Chapter IX: Part 9

7197. Have you had reason to know whether there would be facilities or otherwise for the purchase of sites for settlements of that description from the native chiefs?--I think there might be a little opposition made in the first instance, which might easily be overcome. I remember one of the chiefs of the Gallinas telling me that he would have no objection to see the English settle there; but others again did not seem so desirous of it. Again, at Cape Mount the chief was very anxious that the English should establish themselves, and carry on trade there; and when I was last at Cape Mount the English flag was flying. The American governor of Liberia came up, and was very desirous that the American flag should be likewise hoisted, which the chief refused; he showed a decided preference to the English.

7198. Is there a coasting traffic established along the coast to any degree from point to point, and is any part of it carried on by the liberated Africans of Sierra Leone?--I think not; I think the coasting trade of Sierra Leone to the southward does not extend beyond one or two towns in the Sherboro’ River, where they go for cam wood, which is particularly good there. To the northward the canoes trade to the River Scarcies, and occasionally, I think, as far as the Pongos. But those boats that go to the Pongos always incur the suspicion that they are all more or less carrying goods for the slave dealers in the Pongos; but as far as regards the immediate coasting trade of Sierra Leone, it is very much confined.

7199. You would be glad to see the services of a steamer secured for Sierra Leone?--I think it is absolutely necessary.

7200. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] And also for the Gambia?--And for the Gambia likewise. I think it is absolutely necessary for the Gambia, to communicate between St. Mary’s and M‘Carthy’s Island. For instance, it occurred while I was at the Gambia that information arrived from M‘Carthy’s Island of the natives having attacked the island, and before troops could be sent up, or I could get up in a sailing vessel, many days elapsed, where a steam-boat would have done it in a day and a half. Steam-boats would also be particularly useful for the suppression of the slave trade.

7201. Is there any other point besides Sierra Leone and the Gambia where you think they are particularly wanted?--I would say, generally along the coast, for the suppression of the slave trade, I should say that it would require half-a-dozen steamers to protect the coast between the Gambia and the southernmost slaving ports on the western coast of Africa.

7202. Where?--Down to Benguela. I think about half-a-dozen steam-boats would be sufficient.

7203. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] What is the average passage by steam and the average passage by sailing vessels between the Bight of Benin and Sierra Leone?--It depends a great deal upon the season of the year. I think from the Bight of Benin to Sierra Leone the average passage in sailing vessels is about a month.

7204. Have you experience sufficient to enable you to state to the Committee the average passage by steam-vessels?--No, I have not.

7205. What is the extreme length of passage between the Bight of Benin and Sierra Leone in a sailing vessel; the question having reference particularly to a sailing vessel taking slaves on board for adjudication before the court at Sierra Leone?--I have heard of vessels being a very long time, three months; I think I remember slave vessels that have taken between two or three months to get up from the Bight of Benin to Sierra Leone; but I think that is a very rare occurrence; usually the passage is made in about a month.

7206. In all seasons?--In all seasons; I think a month is the average passage.

7207. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] What is the shortest?--I think I have heard of its being done in a fortnight.

7208. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] What is the average passage across the Atlantic, from the Bight of Benin to the Havannah?--From five to six weeks; but I think it is done in less time; I think I remember a slaver telling me, that he did it in something less than a month, but I think from five to six weeks is the average passage; the great difficulty is getting immediately off the coast.

7209. _Chairman._] Are the winds mostly on shore?--It depends a great deal on the season of the year.

7210. Would there be any difficulty in a vessel lying off Cape Palmas, if it were thought desirable, for the purpose of regulating any emigration that might proceed from those parts?--I think there would be no difficulty in a cruizer remaining off Cape Palmas; in lying at anchor there would be danger, but not in keeping under weigh.

7211. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you think that it would be possible for a naval officer to undertake the service of clearing vessels for the West Indies, having ascertained that the natives embarked on board came with their free will, without any fraud or compulsion?--I think the local authorities could do that better than a naval officer.

7212. The question refers to those parts where there are no local authorities; and it proceeds on the supposition that no vessel could be received with emigrants in the West Indies without a clearance from the British officer commanding a certain range of coast: could a British officer in the first place lie off and on, and in the next place, could he discharge the duty of ascertaining whether the emigrants on board any vessel submitted to his examination, were or were not engaged on that voyage without fraud or compulsion?--I think he would have no other means of ascertaining, but what he was told by the natives themselves.

