Chapter XX: Book 4: , Page 28 of the English book, and just look at Captain (11)

VON SCHIRACH: That is not correct. That is wrong. I am now talking only of the National Socialist University Movement; I will come back to this point later.

Now I was leader of the National Socialist University Movement, and I reorganized this movement. I began my work as a speaker. In 1931 I was...

THE PRESIDENT: Surely it is sufficient that he became the leader. It really does not matter very much to us whether he was elected or not.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I am making every effort all the time to abbreviate this speech. But perhaps I may ask just one more question with reference to this subject.

Witness, then in 1931 you were, as far as I know, elected to the presidency of the General Congress of Austrian and German Students, comprising all parties, and elected, I think, unanimously. Is that correct?

VON SCHIRACH: It is not correct.

DR. SAUTER: Then explain briefly, Herr Von Schirach.

VON SCHIRACH: That is not correct. At the meeting of the General German Students Congress in 1931, at which all German students and all Austrian students and Sudeten-German students were represented, one of my collaborators whom I had suggested as leader was unanimously elected head of the entire student group. This was a very important affair for the youth and for the Party. Two years before the seizure of power the entire academic youth had unanimously given their vote to a National Socialist. After this students’ rally at Graz, I had with Hitler a...

THE PRESIDENT: I think this would be a convenient time to adjourn.

DR. SAUTER: Very well.

[_A recess was taken._]

DR. SAUTER: Witness, before the recess we stopped at the fact that in 1929 you had been elected the leader of the academic youth. Two years later, Hitler made you Reich Youth Leader. How did that appointment come about?

VON SCHIRACH: After the student meeting at Graz in 1931, the success of which was very surprising to Hitler, I had a conference with him. In the course of that meeting, Hitler mentioned a conversation we had had previously. At that time he had asked me how it came about that the National Socialist University Movement was developing so quickly, whereas the other National Socialist organizations lagged behind in their development.

I told him at that time that one cannot lead youth organizations as an appendix of a political party; youth has to be led by youth, and I developed for him the idea of a youth state, that idea which had come to me from experiencing the school community, the school state. And thereupon in 1931 Hitler asked me whether I would like to assume the leadership of the National Socialist Youth Organization. This included youth cells, then the Hitler Youth and the National Socialist Students Organization, which also was in existence at that time. Several men had already tried their hand at the leadership of these organizations: the former Oberstführer SA Leader Pfeffer, the Reichsleiter Buch, actually without much result.

I agreed and became then Reich Youth Leader of the NSDAP, temporarily a member of the staff of the Oberst SA Leader Röhm. In that position, as Reich Youth Leader of the NSDAP in the staff of Röhm, I had the rank of an SA Gruppenführer and kept that rank also when, half a year later, I became independent in my position. That explains also the fact that I am an SA Obergruppenführer. I got that rank many years later, _honoris causa_. However, I did not possess an SA uniform—even after 1933.

DR. SAUTER: Then in 1931 you became Reich Youth Leader of the NSDAP?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: That, of course, was a Party office?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Then in 1932 you became Reichsleiter? At that time you were 25 years old. How did that come about?

VON SCHIRACH: I have already said that I had expressed the opinion to Hitler that youth could not be the appendix of another organization, but youth had to be independent; it had to lead itself; it had to become independent; and it was in fulfillment of a promise which Hitler had already given me that, half a year later, I became an independent Reichsleiter.

DR. SAUTER: Independent Reichsleiter, so that you were subordinate directly to the Party leader Hitler?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: With what material means was that youth organization created at that time?

VON SCHIRACH: With the means furnished by the young people themselves.

DR. SAUTER: And how were those funds raised? By collections?

VON SCHIRACH: The boys and girls paid membership fees. A part of these membership fees was kept at the so-called district leadership offices, which corresponded to the Gauleitung in the Party or to the SA Gruppenführung in the SA. Another part went to the Reich Youth Leader. The Hitler Youth financed its organization with its own means.

DR. SAUTER: Then, I am interested in the following: Did the Hitler Youth, which you created and which was given Hitler’s name, get its importance only after the seizure of power and by the seizure of power only, or what was the previous size of this youth organization which you created?

VON SCHIRACH: Before the seizure of power, in 1932 the Hitler Youth was already the largest youth movement of Germany. I should like to add here that the individual National Socialist youth organizations which I found when I took over my office as Reich Youth Leader were merged by me into one large unified youth movement. This youth movement was the strongest youth movement of Germany, long before we came to power.

On 2 October 1932, the Hitler Youth held a meeting at Potsdam. At that meeting more than 100,000 youth from all over the Reich met without the Party’s providing a single pfennig. The means were contributed by the young people themselves. Solely from the number of the participants, it can be seen that that was the largest youth movement.

DR. SAUTER: That was, therefore, several months before the seizure of power, and at that time already more than 100,000 participants were at that rally at Potsdam?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: The Prosecution has made the accusation, Witness, that later, after the seizure of power—I believe in February 1933—you took over the Reich Committee of German Youth Organizations. Is that correct, and against whom was that action directed?

