness, this is the only document which I rely on, which is not one of your own captured contemporaneous German documents. This is a report from the Judge Advocate General’s Department, United States Army. It concerns 15 United States personnel who were shot under this order. If you look at the second page:

“On the night of 22 March 1944, 2 officers and 13 enlisted men
of the Special Reconnaissance Battalion of the Army of the
United States disembarked from some United States Navy boats and
landed on the Italian coast near Stazione di Framura. All 15 men
were members of the United States Army and were in the military
service of the United States. When they landed they were all
properly dressed in the field uniform of the United States Army
and they had no civilian clothes. Their mission was to demolish
a railroad tunnel on the main line between La Spezia and Genoa.
That rail line was being used by the German Forces to supply
their fighting forces on the Cassino and Anzio Beachhead
fronts.”

That was a good military target, that tunnel, was it not?

JODL: Yes, a military target, absolutely.

MR. ROBERTS: And all 15 men were shot because of the order that you circulated...

JODL: I did not understand. The order which—which I circulated; yes.

MR. ROBERTS: Which you circulated on the 19th of October. You circulated a supplementary order to the Führer Order, the last paragraph of which, I think, disgusted you. That is 503-PS.

JODL: It would be more correct to say “which you had to circulate.”

MR. ROBERTS: I will take that question up in a moment. I do not agree. I must not argue with you, but I must put some questions.

General Dostler, who ordered the shooting of those men, he himself, you see, was also shot by sentence of this court martial.

I am going to turn now from the Commando Order and...

JODL: May I say something else about this document?

MR. ROBERTS: Yes, anything you like.

JODL: This incident never came to my knowledge; at least, I have no recollection of it. As far as I know, it never appeared in the Armed Forces communiqué, because General Dostler did not report the incident to his commanding officer, Kesselring, who might have been able to take, and might have taken, a different course in this affair.

MR. ROBERTS: Why do you say that you had to circulate this order? No man can compel another to circulate an order for murder, unless he does it.

JODL: I have explained at length that this order could not simply be interpreted as an order to murder, but that very serious and justified doubts and considerations could arise with regard to international law and with regard to the justness of this order. In any case, you should have complete appreciation of such a delicate situation, because even now, in my position here, I cannot say or do as I like, and that exactly is what I experienced during these last 5½ years.

MR. ROBERTS: You could have refused. You could have said, and the other generals could have said, could you not: “We are all honorable soldiers. We will not publish and issue those orders”?

JODL: Certainly under other circumstances it might have been possible, first, if at the time I had not had that conflict with the Führer, and secondly, if the British Ministry of War had made my task a little easier. However, these events and the statement made by the British on the 2d of September put the Führer into a rage against which I was powerless. How much I tried to resist, for that the document itself is the best proof, because the threat of punishment and detailed justification for it were directed against me personally.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Roberts, would that be a convenient time to break off?

[_A recess was taken._]

MR. ROBERTS: I want to ask you a few questions about the deportation of the Jews from Denmark. Will you look, please, at a new exhibit, D-547, which I offer as GB-488. Now, that is the OKW Operational Staff from the commander, Denmark, dated 20 September 1943. That is before the teletype which has been put in, 2 days before:

“The Führer has agreed in principle with Dr. Best’s telegram
that the Jewish question in Denmark be solved very soon by
deportation.

“Execution of this measure should take place while the state of
military emergency still exists. It is not certain if sufficient
police forces can be provided for the arrest of the Jews and
their families, about 6,000 persons, most of whom live in
Copenhagen. The Army would be heavily burdened....

“I believe that the results of the deportation will be
serious....

“The armament industry deliveries will be prejudiced.
Considerable disturbances will have to be reckoned with.”

And you made a note on the back of it:

“I know nothing of this. If a political measure is to be carried
out by the commander of Denmark the OKW must be notified by the
Foreign Office.”

Is that right?

JODL: Yes. I would not have recalled this document, but I certainly wrote the note. It proves that I did not remember until now that obviously this question had been discussed in Denmark some days before and that the commander in Denmark had been making objections. Consequently I wrote, I know nothing of this. This is a political measure, and if a political measure is to be carried out in Denmark, then the Foreign Office should kindly notify us.

MR. ROBERTS: I omit one or two unimportant documents. Will you go to document dated 1 October 1943—the fifth or sixth document of Your Lordship’s file, Number D-547, dated 1 October 1943. It is to the OKW from Denmark, and quotes as follows:

“The Reich Plenipotentiary in Denmark has given the following
report to the Minister for Foreign Affairs:

“1) The arrest of the Jews will take place on the night of 1-2
October. Transportation from Zealand will be carried out by
ship....

“2) Should I receive no contrary instruction, I do not intend
allowing the Jewish action to be mentioned, either on the radio
or in the press”—and then

“3) ...I intend leaving the possessions of the evacuated Jews
undisturbed in order that the seizure of these possessions
cannot be imputed to be the reason or one of the reasons for the
action.”