7213. What course would he pursue; would he muster the emigrants on deck, and be able to ascertain from them the circumstances under which they were embarked?--Of course he would have to muster the negroes, and he would question each whether they embarked with their free will for the purpose of emigration; but to do that, he would require an interpreter, and perhaps amongst the number, there might be a great many who spoke different languages; therefore there would be as many interpreters required, as there were different languages; and after all, those people might declare that they had not been asked, and probably place the naval officer in a very awkward predicament. He would be subject entirely to the African, who might tell half-a-dozen different stories in the course of so many months. It would be a very difficult measure to carry out.

7214. _Chairman._] If they were only to embark Kroomen or inhabitants of the coast, do you think he would have any difficulty in ascertaining whether they were free agents or otherwise?--With Kroomen or Fishmen, I think none whatever; because in the Kroo country and in the Fish country the slave trade is not carried on, or if it is carried on, it is so slight that we hardly know any thing about it.

7215. Mr. _Aldam_.] Is there more than one language spoken by the Kroomen and the Fishmen?--There is some difference of language, but still they understand one another.

7216. One interpreter would be sufficient with the Kroomen and the Fishmen?--I think so.

7217. _Chairman._] Would the officer on the station be able to distinguish Kroomen and Fishmen from the natives of the interior?--Decidedly, any person could.

7218. So that if he were instructed to sanction the emigration only of Kroomen and Fishmen, he would be in no danger of confounding them with any other tribes?--No, they are so distinct a class; they are perfectly different from any other natives. They differ materially in appearance, and manners, and language, and every thing.

7219. Then if the emigration were confined to those classes, you do not apprehend that there would be any difficulty in preventing that emigration from assuming the character of slave trade?--I think there would be no difficulty in the Kroo country and in the Fish country. The difficulty would be on the part of the coast where the slave trade is known to have been carried on, and where, from the slave trade having been carried on, the different tribes are so very much intermixed.

7220. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Could it in that case be done by the commander of a fort on shore, who if he had time, would be able to ascertain the facts?--I think it would be an undertaking of great trouble.

7221. Mr. _Forster_.] Have you made any other seizures on the coast of Africa than the Augusta?--Several.

7222. Did you seize a vessel called the Sénégambie at St. Mary’s?--Yes, I seized a vessel called the Sénégambie in the river Gambia.

7223. On what ground was that seizure made?--On account of being equipped for the slave trade.

7224. Were you aware at the time you seized her that she had been chartered by the governor of Senegal for the voyage in which she was engaged?--I do not know whether I knew that at the time of making the seizure, or whether it was immediately afterwards, but the impression upon my mind is, that the owner told me in the custom-house that he was going to Bissao for a cargo of negroes.

7225. Did he not show you his papers and engagements, or rather did you examine them yourself?--The papers of the vessel when I seized her were in the custom-house. The vessel had been in the port of St. Mary’s two or three days.

7226. Did you not examine the papers?--I went to the custom-house for the purpose of examining the papers, and there I met Mr. Marbeau, the owner of the vessel, who told me the vessel was going to Bissao for a cargo of negroes.

7227. Did he not inform you that the negroes were for the service of the French government?--Afterwards I received copies of an agreement entered into between Mr. Marbeau and the governor of Senegal, transmitted to me by the governor of St. Mary’s.

7228. When did you receive them?--While I was at St. Mary’s.

7229. Before or after you had seized the vessel?--I think two or three days after I had seized the vessel; but those papers are printed in the correspondence, and they give much better information upon the subject. I have nothing to guide me but my recollection.

7230. Were there any mechanics or persons on board of her from the shore, at the time you seized her?--Yes; there were some mechanics on board of her belonging to St. Mary’s, who were employed in caulking and fitting the vessel for her intended voyage. There were also on board of her three small children, who I thought were under most suspicious circumstances, belonging to St. Mary’s.

7231. Did you think the carpenters and caulkers, who were engaged on board the vessel from shore, were there under suspicious circumstances?--No, they were employed on board the vessel, fitting the vessel for her intended voyage to Bissao for a cargo of slaves. The Sénégambie was partly equipped for the slave trade; she was lying in a British port, equipping for a cargo of slaves, where she had been for two or three days; the equipments were quite sufficient to condemn her, and she was condemned at Sierra Leone. She was absolutely lying in a British port equipping; she was to get provisions, and she had carpenters and men at work upon her belonging to the colony.