VON SCHIRACH: That is correct. The Reich Committee of Youth Organizations was practically no more than a statistical office which was subordinate to the Reich Minister of the Interior. That office was managed by a retired general, General Vogt, who later became one of my ablest assistants. The taking over of that Reich Committee was a revolutionary act, a measure which youth carried out for youth, for from that day on dates the realization of the idea of the Youth State within the State. I cannot say any more about that.

DR. SAUTER: The Prosecution further accuses you, Witness, of having dissolved the so-called “Grossdeutscher Bund” in 1933, that is, after the seizure of power. What was the Grossdeutscher Bund, and why did you dissolve it?

VON SCHIRACH: The Grossdeutscher Bund was a youth organization, or rather a union of youth organizations, with pan-German tendencies.

I am surprised, therefore, that the Prosecution has made the dissolution of that organization an accusation at all.

DR. SAUTER: Many members of this Grossdeutscher Bund were National Socialists. There was no very essential difference between some of the youth groups associated in that organization and the Hitler Youth. Is that correct?

VON SCHIRACH: I wanted youth to be united, and the Grossdeutscher Bund wanted to continue a certain separate existence. I objected to that, and there was agitated public controversy between Admiral Von Trotha, the leader of the Grossdeutscher Bund and me, and in the end the Grossdeutscher Bund was incorporated into our youth organization. I do not recall exactly whether I banned the organization formally; I know only that the members came to me, and that between Admiral Von Trotha and me a discussion took place, a reconciliation. Admiral Von Trotha until his death was one of the warmest sponsors of my work.

DR. SAUTER: How did the suppression of the Marxist youth organization come about?

VON SCHIRACH: I believe that the suppression of the Marxist youth organizations, if I remember correctly, came about in connection with the suppression of trade unions. I have no exact documents any more regarding that. But at any rate, from the legal point of view, I was not authorized in 1933 to order a suppression of that kind. The Minister of the Interior would have had to do that. I had the right to ban youth organizations, _de jure_, only after 1 December 1936. That the Marxist youth organizations had to disappear was a foregone conclusion for me, and in speaking about this suppression order as such, I can only say that the German working youth found the realization of its socialistic ideas, not under the Marxist governments of the Weimar Republic, but in the community of the Hitler Youth.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, at first you were Reich Führer of the NSDAP; that was a Party office. And after the seizure of power, you became Youth Leader of the German Reich; that was a State office. On the basis of this State or national office, did you also have jurisdiction over and responsibility for the school system, for the elementary schools, for instance?

VON SCHIRACH: For the school system in Germany the Reich Minister for Science, Education, and Culture was the only authority. My field was education outside the schools, along with the home and the school, as it says in the law of 1 December 1936. However, I had some schools of my own, the so-called Adolf Hitler Schools, which were not under national supervision. They were creations of a later period. And during the war, through the Child Evacuation Program that is, the organization by which we took care of evacuating the young people from the big cities endangered by bombing—I was in charge of education within the camps where these children were housed. But on the whole I have to answer the question about competence for the school system in Germany in the negative.

DR. SAUTER: This youth which you had to educate outside of the schools was called the Hitler Youth, the HJ.

Was membership in the Hitler Youth compulsory or voluntary?

VON SCHIRACH: The membership in the Hitler Youth was voluntary until 1936. In 1936 the law already mentioned concerning the HJ was issued which made all the German youth members of the HJ. The stipulations for the carrying out of that law, however, were issued only in March 1939, and only during the war, in May 1940, was the thought of carrying out a German youth draft considered within the Reich Youth Leadership and discussed publicly. May I point out that my Deputy Lauterbacher, at the time when I was at the front, stated in a public meeting—I believe at Frankfurt in 1940—that now, after 97 percent of the youngest age group of youth had volunteered for the Hitler Youth, it would be necessary to draft the remaining 3 percent by a youth draft.

DR. SAUTER: In this connection, Mr. President, may I refer to two documents of the document book Schirach. That is Number Schirach-51.

THE PRESIDENT: I did not quite understand what the defendant said. He said that the membership was voluntary until 1936, that the HJ Law was then passed, and something to the effect that the execution of the law was not published until 1939. Was that what he said?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, that is correct. Until 1936—if I may explain that, Mr. President—membership in the Hitler Youth was absolutely voluntary. Then in 1936 the HJ Law was issued, which provided that boys and girls had to belong to the Hitler Youth. But the stipulations for its execution were issued by the defendant only in 1939 so that, in practice, until 1939 the membership was nevertheless on a voluntary basis.

THE PRESIDENT: Is that right, Defendant?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, that is right.

DR. SAUTER: And these facts which I have just presented, Mr. President, can also be seen from two documents of the document book Schirach, Number Schirach-51, on Page 91, and Number Schirach-52 on Page 92. In the latter document...

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Sauter, I accept it from you and from the defendant. I only wanted to understand it. You can go on.

DR. SAUTER: And in the second document mention is also made of the 97 percent which the defendant has said had voluntarily joined the HJ, so that now there were only 3 percent missing. May I continue:

[_Turning to the witness._] Witness, what was the attitude of the parents of the children on the question of whether the children should join the HJ or not? What did the parents say?