Then you deal with the disadvantages—the writer does—and there is a question: “Does the Reichsführer SS know?” The answer:

“The Reichsführer SS knows, is in agreement,” and then a pencil note in Jodl’s handwriting, “The Führer agrees.” Is that in your writing?

JODL: Yes, that is my handwriting, but that refers only to the announcement of the release of the interned Danish soldiers.

MR. ROBERTS: I see.

JODL: Then it is important to note in this document that the commander in Denmark said that he did not intend having the property of the evacuated Jews disturbed. He said:

“...I intend leaving the possessions of the evacuated Jews
undisturbed....”

He had the executive power at that time.

MR. ROBERTS: Have you got the next document in the same bundle, 2d of October 1943, to OKW Operations Staff, from Denmark? I quote:

“Jewish action carried out in the night of the 1-2 October by
the German Police without incidents.”

And then the last document, dated 3 October 1943, to the OKW Operations Staff:

“According to the statement of the Reich Plenipotentiary, the
Reichsführer SS has ordered that the Reichsführer SS alone as
the person ordering the Jewish action is to receive the exact
figures on arrests.

“The Plenipotentiary has, therefore, given no figures to the
commander of the German troops in Denmark. 232 Jews have been
handed in by the Police via the collecting points set up by the
Watch Battalion, Copenhagen.”

What was the Watch Battalion?

JODL: I cannot say that at the moment; I do not know how it was composed. It might have been a unit of the Police; it might have been part of the Army; I cannot say with certainty. At any rate it was a unit which was used only for guard duties. But it is interesting that I wrote the remark: “Is a matter of complete indifference to us,” which proves that I was not interested in the affair, and refused to have any part in it.

MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I wonder. First of all, you said that the Watch Battalion might have been a part of the Wehrmacht. Were you...

JODL: That is not certain. I do not wish to dispute it definitely. There were also watch battalions of the Army, but it might equally well have been a watch unit of the Police. I cannot say it with certainty, but General Von Hannecken should have information about it.

MR. ROBERTS: But were your “decent German soldiers,” whom you mentioned yesterday, were they called upon to round up Jews who managed to get through the SS net?

JODL: No, it says here, “...it was carried through by the Police,” and I do not believe that any unit of the Wehrmacht concerned itself with deportation of Jews. I do not believe it; the Wehrmacht rejected that.

MR. ROBERTS: Dirty work, was it not?

JODL: I do not believe that it happened; I do not believe it.

MR. ROBERTS: Then your note: “...is a matter of complete indifference to us”—it was a matter of complete indifference to you how many Jews were deported, you did not care?

JODL: The note does not imply that, but it does prove that the matter was a political one, and with political matters I was not concerned. My attitude to the Jewish question has, I believe, been made clear already.

MR. ROBERTS: Where did the Jews go to, Auschwitz?

JODL: No. The French Prosecution read it here; these Jews of whom we are speaking now were taken to Theresienstadt; a few of the older people died there, but all of them were treated well, and received clothing and food. I had the same information, and this document of the Danish Government confirms it.

MR. ROBERTS: You believe that, do you?

JODL: Yes, I believe that, because the Danish Government confirms it here; it was confirmed in this court by the Prosecution itself.

MR. ROBERTS: Now I want to deal with one other topic, the topic of forced labor. Did you say in your speech—will you look at your notes of your speech, Pages 38 and 39, and it is Page 298 of Document Book 7, the big one, the paragraph, which begins on Page 38 in the witness’ copy. It has got a frame; I think it is a piece of paper headed “38.” I wonder if you can find it for him.

“This dilemma of manpower shortage has led to the idea of making
more thorough use of the manpower reserves in the territories
dominated by us. Right thinking and wrong thinking are mixed up
together. I believe that insofar as concerns labor, everything
has been done that could be done. Where this has not yet been
achieved, it appeared to be more favorable politically to
refrain from measures of compulsion, and secure in turn order
and economic aid. In my opinion, however, the time has now come
to take steps with remorseless vigor and resolution in Denmark,
Holland, France, and Belgium to compel thousands of idlers to
carry out the fortification work which is more important than
any other work. The necessary orders for this have already been
given.” (Document Number L-172, Exhibit Number USA-34.)

Do you remember them?

JODL: There is no doubt that I drafted this once.

MR. ROBERTS: Yes?

JODL: But that does not prove that I said it.

MR. ROBERTS: But had the necessary orders been given for the civilians in the occupied territories to work on the German fortification?