7232. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Was she preparing false decks?--The slave-deck was partly laid, not wholly laid; she was being generally equipped for the voyage she was going on.

7233. _Chairman._] Were the carpenters laying the slave-deck?--I cannot say exactly what the carpenters were doing; I did not see them laying the slave-deck; but she was fitting out for her intended voyage to Bissao. There was a slave-deck partly laid, and part of it to be laid, and I believe they would have finished it.

7234. Were the planks ready for completing the slave-deck lying there?--I think they were.

7235. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] But you are certain that part of her slave-deck was laid?--Yes.

7236. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Did you seize her upon the ground of her partial equipment?--Her equipment was the ground upon which I seized her.

7237. _Chairman._] And it was the ground of her subsequent condemnation?--It was; the equipment was perfectly proved.

7238. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you wish the Committee to understand that that vessel was chartered by the governor of Senegal for a voyage to Bissao, and that she was not fitted out for that voyage at Senegal?--That I cannot say; I found her partly equipped, and lying in a British port, equipping for her intended voyage. She was so far equipped for the slave trade that there were ample grounds for my seizing her; and she was there caulking, fitting, and preparing for sea. She was to receive provisions for her intended voyage from the colony of St. Mary’s; at least, so I was informed by the supercargo.

7239. How do you account for the vessel coming from the neighbouring French settlement of Senegal to fit out for the purpose of receiving those negroes at the Gambia?--It is a most extraordinary thing, in my mind, that a vessel should sail from a French port, only distant 50 or 60 miles, and come to an English port, and there remain for two or three days, with people at work upon her, caulking and repairing her, and fitting her for sea.

7240. Mr. _Aldam_.] Had she had bad weather?--No, nothing at all of the sort; by the vessel’s papers she was not out of Goree more than one day before she arrived at the Gambia; I think less than one day.

7241. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you wish the Committee to understand that the vessel did not arrive at the Gambia with all her fittings for the voyage?--I have before stated that the vessel was lying in the Gambia, caulking and equipping for her intended voyage. It is impossible for me to state whether she brought her slave-deck with her to the Gambia, or whether she procured her slave-deck at the Gambia; but if she came to the Gambia with all those equipments on board, I would ask what can be thought of our custom-house officers at the Gambia?

7242. Do you think the custom-house officers at the Gambia would very readily conceive themselves entitled to seize a French vessel, chartered by the governor of Senegal?--The vessel being chartered by the governor of Senegal could have nothing to do with the laws that prevail in a British port. The French governor of Senegal cannot be regarded in an English port; our own laws are what are to govern our officers. The custom-house officers’ duty was to seize a vessel that was acting contrary to the laws of a British port.

7243. Therefore you think it was no excuse for the custom-house officers that she was employed in the service of the French government?--None whatever, because the custom-house officers, in all probability, would be perfectly ignorant of that circumstance, as I was myself. I seized her, and I was not aware she was employed by the French government till I had seized her one or two days.

7244. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] The last question, and your last answer, have assumed that the vessel was employed in the service of the French government; is that what you wish the Committee to understand in respect of a vessel chartered by the governor of Senegal: might it not have been a speculation, on the part of the governor, as an individual, not involving any responsibility on the part of the government of France?--Undoubtedly it is very possible that it might have been a speculation on the part of the governor of Senegal without the knowledge of the French government; but in the case of a vessel equipped for the slave trade in a British port, whether she is employed by the governor of Senegal, or the governor of Bissao, or the governor of any nation, cannot in any way affect our laws.

7245. Mr. _Aldam_.] Was this vessel, which was fitted up for the purpose of procuring negroes for the French service, fitted up as an ordinary slave ship?--As an ordinary slave ship.

7246. There were the same means of restraint?--Precisely; iron bars across the hatchway, and the usual equipment of a slave vessel.

7247. So that it appeared that men were intended to be kept under restraint upon the voyage?--Certainly.

7248. Mr. _Forster_.] Were there any slave-irons on board?--I do not at this period remember very minutely her equipment, but there was quite sufficient ground to authorise my seizing the vessel.