VON SCHIRACH: There were, of course, parents who did not like to have their children join the HJ. Whenever I made one of my radio speeches to the parents or to the youth, many hundreds of parents sent me letters. Among these letters, there were many in which the parents voiced their objections to the HJ, or expressed their dislike for it. I always considered that a special proof of the confidence which the parents had in me. I should like to say here that never, when parents restrained their children from joining, have I exerted any compulsion or put them under pressure of any kind. In doing that I would have lost all the confidence placed in me by the parents of Germany. That confidence was the basis of my entire educational work.

I believe that on this occasion I have to say also that the concept that any youth organization can be established and carried on, and successfully carried on, by coercing youth, is absolutely false.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, did youngsters who did not join the Hitler Youth suffer any disadvantage for that reason?

VON SCHIRACH: Youngsters who did not join the Hitler Youth were at a disadvantage in that they could not take part in our camping, in our trips, in our sporting meets. They were in a certain sense outsiders of the youth life, and there was a danger that they might become hypochondriacs.

DR. SAUTER: But were there not certain professions in which membership in the HJ was a prerequisite for working in those professions?

VON SCHIRACH: Of course.

DR. SAUTER: What were the professions?

VON SCHIRACH: For instance, the profession of teacher. It is quite clear that a teacher cannot educate youth unless he himself knows the life of that youth, and so we demanded that the young teachers, that is those in training to teach, had to go through the HJ. The junior teacher had to be familiar with the ways of life of the pupils who were under his supervision.

DR. SAUTER: But there were only a few such professions, whereas for other professions membership in the HJ was not a prerequisite for admission. Or what was the situation?

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot answer that in detail. I believe that a discussion about that is not even possible, because the entire youth was in the Hitler Youth.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, you know that the Prosecution has also accused the defendants of having advocated the Führer Principle. Therefore, I ask you:

Was the Führer Principle also valid in the HJ, and in what form was it carried out in the HJ? I should like to remind you that I mean that kind of Führer Principle of which we have heard in the testimony.

VON SCHIRACH: Of course, the HJ was built up on the Führer Principle; only the entire form of leadership of youth differed basically from that of other National Socialist organizations. For instance, we had the custom in youth leadership of discussing frankly all questions of interest to us. There were lively debates at our district leader meetings. I myself educated my assistants even in a spirit of contradiction. Of course, once we had debated a measure and I had then given an order or a directive, that ended the debate. The youth leaders—that is the young boy and girl leaders—through years of working together and in serving the common purpose, had become a unity of many thousands. They had become friends. It is evident that in a group of that kind the carrying out of orders and directives takes place in ways entirely different from those in a military organization or in any other political organization.

DR. SAUTER: Witness...

VON SCHIRACH: May I add something?

Leadership based on natural authority such as we had in the youth organization is something which is not alien to youth at all. Such leadership in the youth organization never degenerated into dictatorship.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, you have been accused of training the youth in a military way, and in that connection, the fact has been pointed out that your HJ wore a uniform. Is that correct, and why did the HJ wear a uniform?

VON SCHIRACH: I have stated my opinion about that in many instances. I believe there are also documents to illustrate it. I have always described the uniform of the HJ as the dress of comradeship. The uniform was the symbol of a community without class distinctions. The worker’s boy wore the same garb as the son of the university professor. The girl from the wealthy family wore the same garb as the child of the day laborer. Hence the uniform. This uniform did not have any military significance whatsoever.

DR. SAUTER: In that connection, Mr. President, may I ask you to take judicial notice of Document Number Schirach-55 of the document book Schirach, then of Numbers Schirach-55a and 117, where the Defendant Von Schirach, many years ago, expressed in writing and repeatedly the same trends of thought which he is expressing today.

I should only like to ask, Mr. President, for permission to correct an error in Document 55, on Page 98. Rather far down, under the heading “Page 77,” is a quotation from a book by Schirach. There it says:

“Even the son of the millionaire has no other power...”

I do not know whether you have found the passage. It is on Page 77 of the book quoted, and Page 98 of the document book, Number Schirach-55. There is a quotation near the bottom of the page:

“Even the son of the millionaire has no other power...” It should read “dress,” not “power.” The German word “Macht”, is an error, and should be the word “Tracht.”

So I ask now to have the word “Macht” (power), changed to the word “Tracht” (dress).

Witness, I shall then continue with the interrogation. You have been accused of having prepared youth for the war, psychologically and pedagogically. You are alleged to have participated in a conspiracy for that purpose, a conspiracy by which the National Socialist movement acquired total power in Germany, and finally planned and carried out aggressive wars. What can you say about that?

VON SCHIRACH: I did not participate in any conspiracy. I cannot consider it participation in a conspiracy if I joined the National Socialist Party. The program of that party had been approved; it had been published. The Party was authorized to take part in elections. Hitler had not said—neither he nor any of his collaborators—“I want to assume power by a _coup d’état_.” Again and again he stated in public, not only once but a hundred times: “I want to overcome this parliamentary system by legal means, because it is leading us, year by year, deeper into misery.” And I myself as the youngest deputy of the Reichstag of the Republic told my 60,000 constituents similar things in electoral campaigns.