JODL: A compulsory labor order was issued in most countries, but I—you may not know it—I state under my oath that in Denmark and Holland, and also in Belgium, local firms, which recruited their own labor under the labor order, worked on these fortifications and that the populations of these areas were particularly glad about this, because the stronger their coast was fortified, the more certain were they that the invasion would not take place in their neighborhood. And, of course, they were greatly interested in preventing an invasion, which they knew would destroy everything. Though it sounds incredible, the local inhabitants did work on these fortifications, some of them with the greatest enthusiasm. That is a fact.

MR. ROBERTS: No, I did not stop you. But had the necessary orders been given—that is in the last sentence—to compel these people who did not want to, to compel them to work on fortification? I am not talking about the people who did want it, but the people who did not.

JODL: I understand. I did not know details of the procedure, as I did not concern myself with it, but I did know that compulsory labor orders had been issued in the occupied countries.

MR. ROBERTS: Very good. I will leave that, if you have said all you want to say. Will you look now, please, at a new document, Number 1383-PS, which I offer as GB-489. This is a report of a discussion of the current military situation, 12 December 1942, Pages 65 and 66, Jodl speaking:

“The military commander of France reports: The number of French
workers deported into the Reich since 1 June has now passed
220,000. There are in round figures 100,000 skilled laborers in
Berlin.”

How many of these 220,000 were volunteers, did you find out?

JODL: I cannot say that; I only quoted from a report which was appended to the situation report from France. That a large-scale exchange between prisoners of war and workers had been in progress has already been stated in detail by Sauckel.

MR. ROBERTS: I will leave that. I ask only two questions now on Sagan, Stalag Luft III.

You said yesterday that after the incident of the Sagan shooting, you thought Hitler was no longer “humane.” Did you say that?

JODL: I said yesterday, I had the impression then that he was disavowing all humane conceptions of right.

MR. ROBERTS: Had you thought that he was humane up to March of 1944?

JODL: Before this time, I personally knew of no action of his which could not be justified legally, at least under international law. All his previous orders, so far as I knew, could still be justified in some way. They were reprisals. But this act was not a reprisal.

MR. ROBERTS: This was—would you agree with me—the word is not too strong—that this was sheer murder of these 50 airmen?

JODL: I completely agree with you: I consider it sheer murder.

MR. ROBERTS: How could you honorable generals go on serving a murderer with unabated loyalty?

JODL: I did not serve with unabated loyalty after this event, but I did everything in my power to avoid further injustice.

MR. ROBERTS: Now I come to something else, the question of destruction in Norway. The document is 754-PS. It has not yet been exhibited. I offer it as GB-490. This document is signed by you, is it not?

JODL: I have known this document for a long time; it is signed by me.

MR. ROBERTS: Yes. Perhaps I might just read parts of it to the Tribunal. Dated 28 October 1944. It is from your staff, and the distribution is to the Army supreme command; commander-in-chief, Norway; to the Reich Commissioner, Norway; and the Navy.

“Because of the unwillingness of the northern Norwegian
population to evacuate voluntarily the Führer has agreed to the
proposals of the Reich Commissioner and has ordered that the
entire Norwegian population east of the Fjord of Lyngen be
evacuated by force in the interest of their own security, and
that all homes are to be burned to the ground or destroyed.

“The commander, Northern Finland, is responsible that the
Führer’s orders be carried out without consideration. Only by
this method can the Russians with strong forces, aided by these
homesteads and the population familiar with the terrain, be
prevented from following our withdrawal operations during the
winter and shortly appearing in front of our position in Lyngen.
This is not the place for sympathy for the civilian population.”

Lyngen is in the very north of Norway, is it not, on the west coast?

JODL: No, on the northern coast, where Finland is closest to the coast of the polar region and very near Norway.

MR. ROBERTS: Now, that order was carried out, according to the Norwegian report, UK-79, which the Tribunal will find as the last document in the small book, 7A, Page 26 of the Norwegian report, at the bottom of the page, Page 26:

“As a result of the advance of the Russian troops and the
retreat of the German Army in Finnmark, October-November 1944,
the Germans practiced the ‘scorched earth’ policy for the first
time in Norway. Orders were issued that the civilian population
was to evacuate, and that all houses, transport, and stores were
to be destroyed. As a result of this, about 30,000 houses were
damaged apart from 12,000 items of damage to chattels amounting
to 176 million kroner.”

And then, for photographs will the Tribunal turn to Pages 62 and 63; 62 is a copy of the German order, and 63 is a photograph of the ruins of a fishing village.

That was a cruel order, was it not, Witness?

JODL: No, not exactly. I should like to make a few explanatory remarks about it. Typically, as I have always said, this order was urged upon the Führer by the Reich Commissioner Terboven; not by the soldiers but much against their will.