7249. What were those carpenters doing on board?--They were at work upon the vessel.

7250. Can you describe the work they were doing?--I cannot do that: they were performing their work as carpenters.

7251. _Chairman._] Do you recollect whether they were caulking outside, or performing work inside the vessel?--I saw them at work, but I do not remember whether they were caulking the outside or the inside; but I see in my report that she had caulkers on board belonging to St. Mary’s, who were caulking and equipping her.

7252. Mr. _Forster_.] When you found that those carpenters belonged to St. Mary’s, did you send them on shore?--No, most assuredly not.

7253. Did you seize them with the vessel?--I sent them up with the vessel to Sierra Leone, and put them into the court with the vessel; and with respect to the three children that were on board, I considered, from their age, that they could be in no way connected with the equipping of the vessel, or otherwise concerned in the vessel beyond a general suspicion arising in my mind of what was intended to be done with those children, and I therefore sent them on shore to the governor of the Gambia, that he might make such inquiry respecting those children as he might judge proper.

7254. Did you consider that those carpenters, working for hire on board a vessel in the harbour, were justly chargeable with a participation in the slave trade?--They were found on board the vessel, and I considered it was necessary that I should send them with the vessel before the Vice-Admiralty Court.

7255. Did you consider them as assisting in the equipment of the vessel?--They were assisting in the equipment of the vessel, and it was with that view I sent them up; and, moreover, their evidence, if the court had required it, would have been necessary to show that the vessel was absolutely equipping in a British port; but perhaps the vessel would have been condemned without it.

7256. What was the result of the trial?--The vessel was condemned.

7257. Mr. _Forster_.] If the vessel was so fully equipped for the purposes of the slave trade, as you stated, how could the evidence of those carpenters be necessary at Sierra Leone?--I have stated that the vessel was partly equipped, and was completing her equipment in the port of St. Mary’s; those carpenters being on board, I considered that it was necessary that I should send them to Sierra Leone for the court to decide in what way they were punishable.

7258. Were not representations made to you from the shore that those people were carpenters belonging to the settlement, hired by the master of the vessel, and in no way answerable for his proceedings, or for the destination of the vessel?--No official representation was made to me; perhaps some merchant, or some person connected with some mercantile houses on shore might have told me so, but I certainly paid no attention to it, nor did I consider myself bound to pay attention to any thing of the sort. Had an official representation been made to me from the governor, of course it would require my greatest attention; but if an officer in the execution of his duty is to be guided by every person that he may meet in the settlement telling him this, that, or the other, there would be no possibility of his ever performing his duty.

7259. But at all events you knew that they were native workmen, belonging to the British settlement at the Gambia?--Yes; I knew that from their own story. I sent them up with the vessel, and put them into court with the vessel, and moreover acquainted the lieutenant-governor of the Gambia officially that I intended doing so.

7260. Were they put in prison upon their arrival at Sierra Leone?--I was not at Sierra Leone when the vessel arrived. To the best of my knowledge they were confined about a month.

7261. _Chairman._] Were they condemned?--I do not know.

7262. Mr. _Aldam_.] Were they confined preparatory to trial, or after sentence?--I forget, for I was not at Sierra Leone at the time; but I believe it was the Vice-Admiralty Court that confined them.

7263. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you know whether the carpenters were tried or not?--I do not know; I was not at Sierra Leone during the trial of the vessel, but I believe I arrived at Sierra Leone the very day that the vessel was condemned in the Vice-Admiralty Court.

7264. Did you make no inquiry as to the fate of those carpenters?--No, I did not, because I left Sierra Leone, I think, the day after the vessel was condemned, for Portendique, and I had no time to make inquiry on either of the two days that I was at Sierra Leone. I knew that the vessel was before the Vice-Admiralty Court who would decide upon the merits of the case.

7265. Was there a French gentleman also on board the vessel when you seized her?--There was a French person on board, whom I believed to be the supercargo, and, I rather think, was the brother of Mr. Marbeau.

7266. Did you find that he was the supercargo of the vessel?--He told me that he was the supercargo; and I believe that he was the brother of Mr. Marbeau, the owner.

7267. Was he not a passenger from Senegal to the Gambia?--It is impossible for me to say what he was.

7268. Had he been on shore at the Gambia previously to your seizing the vessel?--It is impossible for me to say.

7269. Did you carry a French gentleman from the Gambia to Sierra Leone, without making inquiry into his character and pursuits, and his connexion with that vessel?--All persons who were found on board the vessel, as I have before stated, with the exception of three black children, I sent to Sierra Leone, because I could not tell, of course, what he was doing in the vessel; he might be a French gentleman, or he might be there for the purpose of purchasing slaves; or he might be, for what I could tell, the very person who had got on board the three children, who, I have before stated, I thought were placed in a very suspicious position. My duty was to send everybody found in the vessel I had captured, on the suspicion of slave dealing, before the court appointed to adjudicate upon such cases.