There was nothing there which could prove the fact of a conspiracy, nothing which was discussed behind closed doors. What we wanted we acknowledged frankly before the nation, and so far as printed paper is read around the globe, everyone abroad could have been informed also about our aims and purposes.

As far as preparation for war is concerned, I must state that I did not take part in any conferences or issuing of orders which would indicate preparation for an aggressive war. I believe that can be seen from the proceedings in this Court up to now.

I can state only that I did not participate in a conspiracy. I do not believe either that there was a conspiracy; the thought of conspiracy is in contradiction to the idea of dictatorship. A dictatorship does not conspire; a dictatorship commands.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, what did the leadership of the Hitler Youth do to prepare the youth for war and to train it for warlike purposes?

VON SCHIRACH: Before I answer that question, I believe I will have to explain briefly the difference between military and premilitary training.

Military training, in my opinion, is all training with weapons of war, and all training which is conducted by military personnel, that is, by officers, with and without weapons of war. Premilitary education—premilitary training is, in the widest sense, all training which comes before the time of military service; in particular cases it is a special preparation for military service. We, in the Hitler Youth, were opponents of any military drills for youth. We disliked such drills as not youthful. I am not giving my personal opinion here, but the opinion of thousands of my co-workers.

It is a fact that I rejected the Wehrjugend (the Youth Defense Groups), which had formerly existed in Germany, and did not allow any continuation of Wehrjugend work within the HJ. I had always been strongly opposed to any soldier-playing in a youth organization. With all my high esteem for the profession of an officer, I still do not consider an officer capable of leading youth because in some way or other, he will always apply the tone of the drill field and the forms of military leadership to youth.

That is the reason why I did not have any officers as my assistants in the Hitler Youth. Just on account of my refusal to use officers as youth leaders, I was severely criticized by the Wehrmacht on occasion. I should like to stress that that did not come from the OKW; Field Martial Keitel, especially, had a great deal of understanding for my ideas. However, in the Wehrmacht, now and again, criticism was heard on account of the general attitude of opposition of the Youth Leadership corps toward having officers used as leaders of a youth organization. The principle of “youth leading youth” was never broken in Germany.

If I am now to answer definitively the question of whether the youth was prepared for the war and whether it was trained in a military sense, I shall have to say, in conclusion, that the main efforts of all youth work in Germany culminated in trade competition, in the trade schools, in camping, and competition in sports. Physical training, which perhaps in some way could be considered a preparation for military service, took only a very small part of our time.

I should like to give as an example here: A Gebiet, or district, of the Hitler Youth, for instance the Gebiet of Hessen-Nassau which is about the same as a Gau in the Party, contributed from its funds in 1939 as follows: For hikes and camping, 9/20; for cultural work, 3/20; for sports and physical training, 3/20; for the Land Service (Landdienst), and other tasks and for the offices, 5/20.

The same area spent, in 1944—that is, 1 year before the end of the war—for cultural work, 4/20; for sports and defense training, 5/20; for Landdienst and other tasks, 6/20; and for the evacuation of children to the country, 5/20.

In that connection I should like to mention briefly that the same area, in the time from 1936 until 1943, made no expenditures for racial-political education; in 1944 there was an entry of 20 marks under the heading of racial-political education for the acquisition of a picture book about hereditary and venereal diseases. However, in that same district, in one single town, during the same time, 200,000 marks were given to have youth visit the theaters.

The question concerning premilitary or military education cannot be answered by me without describing small-caliber shooting practice. Small-caliber firing was a sport among the German youth. It was practiced on the lines laid down in the international rules for sport shooting. Small-caliber shooting, according to Article 177 of the Treaty of Versailles, was not prohibited. It states expressly in that article of the treaty that rifle clubs, sporting, and hiking organizations are forbidden to train their members in the handling and use of war weapons. The small-caliber rifle, however, is not a war weapon. For our sport shooting we used a rifle similar to the American 22-caliber. It was used with the 22-caliber Flobert cartridge for short or long distance.

I should like to say here that our entire marksmanship training and other so-called premilitary training have been collected in a manual entitled “HJ Service.” That book was printed and sold not only in Germany but was also available abroad.

The British Board of Education in 1938 passed judgment on that book, in the educational pamphlet, Number 109. With the permission of the Tribunal, I should like to quote briefly what was said about it in this educational pamphlet. I quote in English:

“It cannot fairly be said to be in essence a more militaristic
work than any thoroughgoing, exhaustive, and comprehensive
manual of Boy Scout training would be. Some forty pages are, to
be sure, devoted to the theory and practice of shooting
small-bore rifle and air gun, but there is nothing in them to
which exception can reasonably be taken, and the worst that one
can say of them is that they may be confidently recommended to
the notice of any Boy Scout wishing to qualify for his
marksmanship badge.”

As to the mental attitude of the Hitler Youth, I can only say that it was definitely not militaristic.

DR. SAUTER: We will perhaps come back to that later with another question. You say the Hitler Youth had been trained with Flobert rifles, or small-caliber rifles, as they are also called. Was the Hitler Youth also trained with infantry rifles, or even machine guns or machine pistols?