Secondly, this order was not carried out, because otherwise the cities of Kirkenes, Hammerfest, and Alta would today no longer exist. All these cities are east of the Lyngen Fjord. In practice this order was moderated by our forces in agreement with me, and in conversations I had with my brother, who was the commanding general in that region—and whom I wanted to call as a witness since I expected this document to be produced—it was moderated to such an extent that, in fact, only what was necessary from a military point of view and could be justified under Article 23 of the Hague Regulations on Land Warfare was destroyed. Otherwise no city or house would be left today in northern Norway; and if you were to travel there, you would see that these cities are still standing, not destroyed.

The Armed Forces commander in Norway strongly protested against this attitude of Terboven, and I repeated these objections to the Führer in similarly strong terms, but nevertheless he demanded that this order be issued. We who retained our humanitarian sentiments carried out the order only insofar as it was absolutely necessary for military reasons. These are the facts.

MR. ROBERTS: I think you said, when you were interrogated, that your brother complained of this order, did he not?

JODL: Yes, quite, he was enraged by this decree.

MR. ROBERTS: Very well. I am now going to turn to two documents with regard to the treatment of the Norwegian civilian population.

They are in your Document Book 1, Pages 99 and 100—well, it begins at Page 98. These are regulations on the conduct during the occupation of Denmark and Norway. And there are instructions to the troops to treat the inhabitants politely and well and to behave themselves with due decorum. That is right, is it not?

JODL: Yes, that is correct.

MR. ROBERTS: And they must be told that they are entering Norway for the protection of the country and the safety of its inhabitants. That appears on Page 99. That is rather a euphemistic description of a sudden invasion with no declaration of war, is it not?

JODL: Yes, but at first it was carried out in a fairly peaceful manner on the whole.

MR. ROBERTS: From your point of view?

JODL: No, from the point of view of the Norwegians as well. The most extraordinary things...

MR. ROBERTS: Well, you know, we have seen—we can see in the Norwegian Government’s report photograph after photograph of these towns and villages bombed to ruins. Is that your idea of an orderly occupation?

JODL: What was bombed on the day of the landing is hardly worth mentioning; just a few coastal batteries and a few fortifications, but no cities. Villages were destroyed only later in the battle with the English brigade at Dombass and at Lillehammer, but nothing was destroyed when the country was first occupied. Then the Norwegians only stood at the quays, hands in their pockets, and looked on with great interest.

MR. ROBERTS: And naturally, Witness, if you could have landed without opposition and occupied the country without opposition, so much the better for you? That is obvious, is it not?

JODL: Yes, undoubtedly; that would have been even better; and the Norwegians would certainly have fared very well during the occupation if Terboven had not come.

MR. ROBERTS: Now, I want you to look at a part of that document which, quite properly, of course, was not read.

It is Appendix 5 which will be part, My Lord, I assume, of Exhibit AJ-14, the number which this document was given when it was put in in the examination-in-chief. But I am handing the Tribunal copies of Appendix 5, because it does not appear in the Jodl document book.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Well, now, Appendix 5, I can describe as the sting in the tail of this document:

“Guiding Principles for the Attitude of Troops in Occupied
Areas.

“Only”—I do not read the first few paragraphs—“Only in the
event of the civil population’s putting up a resistance or
behaving rebelliously can the following decisions be carried
out:

“1) If the civilian population offers resistance or if attacks
are to be feared, the arrest of hostages should, on principle,
be resorted to. Hostages should only be arrested on orders of
the commander of a regiment or a commander of equivalent rank.

“When accommodating and feeding hostages it should be borne in
mind that they are not imprisoned because of crimes. Hostages
and population are to be informed that the hostages will be shot
at any sign of hostile action. Previous sanction of the shooting
by the divisional commander must be obtained....”

Then:

“Armed resistance by the civilian population is to be crushed by
force of arms.”

The last sentence on that page:

“The death penalty will be imposed for violence of any kind
against the German Armed Forces. Immediate trials will be held
by a field court martial. The regimental commander can appoint
the summary court, composed of one captain, one sergeant, one
corporal, hear witnesses, draw up the sentence in writing. The
verdict will be the death penalty if guilty, otherwise
acquittal. The sentence will be executed immediately after
confirmation by the regimental commander.

“The following are to be considered as acts of violence:
Sabotage, destruction of our lines of communications, cutting of
telephone wires, demolitions, _et cetera_.” (Document Number
Jodl-37, Exhibit Number AJ-14.)

A little drastic, that, was it not? Only the death penalty?

JODL: These instructions are, word for word, in complete accord with our directives which, in times of peace, were laid down by the group of experts on international law in co-operation with the Foreign Office and with German professors of international law. It would have been well, if only these, our military precepts, our military court procedure laid down before we went to war, had been followed consistently everywhere. Our official directives laid down the question of hostages from the point of view of international law, and there is no doubt that under international law as applicable in the year 1939, the taking of hostages was admissible.

MR. ROBERTS: I suggest to you, as you raise that point, that nowhere in international law will you find the shooting of hostages legalized at all.