7270. How did you consider him to be connected with those three children?--What I stated was, that he might be; I have not said that he was; I stated that I knew nothing about him, but finding him in the slave vessel, I sent him with the slave vessel before the court.

7271. You sent the three children on shore?--Yes; everybody else I sent before the court; and if any person in the world had been on board the vessel I should have sent him in the same way; if an English merchant had been on board, that merchant would have gone with the vessel likewise before the court; the court is to decide upon the legality or illegality of the conduct of persons found under such circumstances.

7272. _Chairman._] You conceive that that vessel, by her equipment was clearly seizable, as engaged in the slave trade?--Yes, or else I should not have seized her; I took upon myself a great responsibility in seizing her.

7273. And under those circumstances you felt yourself called upon to send every person found on board the vessel for adjudication before the proper court?--Yes; if I had not done so, I should have conceived that I laid myself open to the charge of not doing my duty.

7274. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] When you find a vessel reasonably suspected of being engaged in the slave trade, you think those who are found on board are liable to the same suspicion?--In the case of a vessel seized amenable to the British law.

7275. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] Did you not find on board the vessel a contract between Marbeau and Pellett on the one hand, and the French governor on the other, to deliver a certain number of “passengers” at Goree?--This contract for “Blacks” was forwarded to me by the lieutenant-governor of the Gambia, one or two days after I had made the seizure, which contract I sent to the Vice-Admiralty court, with the vessel; every paper connected with the vessel, as well as the contract, was laid before the court.

7276. Mr. _Forster_.] Were you aware that she was engaged by the French government before you sent her from the Gambia?--I had seen this contract, which was entered into by the French governor of Senegal, but not the French government.

7277. Was the French gentleman, M. Pellett, put in prison also upon his arrival at Sierra Leone?--I have stated that I know not what was done by the court at Sierra Leone. Not being in Sierra Leone at the time the vessel was at Sierra Leone, I cannot say; but, to the best of my belief, the whole of them were put in prison.

7278. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Have you known instances of persons in authority under other governments being engaged in slave dealing?--The charge has been frequently repeated very strongly of the governor of Bissao being engaged very frequently in slave dealing, and I verily believe it myself, because I have frequently detected vessels with papers given by the governor of Bissao, which vessels were equipped in every way for being engaged in the slave trade; and I have also some recollection of some papers being found from the governor of Bissao, detailing how some slaves that he had sent from Bissao were to be disposed of.

7279. That slave dealing being contrary to the law of his own country?--That slave dealing being contrary to the treaty between England and Portugal.

7280. Therefore the mere fact of finding the name of a governor upon the papers would not be a complete warrant for the lawfulness of the traffic in which the vessel was engaged?--I should pay great respect to the name of the French governor, but I should be very cautious how I regarded the name of the governor of Bissao, because I have seen so many instances of papers in which his name has been used to cover slaving transactions.

7281. Mr. _Forster_.] Was the captain of the Sénégambie a black or a white man?--I think a black man was represented to me as the captain.

7282. Mr. _Aldam_.] You spoke of the desirableness of having forts upon the African coast, upon the territory of the native chiefs. What establishment would it be necessary to have in any such fort?--I should think if the forts were small and well built, a very few men would be sufficient; I should fancy the best form of fort to be erected would be a Martello tower, that they might have one gun upon a pivot, so that for the defence of the fort it would require very few men.

7283. How many whites?--I should say half white and half black; I should say a dozen men altogether.

7284.--Would not one or two white officers be sufficient, the rest of the men being black?--That would do if you could insure white officers living, but the danger is of one dying, and in that case to whom would the charge of the fort devolve. It would be necessary to have a sufficient number of white people, that you might always insure one person to be in command.

7285. Are there no sub-officers blacks, whom you might entrust with a command of that kind, subject to the visits of the captains of men-of-war upon the station?--I think not at present; I think Africa would require to be much further advanced in civilization before it would be prudent to trust a fort entirely to black men.