VON SCHIRACH: Certainly not.

DR. SAUTER: Not at all?

VON SCHIRACH: Not a single German boy, until the war, had been trained with a war weapon, a military weapon, be it an infantry rifle, machine gun, or infantry gun; nor with hand grenades in any form.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in the document book Schirach are several documents which will show that the attitude of the Defendant Von Schirach concerning the question of military or premilitary education of the Hitler Youth was exactly the same as he has stated it today, particularly, that he expressed himself against any military drill, barracks language, and all such things.

These are mainly documents in the document book Schirach: 55, then 122, 123, 127, 127a, 128, and 131. I ask you to take judicial notice of these documents. They contain, on the whole, the same statements which Herr Schirach has made briefly already.

Herr Von Schirach, in connection with the so-called military training of the youth, I should like to know what influence the SA had on the training of youth?

VON SCHIRACH: None at all. The SA tried to have an influence on the education and training of youth.

DR. SAUTER: In what way?

VON SCHIRACH: It was in January of 1939. At that time I was in Dresden, where I arranged a performance which presented modern gymnastics for girls. I still remember it distinctly. While I was there, a newspaper was shown to me which carried a decree by Hitler, according to which the two oldest age groups of the Hitler Youth were to receive premilitary training from the SA. I protested against that at once and after my return to Berlin I succeeded not in having the decree withdrawn for that could not be done for reasons of prestige since Hitler’s name was on it—but invalidated as far as the youth were concerned.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, that incident is contained in a document in the document book Schirach, Number Schirach-132. That is a statement from _Das Archiv_, a semiofficial news periodical. I should like to refer to that as evidence; and in regard to the question of training in shooting I should like to ask the defendant one more question.

What part of the entire training did the shooting practice have in the HJ? Was it a very essential part or the essential part?

VON SCHIRACH: Unfortunately, I do not have the documentary material here which would enable me to answer that exactly. But at any rate, it was not an essential part of the training in the HJ.

DR. SAUTER: Did that marksmanship training go any further, according to your experiences and observations, than the marksmanship training of youth in other nations?

VON SCHIRACH: The marksmanship training of youth in other nations went much further, much beyond that which we had in Germany.

DR. SAUTER: Do you know that from your own observation?

VON SCHIRACH: I know that from many of my assistants who constantly made a detailed study of the training in other countries, and I know about it from my own observation.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you think that is relevant, the fact that other nations trained in marksmanship? I am not sure it is true either, but anyhow, it is not relevant.

DR. SAUTER: Then I come to another question, Witness. The Prosecution have asserted and I quote:

“...that thousands of boys were trained militarily by the HJ in
the work of the Navy, of the naval aviation and of the armored
troops, and that over seven thousand teachers trained over a
million Hitler Youth in rifle marksmanship.”

That is the citation of the Prosecution referring to some meeting of the year 1938. I should like to have you state your position with regard to the question here, the question of the special units of the Hitler Youth.

VON SCHIRACH: The Prosecution refers, if I am not mistaken, to a speech which Hitler made. How Hitler arrived at the figures concerning training, I cannot say. Concerning training in the special units I can only say, and prove with documents, the following:

In the year 1938 the motorized Hitler Youth—that is that special unit of our youth organization which the Prosecution think received preliminary training in the tank branch—in 1938 the motorized Hitler Youth had 328 vehicles of their own.

DR. SAUTER: In all Germany?

VON SCHIRACH: In all Germany. There were 3,270 private cars of their family members which, of course, were at their disposal for their work; and 2,000 cars of the NSKK (National Socialist Motor Corps). In the year 1938 21,000 youth got their driving licenses. I believe, but I cannot be sure about it, that that is twice the number of youngsters that received a driving license in 1937—that is, the driving license for a passenger car. These figures alone show that the motorized Hitler Youth did not receive preliminary training for our armored forces. The motorized Hitler Youth had motorcycles; they made cross-country trips. That is correct. What they learned in this way was, of course, useful for the Army too, when these boys later were drafted into the motorized units; but it was not true that the boy who had been in the motorized Hitler Youth went to the Army. There was no compulsion in that respect at all. The motorized Hitler Youth was not created upon the request of the Wehrmacht, but it was already created in the fighting years—long before the seizure of power, simply from the natural desire of the boys who owned a motorcycle and wanted to drive it. So we formed our motorized HJ; we used these boys as messengers between tent camps and we used them as drivers for our minor leaders, and later, in order to give them a regular training, especially knowledge of motors, of engines, we made an arrangement with the NSKK, which had motor schools and could train the boys.

Other units were created in the same way. The Flieger HJ, for example, never had any airplanes. We had only gliders. The entire Hitler Youth had but one airplane and that was my own, a small Klemm machine. Aside from that, the Hitler Youth had only model airplanes and gliders. The Hitler Youth not only taught their own members the use of gliders in the Rhön Hills and elsewhere, but also thousands of youth from England and other countries. We had glider camps where young Englishmen were our guests and we even had camps in England.

DR. SAUTER: The Navy HJ, did they perhaps have warships?

VON SCHIRACH: The Navy HJ, of course, had not a single warship, but from time to time our former Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, Raeder, kindly gave us an old cutter and with that we put to sea.