JODL: Then it is not with certainty prohibited anywhere in international law. I believe it is an open question. In our directives, even in the _Handbook on Tactics_, the concept of taking hostages had been laid down for years.

MR. ROBERTS: That may be so, and I do not want to argue with you about it. I suggest to you that the Hague Regulations protect the lives of civilians in occupied countries, unless they commit crimes, of course, and also prohibit collective punishment of the innocent.

If you do not want to say any more on that—I do not want to stop you if you do.

JODL: I can only summarize and say that every word here is in accord with the directives applicable in the German Army, and these directives were not illegal. But one would have to argue this problem with experts on international law.

MR. ROBERTS: Very good. Now, will you look at one other document dealing with Norway? It is D-582.

My Lord, it is a new document, and I offer it as GB-491.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Is that a document which comes from your office?

JODL: Yes. It originated with the Armed Forces Operations Staff, Quartermaster Section.

MR. ROBERTS: Do you know of it or not?

JODL: I cannot recall it, but there are some notes of mine on it, and so I undoubtedly saw the document.

MR. ROBERTS: Oh, yes. Where are the notes, Witness?

JODL: They are on the back page of the last teleprint message.

MR. ROBERTS: Oh, I see what you mean, yes. Well, will you take first of all—I had forgotten that you were getting more than one document. Will you take first of all the document dated the 2d of February 1945? I think it is the top one.

JODL: There are no remarks of mine on that document, so I cannot say with certainty whether I have seen it.

MR. ROBERTS: Just have a look at it and tell me whether you have seen it.

JODL: I do not think I have seen this. I do not—I have no recollection of having ever read it.

MR. ROBERTS: Well, then, I do not think it would be right to cross-examine you on that document.

My Lord, in that case, I would ask to withdraw it, and I will not put it in as an exhibit.

THE PRESIDENT: I think the defendant said that it was from his office.

MR. ROBERTS: Very well, then. I will—he did that.

[_Turning to the defendant._] You see what the document says, Defendant. It is dated 2 April 1945; it deals with...

JODL: The 2d of February.

MR. ROBERTS: It is the 2d of February. It deals with Reich Commissioner Terboven’s report to the Führer. It says:

“Those responsible for attempts to murder and to carry out
sabotage are the illegal elements within Norway with a
bourgeois-national majority and a communist minority, as well as
individual groups which came direct from England or Sweden....

“The bourgeois-national majority was opposed to the communist
minority in conception of sabotage and murder, and in particular
with regard to their extent and nature. This resistance has ...
become progressively weaker during the course of the past year.

“Official departments of the exile government, as for instance
the Crown Prince Olaf, as so-called Commander-in-Chief of the
Norwegian Armed Forces, and various others, have called upon the
population in speeches and orders to carry out sabotage. As a
result, there is a particularly good possibility here of
stamping every supporter of the exile government as an
intellectual instigator or accomplice.

“The aim of the coming measures must therefore be: a) to
strengthen the power and will to turn once more against sabotage
by threatening the very influential class of leaders in the
bourgeois camp; b) thereby to exacerbate more and more
antagonism between the bourgeois and Communists....”

And then, “Suggestions.” These are suggestions from your office, apparently:

“1. Particularly influential representatives of the explicitly
anti-German and anti-National Socialist class of industrialists
to be shot without trial on the accusation that they are
intellectual instigators or accomplices and stating that they
were convicted within the framework of police investigations.

“2. Similar men from the same circle to be sent to Germany to
work on fortifications.

“3. In cases where the circumstances are particularly suitable,
proceedings to be taken before the SS and Police Court, with the
execution of the sentence of death and suitable publicity.”

There are other suggestions which I need not read. And then the last paragraph but one:

“The Führer has agreed to these proposals only in part.
Especially in connection with efforts at protection against acts
of sabotage he has rejected taking hostages. He has rejected the
shooting of influential Norwegian representatives without
trial”—which is underlined in blue pencil.

Is that your blue pencil?

JODL: No, it is not mine.

MR. ROBERTS: You see, it is a remarkable document, Witness, because that is one instance where your department is suggesting a course of what I submit is brutal action, which for once the Führer rejects.

JODL: I believe, Mr. Roberts, you are somewhat mistaken. No proposal at all is being made here, but the Armed Forces Operations Staff is advising the military commander in Norway of what Reich Commissioner Terboven has told the Führer. He reported to the Führer first about the general situation and then be made the proposals mentioned here; and the Armed Forces Operations Staff which obviously had a representative at this meeting—I was not there—immediately advised the military commander of the handsome proposals of his friend Terboven.

That is what happened and these proposals went beyond—they were too much even for the Führer. But they were not our proposals.

MR. ROBERTS: Very good, Witness, I hear your answer, and the Court will consider it. It may be accepted. The document speaks for itself.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you read the first—the subject description “Orientation about Reich Commissioner Terboven’s Report to the Führer”?