7286. And it would generally happen that those forts would be built upon an unhealthy part of the coast?--It is almost impossible to select any part of the coast of Africa as being healthy. One spot may be more healthy this season than another; but there is very little difference upon the coast. The coast of Africa, from the Kroo country up to Senegal, is generally composed of a low swampy mangrove line of coast. Those mangroves extend frequently from 25 to 30 miles into the interior. There are spots like Sierra Leone, Cape Verde, and Cape Mount, where you can find high land; but generally speaking it is all a swampy mangrove coast.

7287. The spots you would select for those forts for commercial purposes would generally happen to be unhealthy?--It would naturally so occur, because they would require to be near the mouths of the principal rivers, for drawing the exports down from the interior; but I should think that the communication would be drawn down better from the interior by opening some communication, or making an agreement or treaty with some of the inland powerful chiefs, such as the Foolahs, who are by far the most enlightened race that I have seen, and much more advanced towards civilization than the people in any other part of Africa that I have been in.

7288. Sir _T. D. Acland._] Does Teembo belong to them?--Yes.

7289. Mr. _Aldam_.] Would you contemplate in that case having a fort some distance up the river?--No; in the River Nunez, to which I allude with respect to the Foolahs, I do not think it would be necessary, because the petty chiefs immediately at the mouth of the Nunez, who are now likely to give trouble, would be kept in order by them; I think a treaty entered into with the Foolah chief, would in a great measure ensure our trade with the Foolah country. Through the means of the Foolah chief we should be enabled to carry on trade independent of the petty chiefs, through whose territory the trade now has to pass.

7290. What kind of treaty would you make with those chiefs?--The object of it would be to bind the Foolah chief down to afford protection and security to our commerce, and to people settling in his country, for the purpose of carrying on trade.

7291. And you think it would be easy to obtain such a treaty?--I think so; I judge from the opinion given me by a Foolah chief, whom I met in the Nunez, and who expressed himself desirous that the white people should not leave the River Nunez, and said that he would be very happy to escort me up to Teembo, that the Foolah Almaamy would be very happy to see me.

7292. Over what extent of country would the influence of this chief extend?--The Foolah country is now very extensive. The kingdom of Kikandy is in some measure tributary to the Foolah country.

7293. Mr. _Forster_.] Were you at Sierra Leone when the affair of the Hamburgh vessel, the Echo, took place?--I was at Sierra Leone while the Echo was there.

7294. Did you apply to the captain of the Echo for some of his crew?--I met some of the crew of the Echo, who came to me and expressed a wish to enter the Saracen for Her Majesty’s service, and on meeting the captain of the Echo, I mentioned to him that those people had done so; but I had no idea of entering the crew, as they were all foreigners.

7295. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] How far is the Nunez navigable?--For vessels drawing 10 feet water to Debucca, a distance of 50 or 60 miles; and for large canoes I should think much higher.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
_Select Committee on West Coast of Africa._
R. R. GIBBONS, Esq. to MESSRS. ZULUETA & Co.

Gentlemen,

July 15th, 1842.

I send you herewith a copy of evidence given by Captain Hill, of a
later date than that I sent on a previous occasion.

I am, &c.

(signed)

_R. R. Gibbons._

_Lunæ, 4º die Julii, 1842._

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Sir T. D. Acland.
Mr. Aldam.
Viscount Courtenay.
Captain Fitzroy.
Mr. W. Hamilton.

VISCOUNT SANDON, in the chair.

Captain _Henry Worsley Hill_, called in; and further Examined.