The boys, for instance, who lived in a city like Berlin, near the Wannsee, and did some rowing, became members of the Navy HJ. When entering the Wehrmacht they did not, just because they had been in the Navy HJ, go into the Navy, but just as many went afterwards into the Army or the Air Force, and it was the same with other special units.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, you say therefore that in your opinion the Hitler Youth was not educated in a military way for the war?

VON SCHIRACH: I should like to be quite precise about that. The training in these special units was carried out in such a manner that it really had a premilitary value. That is to say that whatever the boy learned in the Navy Hitler Jugend, regardless of whether he wanted to use it only as a sportsman later, or whether he actually went into the Navy, the basic principles were valuable as premilitary education. If one considers these special units of the HJ, one can establish that here a premilitary education actually took place, but not a military training. The youth were not prepared for the war in any place in the HJ; they were not even prepared for the military service, because the youth did not go direct from the Hitler Youth into the Army. From the Hitler Youth they went into the Labor Service.

DR. SAUTER: And how long were they in the Labor Service?

VON SCHIRACH: Half a year.

DR. SAUTER: And only then did they get to the Wehrmacht?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: In that connection, however, the Prosecution has used an agreement which was made between the HJ leadership and the OKW in August 1939, and which has been submitted as Document 2398-PS by the Prosecution. What are the facts about that agreement between you and the OKW?

VON SCHIRACH: I cannot remember any details. Between Field Marshal Keitel and myself, according to my recollection, there was no discussion concerning that agreement, but I believe we arranged that by correspondence. And I should just like to state that during the entire time from 1933 to 1945, only one or two conversations of about half an hour took place between Field Marshal Keitel and me. The agreement, however, resulted from the following considerations: We endeavored in the Hitler Youth, and it was also the endeavor of the leading men in the Wehrmacht, to take nothing into our training which belonged to the later military training. However, in the course of time, the objection was raised on the part of the military, that youth should not learn anything in its training which later would have to be corrected in the Wehrmacht. I am thinking, for instance, of the compass. The Army used the infantry compass; the Hitler Youth, in cross-country sports, used compasses of various kinds. It was, of course, quite senseless that youth leaders should train their boys, for instance, to march according to the Bèzar compass if later, in their training as recruits, the boys had to learn something different. The designation and the description of the terrain should also be given according to the same principles in the Hitler Youth as in the Army, and so this agreement was made by which, I believe, thirty or sixty thousand HJ leaders were trained in cross-country sports. In these cross-country sports no training with war weapons was practiced.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, now I come to another chapter. It may be that this is the best time to adjourn.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now adjourn.

[_The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours._]

_Afternoon Session_

[_The Defendant Von Schirach resumed the stand._]

DR. SAUTER: Witness, before the adjournment we spoke about the question of the military or premilitary education of the youth. And now I come to a similar chapter; that is the question of whether you, as Youth Leader, in your articles, speeches, and orders did in any way attempt to influence young people psychologically towards an aggressive war in order to make them war-minded by such means.

VON SCHIRACH: No, never in my speeches to German youth, or in anything which I laid down for youth in the way of orders and directives, did I prepare German youth for war; nor have I ever, even in the smallest circle of my collaborators, expressed myself in such terms. All my speeches are contained in the collection _Das Archiv_, at least their essential contents. A considerable part of my speeches is collected also in a book _Revolution der Erziehung_ (_The Revolution in Education_), which has been submitted to the Tribunal.

All this evidence shows that I never spoke to the youth of the country in that sense; it would have been in direct contradiction to all my aims of co-operation with the youth of other nations.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, perhaps I may draw your attention in this connection to the document which is in the Schirach document book under Number Schirach-125, I repeat 125—and also 126, where Schirach expresses his opinion about the question of preserving peace and rejecting war. I ask the Tribunal to take judicial notice of these documents as evidence.

Witness, you have just spoken of co-operation between your Reich Youth Leadership Office and the German Hitler Youth with the youth of other nations. Could you give us a more detailed statement on that, in particular which youth associations of other nations you co-operated with, which you attempted to approach, and in which way and to what degree?

VON SCHIRACH: Starting in 1933, and in an increasing degree year by year, I made efforts to bring about exchange camps with youth organizations in other countries. Here in Germany these groups of English youth, French youth, Belgian youth, and the youth of many other countries, particularly, of course, from Italy, often came as our guests. I remember that in one year alone, I think in 1936, there were approximately 200,000 foreign youths who stayed overnight in our youth hostels.

Perhaps it is important in this connection to say that the youth hostel system, which I took over in 1933, was developed by me and finally formed a part of an international youth hostel system, the president of which was sometimes a German, sometimes an Englishman. An international youth hostel agreement made it possible that youngsters of our nations could stay overnight in youth hostels of the guest nations.

I myself took great pains to bring about an understanding with the youth of France. I must say that this was a pet idea of mine. I think that my former assistants will remember just how intensely I worked towards the realization of that idea. I had my leaders’ periodical appear in the French language; I do not know whether more than once, but certainly at least once, so that the understanding between the French and the German youth could be strengthened thereby.