MR. ROBERTS: Yes. That is the first—that is the subject, is it not, beginning, Witness, “Orientation about Reich Commissioner Terboven’s Report”? Whose orientation? Your department’s?

JODL: Orientation of the Mountain Army, that is, of General Böhm. General Böhm as commanding general of the Mountain Army, High Command 20, is advised of the report made to the Führer by Reich Commissioner Terboven, so that he would know what his friend Terboven was proposing. It is no more than information on what Terboven said to the Führer. I cannot tell you who was present; I was not there. The entire thing did not originate with me; I have never seen it.

MR. ROBERTS: Well now, the second document, this is from Terboven to Bormann on the 28th of October 1944. That is with regard to the evacuation east of Lyngen. I do not think I need read that. Then, the next document, maybe the second document, it is a teleprint of the 6th of April 1945, from Oberführer Fehlis, SS Oberführer to the Operations Staff, and it says:

“In accordance with the instructions of the OKW (WFSt) ... dated
29 March 1945, members of the Norwegian resistance movement who
appear in organized units and who are easily recognizable as
combatants by arm bands or other insignia are to be treated as
prisoners of war.”

And then the SS Oberführer says:

“I consider this order completely intolerable. I explained this
clearly to Lieutenant Colonel Hass and Major Benze from the
Armed Forces Operations Staff, who stayed here. There have been
isolated appearances of uniformed groups in Norway, but there
has been no fighting as yet. Inquiries were made at the defense
headquarters in London as to whether armed resistance should be
offered in case of German or Norwegian police action. As yet no
partisan or other fighting in Norway. On one occasion, captured
members of the military organization in uniform claimed the
right to be treated as prisoners of war. If this demand were met
at the present moment, the result would be that active fighting
on the part of the military organization would be set going.
Please obtain cancellation of the order of the Armed Forces
Operations Staff.”

And you, you voted for the exemption being removed, did you not?

“The objection is justified. Norway has a government in its own
country. Whoever fights against it in the country is a rebel. It
is another question in the case of Norwegian troops who were
taken to England and from there brought into the struggle under
England’s order.”

That is your note?

JODL: Yes.

MR. ROBERTS: And you stick to that, do you? I mean you—that is your opinion today?

JODL: Yes, indeed. I am of the opinion, from the point of view of international law, that members of a resistance movement against their own Norwegian government are certainly not to be considered as normal troops but as constituting an uprising, a rebellion. But if Norwegian troops come to Norway from England, then they are regular soldiers. And that, today, is still my opinion on the basis of international law.

MR. ROBERTS: What do you call their own Norwegian government, the puppet government which was set up by the Germans?

JODL: In any event, there was the government of Quisling at the time; and in any event, speaking now from the point of view of international law, we were occupying the country, and therefore, according to international law, were justified in issuing laws and enforcing them. That is accepted under international law, and resistance against it has been considered all over the world as rebellion. The same applies to us in Germany today.

MR. ROBERTS: Now, I want to deal quite shortly with three other matters, and then I have finished. I want to deal first of all with what you have said with regard to Hitler’s suggestion to revoke the Geneva Convention. You say you were instrumental in preventing him from renouncing that Convention?

JODL: Yes.

MR. ROBERTS: Would you look at a document which has already been put in, C-158, which is GB-209. I think you have loose copies for it; it is not in a document book. This was put in with regard to the case against Dönitz. It is headed, “Extracts from Minutes of the Hitler Conference on the 19th of February 1945...”:

“The Commander-in-Chief of the Navy was present on 19 February
1945.

“The Führer is considering whether or not Germany should
renounce the Geneva Convention. As not only the Russians but
also the Western Powers are violating international law by their
actions against the defenseless population and the residential
districts, it appears expedient to adopt the same course in
order to show the enemy that we are determined to fight with
every means for our existence, and also to urge our people to
resist to the utmost. The Führer orders the Commander-in-Chief
of the Navy to consider the pros and cons and to state his own
opinion.”

Then, further down, My Lord—Commander-in-Chief of the Navy on the Hitler conference of the 20th of February:

“The Commander-in-Chief of the Navy informed Generaloberst Jodl,
Chief of the Armed Forces Operations Staff, and the
representative of the Foreign Office at the Führer’s
headquarters, Ambassador Hewel, of his views with regard to
Germany’s possible renunciation of the Geneva Convention. From a
military standpoint there are no grounds for this step as far as
the conduct of the war at sea is concerned. On the contrary, the
disadvantages outweigh the advantages; even from a general
standpoint it appears to the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy that
this measure would bring no advantages. It would be better to
carry out the measures considered necessary without warning and
at all costs to save face with the world. The Chief of the Armed
Forces Operations Staff and Ambassador Hewel are in full
agreement.”

You were saying there, were you not, that you agreed with Raeder when he said, “Break the Geneva Convention, but do not tell the world that we are doing so.”

JODL: Grossadmiral Dönitz.

MR. ROBERTS: Dönitz, right. I beg your pardon. That is what you were saying, is it not?

JODL: No. The whole thing, as I have said, is a notice of Admiral Wagner on a conference from which one can gather only that Grossadmiral Dönitz disapproved, and that he is supposed to have made this remark at the end. I can hardly account for that remark today, because the only reason given to us by the Führer at that time was that the tremendous number of German soldiers in the West must be prevented from deserting as a consequence of enemy propaganda about good treatment. I cannot explain this remark, and in my written draft which I submitted to the Führer and which contains the attitude of the Navy that sentence was not included, but only advantages and disadvantages were compared. The disadvantages were overwhelming; the whole thing was completely impracticable and impossible, and so it was not carried out. More I cannot say. Witnesses will confirm my statement.

MR. ROBERTS: I am now going to put to you your own Document D-606.

My Lord, that has not yet been exhibited. I offer it as 492-GB. GB-492.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Now that is signed by you, is it not? It deals with the subject of the breach of the Geneva Convention. If you would say first if it is signed by you? Is it signed by you? Please answer my question: Is it signed by you?

JODL: Yes; my signature is at the end.

MR. ROBERTS: Well, that is where one usually finds the signature. Now, it is dated 21 February 1945, and it is written on your letterhead notepaper. And then, “Notes on report submitted to the Führer on 23 February through the Chief of the Operations Staff. The following questions were to be examined.”

My Lord, I do not propose to read it all, or anything like that. If the witness would follow me, I will read anything he wants. But it is a discussion as to the various advantages and disadvantages of repudiating the various international agreements, and I think I am not doing the witness an injustice if I say from a utilitarian rather than a moral point of view.

JODL: Yes, quite correct. For my only aim was to succeed with the Führer, and this document was worded accordingly.

MR. ROBERTS: Well, now, I want to read the last paragraph.

My Lord, it is the last page but one of Your Lordship’s document, right at the bottom:

“C. Proposal of the OKW:

“At the present moment the disadvantages of repudiating the
agreements which have been kept up to now in any case outweigh
the advantages by far.

“Just as it was a mistake in 1914 that we ourselves solemnly
declared war on all the states which had for a long time wanted
to wage war on us, and through this took the whole guilt of the
war on our shoulders before the outside world, and just as it
was a mistake to admit that the necessary”—note the word
“necessary”—“passage through Belgium in 1914 was our own fault,
so it would be a mistake now to repudiate openly the obligations
of international law which we accepted and thereby to stand
again as the guilty party before the outside world.

“Adherence to the accepted obligations does not demand in any
way that we should have to impose on ourselves any limitations
which will interfere with the conduct of the war. For instance,
if the British sink a hospital ship, this must be used for
propaganda purposes, as has been done to date. That, of course,
in no way prevents our sinking an English hospital ship at once
as a reprisal and then expressing our regret that it was a
mistake in the same manner as the British do.”

That is not very honorable, is it?

JODL: I can only say in reply that this was the sole method which achieved success with the Führer, and by its use success was, in fact, achieved. If I had come to him with moral or purely legal arguments, he would have said, “Leave me alone with this foolish talk,” and he would have proceeded with the renunciation of the Convention; but these things compelled him to reconsider the step and, in consequence, he did not carry it through.

You must after all grant me that at the end of 5½ years I knew best how to achieve good results with him and avoid bad ones. My aim was to achieve success, and I achieved it.

MR. ROBERTS: But, you see, you were deploring it there, the fact that you told the world the truth in 1914. In 1914 you said that you regarded treaties only as a scrap of paper. You are saying now, “What a pity we told the world the truth in 1914. We ought to have told them something untrue, and then we should have, possibly, had a better world reputation.”

JODL: That was an argument which the Führer used frequently. If one repeated his arguments in that form again and again he was more inclined to read and accept one’s suggestions. One had to prevent his flinging our proposals to the ground in a fit of rage and immediately decreeing renunciation. That was the approach one had to follow. If one cannot do good openly, it is better to do it in a roundabout way than not at all.

MR. ROBERTS: I am now coming to quite another point: Were you an admirer of the principles of the Nazi Party?

JODL: No.

MR. ROBERTS: Were you of the opinion that there was a successful fusion between the Nazi Party and the Wehrmacht, which brought about the rejuvenation, the resurrection of Germany after 1933?

JODL: It would have happened, and I hoped for a long time that it would happen; indeed, on the whole the relationship improved somewhat in the course of the years and especially during the war. At first, it was poor, very poor.