I went to Paris and I invited the children of one thousand veterans of the first World War to come to Germany. I very often had young French guests as visitors in Germany. But over and above this understanding with France, which eventually also led to difficulties between the Führer and myself, I co-operated with many, many other organizations.

Perhaps I may add that German-French co-operation, as far as youth was concerned, was supported particularly by Ambassador Poncet in Berlin, Premier Chautemps, and other French personalities who wrote in my leadership periodical on that particular subject. I exchanged views with youth leaders all over the world, and I myself undertook long journeys to visit youth organizations in other countries and establish contact with them. The war terminated that work. I do not want to omit mentioning here that for one whole year I put the entire youth program under the slogan “Understanding,” and that in all my speeches before the youth I tried to direct and educate it toward a better understanding of other nations.

DR. SAUTER: Is it true that, for instance, even during the last years before the war, I think even in the winter of 1937-1938 and again 1938-1939, you received large delegations of English youth in skiing camps of the Hitler Youth and that vice versa also during those years considerable delegations of Hitler Youth leaders and Hitler Youth members were sent to England so that the people could get to know and understand each other?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, that is correct. There were innumerable encampments of foreign youth in Germany and very many camps of German youth abroad, and I myself often visited such camps or received delegations from them.

I would like to add that as late as 1942 I made an attempt to co-operate with the youth of France. At that time the difficulty lay in Mussolini’s attitude. I went to Rome and, through Count Ciano’s intervention, had a long conversation with Mussolini and succeeded in having him withdraw his objections to having our youth invite all French groups to come to Germany.

Unfortunately, when I reported this result to our Foreign Minister, Hitler turned it down. At any rate, that is what Herr Von Ribbentrop said.

DR. SAUTER: From an article in the paper _Das Archiv_ of 1938 I gather, for instance, that during that year you invited among others, 1,000 children of French war veterans to come into the Hitler Youth camps in Germany and into the German-French youth skiing camps. Is that correct?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I have already told you that.

DR. SAUTER: Another article shows me that, for instance, I believe in 1939, you had a special memorial erected, I think in the Black Forest, when some members of an English youth delegation were accidentally killed there during games.

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, the defendant had mentioned earlier that near Berlin he erected a special house for these purposes under the name “The Foreign House of the Hitler Youth.” May I present to the Tribunal in the original, pictures of this “Foreign House,” as Document Number Schirach-120; and may I ask the Tribunal to look at these pictures, because in them...

THE PRESIDENT: We are quite prepared to take it from you without looking at the house. The particular style of architecture will not affect us.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, but if you will not look at the pictures, then you will not know how the house was furnished; and you will not see that in the house, for instance, there was not a single swastika, not a single picture of Hitler, or any such things. That, again shows considerations for the views of the foreign guests.

In this connection, Mr. President, may I also ask you to take judicial notice of a number of documents, all of which refer to the efforts of the Defendant Von Schirach to bring about an understanding between German youth and the youth of other nations. These are the documents in Schirach’s document book which have the Numbers Schirach-99 up to and including Schirach-107, then Documents Schirach-108 through 113, and also Documents Schirach-114 up to and including 116, and then Documents Schirach-117, 119, and 120. All these documents refer to the same subject.

Witness, when you invited such delegations from foreign youth organizations to Germany, was anything concerning German institutions and organizations, particularly with reference to the Hitler Youth, ever kept secret from these delegations, or how was that?

VON SCHIRACH: No, as a matter of principle, foreign youth leaders who wished to get to know our institutions were shown everything without any reservations whatever. There was, in fact, no institution of German youth in the past which was not shown to our foreign guests. Also the so-called premilitary education was demonstrated to them in every detail.

DR. SAUTER: And then in 1939 the second World War broke out. During the last months before that happened, did you seriously expect a war; or with what did you occupy yourself at the time?

VON SCHIRACH: I was firmly convinced that Hitler would not allow a war to break out. It was my opinion that he was in no way deceived about the fact that the Western Powers were firmly resolved to be serious. Until the day when war broke out, I firmly believed that the war could be avoided.

DR. SAUTER: Did you discuss with military leaders or political personalities at that time the danger of war and the prospects of maintaining the peace?

VON SCHIRACH: No; in fact, I want to say something here and now about my discussions with military personalities.

I have already stated that over a period of 12 years—that is from 1933 to 1944 or 1945; that is, 13 years—I had perhaps one or possibly two half-hour conversations with Field Marshal Keitel. I remember that one of them dealt entirely with a personal matter.

During the same period I had, I think, only one single discussion with Admiral Raeder, and Admiral Dönitz I met for the first time here in Nuremberg.

I never had any official discussions with Generaloberst Jodl at all, and I talked to the late Field Marshal Von Blomberg, if I remember rightly, possibly twice for half an hour. I had no official discussions at all with the former Supreme Commander of the Army, Von Fritsch. I was his guest on one occasion only, when he was running skiing competitions for the army, and he kindly invited me because he knew that I was interested in skiing.

With his successor, Von Brauchitsch, I had a general chat on questions of education when I talked before the youth of Königsberg in 1933. Later, I believe, I visited him once on official business; and we discussed a question which was of no particular importance for the education of youth. It was some technical matter.