MR. ROBERTS: You wrote—please, I am reading now from your speech, L-172. It is Page 290 of Document Book 7, and it is Page 6 of your lecture notes, Page 290 of Document Book 7 and 203 of the German:

“The fact that the National Socialist movement in its struggle
for internal power was the preparatory stage to the outer
liberation from the shackles of the dictate of Versailles I need
not enlarge upon in this circle. I should like, however, to
mention how clearly all thoughtful regular soldiers realize what
an important part has been played by the National Socialist
movement in reawakening the will to fight, in nurturing fighting
strength, and in rearming the German people. Despite all its
inherent virtues this small Reichswehr could never have been
able to cope with this task, if only because of its restricted
radius of action. Indeed, what the Führer aimed at and has
luckily been successful in bringing about was a fusion of these
two forces.”

Did that represent your honest opinion or not?

JODL: Yes, that is historical truth, indisputable historical truth. The Movement did bring that about; that is certain.

MR. ROBERTS: Very good. Then, I now want to put to you the last document but one that I put in.

My Lord, it has not been exhibited. It is 1808-PS. I offer it as GB-493.

[_Turning to the defendant._] You made a speech, did you not, after the attempt on Hitler’s life, to your staff? And are these the notes of your speech on 24 July?

JODL: I have never seen this document before; I am seeing it for the first time now. I did not know that any notes were made about the speech.

MR. ROBERTS: Well, let us go by stages. Did you make a speech to your staff shortly after the attempt on Hitler’s life—on 24 July 1944?

JODL: Yes, even while my head was still bandaged.

MR. ROBERTS: Secondly, is that document which you have in front of you, is that a document which comes from your files? Look at the cover, if necessary.

JODL: I assume so. It is headed: “Armed Forces Operations Staff War Diary.” Most likely these are notes of Major Schramm.

MR. ROBERTS: Let me begin at the beginning of those notes. Just see if you can remember what you said. Did you begin by saying: “The 20th of July was the blackest day which German history has seen as yet, and will probably remain so for all times”?

JODL: Yes, that is quite possible.

MR. ROBERTS: Why was it such a black day for Germany? Because somebody tried to assassinate a man whom you now admit was a murderer?

JODL: Should I—at a moment when I am to be blown up in a cowardly, insidious manner by one of my own comrades, together with many opponents of the regime—should I perhaps approve of it all? That was to me the worst thing that happened. If the man with a pistol in his hand had shot the Führer and had then given himself up, it would have been entirely different. But these tactics I considered most repulsive to any officer. I spoke under the impression of those events, which are actually among the worst I know, and I maintain today what I said then.

MR. ROBERTS: I do not want to argue with you, but do you think it is any more dastardly than shooting those 50 American soldiers who landed in the north of Italy to destroy a military target, shooting them like dogs?

JODL: That also was murder, undoubtedly. But it is not the task of a soldier to be the judge of his commander-in-chief. May history or the Almighty do that.

MR. ROBERTS: Very good. I have only about three more questions to ask you.

My Lord, I am going to read from Page 2 of that document, about 10 lines from the top. It begins, “The Führer...”

[_Turning to the defendant._] If I read this slowly, perhaps see if you can recognize it.

“The Führer ignored this and other things, and now the would-be
assassins wished to do away with him, as a ‘despot’.”

Do you remember saying that or something like that? Can you find the place?

“The Führer ignored this and other things, and now the would-be
assassins wished to eliminate him as a ‘despot’.”

Do you remember that?

“And yet, they themselves experienced how the Führer did not
come to power by force, but borne up by the love of the German
people.”

Do you remember saying that?

JODL: Yes, and that is true. He came to power, borne up by the love of the German people. I had tremendous experiences in that respect. He was almost overwhelmed by this love of the people and of the soldiers.

MR. ROBERTS: Borne up by—I beg your pardon, have you finished? I did not mean to interrupt you.

JODL: Yes, I have dealt with that point.

MR. ROBERTS: Borne up by the love of the German people. You have forgotten the SS, the Gestapo, and the concentration camps for political opponents, have you not?

JODL: I have told you how unfortunately little I knew of all these things, almost nothing. Of course, with a knowledge of these things, all this takes a different aspect.

MR. ROBERTS: I take your answer, and I put my last document to you.

My Lord, this is a new document, 1776-PS; I offer it as GB-494.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Just have a look; see if it is signed by you, will you?

JODL: Yes.

MR. ROBERTS: So it is signed by you. Now, you have told this Court that you were opposed to terror attacks. Just see what this document says. Now, note the date first, the 30th of June 1940. That is just after the temporary fall of France?

“Chief WFA.

“The Continuation of the War against England.

“If political means are without results, England’s will to
resist must be broken by force:

“a) by making war against the English mother country.

“b) by extending the war on the periphery.

“Regarding Point a) there are three possibilities:

“1) Siege....

“2) Terror attacks against English centers of population.

“3) Landing of troops....”