These are the discussions which I have had with military personalities. In fact, altogether I must say that I did not have time for conferences. I led an organization comprising 8 million people; and my duties in that organization were such that I did not possibly have the time to participate in conferences and discussions in Berlin regarding the situation, even if I had been admitted to them, which was not the case.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, from 1932 you were a Reichsleiter. That means that you belonged to the highest level of leaders in the Party. Were you not, in that capacity as Reichsleiter, informed by Hitler, his deputy, or other political personalities about the political situation?

VON SCHIRACH: I think that Hitler invited the Reichs- and Gauleiter, on an average, twice a year to a conference, during which he retrospectively discussed political events. Never at any time did Hitler discuss before these men operations of the future, whether of a political or military nature.

DR. SAUTER: Then, if I understand your answer correctly, you were always surprised by these foreign developments.

VON SCHIRACH: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Does the same apply to the question of the Austrian Anschluss?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes. I heard of the Anschluss of Austria, which of course I hailed enthusiastically, through the radio, if I remember rightly, during a trip by car from my Academy at Brunswick to Berlin. I continued my journey to Berlin, boarded a train at once, and arrived the following morning in Vienna. There I greeted the young people: youth leaders, some of whom had been in prisons or in a concentration camp at Wöllersdorf for a long time, and also many women youth leaders, who had also experienced great hardships.

DR. SAUTER: And what about the march into Czechoslovakia?

VON SCHIRACH: Like every other German citizen, I heard of that through the radio, and did not learn any more than any other citizen learned from the radio.

DR. SAUTER: Were you, in any capacity, a participant in the negotiations regarding the Munich Pact with Chamberlain and Daladier in 1938?

VON SCHIRACH: No.

DR. SAUTER: And what was your opinion?

VON SCHIRACH: I regarded that agreement as the basis for peace, and it was my firm conviction that Hitler would keep that agreement.

DR. SAUTER: Did you know anything about the negotiations with Poland in 1939?

VON SCHIRACH: No, I heard about the negotiations which led to the war, only here in this courtroom. I was merely acquainted with that version of the negotiations which was officially announced through the radio or by the Ministry of Propaganda; and I know no more, therefore, than what every other German citizen knows. The version which Hitler announced before the Reichstag was considered by me to be absolutely true; and I never doubted it, or at least I did not doubt it until about 1943, and all I have heard about it here is new to me.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Prosecution, among other things, have made the accusation against you that in your book, _Die Hitler-jugend—Idee und Gestalt_ (_Hitler Youth—Idea and Form_)—which, Mr. President, is Number 1458-PS—you used the expression “Lebensraum” (living space) and “Ostraum” (eastern space) and that by doing so you welcomed or considered as a necessity German conquests in the East, that is, at the expense of Soviet Russia and Poland.

What do you have to say about that?

VON SCHIRACH: In this book of mine, _Die Hitler-jugend—Idee und Gestalt_, the word “Lebensraum” (living space) is not used at all to my knowledge. Only the word “Ostraum” (eastern space) is used, and I think it is in connection with a press service in the East. In a footnote, in connection with a description of the tasks of the Colonial Advisory Board in the Reich Youth Leadership, there is a statement to the effect that, as a result of the activities of this Colonial Advisory Board the necessity of drawing the attention of youth to the exploitation of the eastern territory—and by that is meant the thinly populated eastern area of Germany—should not be overlooked.

That was at a time when we in the youth organizations were particularly concerned with the problem of the “flight from the land,” that is to say, the migration of the second or third sons of farmers to the cities. I formed a special movement of youth to combat that trend, the Rural Service, which had the task of stopping this flow of youth from the country to the towns and also of bringing home to youth in towns the challenge of the country.

Of course I never thought of a conquest of Russian territory because ever since I occupied myself with history it was always my point of view politically that the policy regarding mutual security with Russia, which broke off with Bismarck’s dismissal, should be resumed. I considered the attack against the Soviet Union as the suicide of the German nation.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, did you, as the Youth Leader of the German Reich, have the right to report to Hitler directly?

VON SCHIRACH: Yes, that is true; but this right to make reports was more or less only on paper. To picture that precisely, before the seizure of power I frequently reported to Hitler in person. In 1932 he quite often announced his intention to dine with me in the evening, but it is clear that in the presence of my wife and other guests political questions were not discussed, particularly not the questions which fell into my special sphere. Only now and then, perhaps, could I touch upon a subject which interested me in connection with education.

In 1933, as far as I can remember, I reported twice to him personally, once regarding the financing of the youth movement, and the second time in connection with the Party Rally of 1933. During the following years my reports averaged one or two a year whereby I was treated in the same way as most people who reported to Hitler. Of the 15 odd points on which I wanted to report to him, I managed to deal with 3 or 4, and the others had to be dropped because he interrupted me and very explicitly elaborated on the things which interested him most.

I then tried to help myself by taking along models of youth buildings, views of the big stadiums and of youth hostels, which I had set up in a hall in the Reich Chancellery, and when he looked at them I used the opportunity to put two or three questions to him.