7958*. _Chairman._] Have you something which you wish to add to your evidence on the case of the Augusta?--Yes; I wish to state, with respect to my detaining the Augusta, the grounds on which the seizure was made, as far as my memory will admit of my going, and I feel myself at liberty to disclose to the Committee. On going on board the Augusta, amongst the letters and papers that were seized by me, I found a letter, dated “London, 20th August 1840.” This letter is a reply to a letter written by Captain Jennings from Portsmouth, stating, “We cannot exceed 500_l._ for the vessel in question, such as described in your letter; if you cannot, therefore, succeed at those limits, we must give up the purchase.” This letter is signed Zulueta & Co. By this letter, it certainly appears to me that the vessel was purchased by Zulueta &, Co., or intended to be purchased by that firm. The next letter is dated “London, 26th of September 1840,” addressed to Captain Thomas Jennings, Portsmouth; the signature of this letter was cut out on my finding it. It acknowledged the receipt of Captain Jenning’s letter of the following day, observing “that the sum remitted would not be sufficient to cover the expenses, to clear the ship, and requesting that Captain Jennings would write the next day, stating the sum that was necessary, that it might be forwarded to him by the post of Monday night, to enable the ship to sail for Liverpool on Tuesday or Wednesday at furthest.” The signature cut out. But there is a note to the letter: “According to our Liverpool mode, note, you will go on shore to the Salt House Dock.” The next paper I would allude to, is the charter-party of the vessel, dated London, 19th October 1840, wherein it is mutually agreed, between Mr. Thomas Jennings, master and owner of the good ship or vessel called the Augusta, and Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co. of Havannah, that the ship shall load from the factories of the said Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co. a cargo of legal goods, and shall proceed therewith to Gallinas, on the coast of Africa, and there deliver the same; after which she may be sent on any legal voyage between the West Indies, England, Africa, or the United States, according to the directions of the charterer’s agents. The freight to be paid on unloading and right delivery of the cargo, at the rate of 100_l._ sterling per calendar month. The necessary cash for the ship’s disbursements to be furnished to the captain free of commission; the captain being indebted to the charterers in certain sums, as per acknowledgment elsewhere. The freight earned by the vessel to be held as general lien for such sums.” This is signed Thomas Jennings, for Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co. of Havannah, Zulueta & Co.

7959*. Jennings is the owner of the vessels?--Yes.

7960*. And Zulueta appears as the agent to Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co., chartering Jenning’s vessel for certain purposes?--Yes; by the extract from the first letter it appears that Zulueta bought the vessel; by the second letter he pays the expenses of the vessel; but the charter-party is made out by Thomas Jennings, as the owner of the vessel.

7961*. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Then Zulueta acts as agent for Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co.?--Yes; the next paper, I will read the extract from is marked “Additional Memorandum of Charter-party;” which commences, “I Thomas Jennings, captain and owner of the ship Augusta, declare I have received from Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co. of this city, 1,100_l._ sterling, for the disbursements of the said ship, the fitting out and provisions, which I engage myself to repay, with the earnings of the same, namely, all the earnings of the ship, will be accounted for and applied to the said Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co., they furnishing the cash for all expenses, crew’s wages (including 15_l._ per month for my salary as captain). At any time when the said gentlemen may think proper to close the charter-party, I will deliver to them, or their representative, a bill of sale for the said ship, and all her appurtenances, to cover the balance due to them in the said account.” It states, that Mr. Thomas Jennings is no way responsible for the settlement of the above-mentioned debt, but with the said ship and her earnings, and that Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co. will take on themselves the insurance and risk on the vessel. This paper is dated London, 21st October, 1840, and signed “Thomas Jennings.” The next paper is the bill of lading, which states the cargo to be shipped by Thomas Jennings, of Liverpool, in the Augusta, lying in the port of Liverpool and bound to Gallinas: 20 hogsheads of tobacco, 60 cases of arms, one case of looking-glasses, 10 casks copper ware, 134 bales of merchandize, 1,600 iron pots, 2,370 kegs of gunpowder, to be delivered at Gallinas to Don Alvarez, Don Angel Ximenez, and Don Jose Perez Rolla. This is dated Liverpool, 10th November 1840. The vessel had no register, but a sailing licence from the Commissioners of Her Majesty’s Customs, wherein Thomas Jennings, of No. 2, James-street, Limehouse, is represented to be the owner, and that the vessel is to be employed in foreign trade. There is also an account current between Messrs. Zulueta with Thomas Jennings, master of the Augusta, amounting to 339_l._ 16_s._ 9_d._, the chief part of which is for the disbursements of the vessel. I further state to the Committee, that ten letters were found on board this vessel, dated Cadiz, and addressed to three notorious slave merchants at Gallinas: in one of these letters, addressed to Señor Ignacio Perez Rolla, at Gallinas, dated Cadiz, 30th November 1840, is a paragraph to the following effect: “In a letter, dated London the 21st instant, which I have just received from Messrs. Zulueta & Co., merchants, in London, I had the pleasure of receiving a bill drawn by you on them for 250_l._, which I this day place to their credit, waiting your advice of the same.” This letter is signed “M.” but no name. The other letters were all on slave business; not a word of any innocent trade, but the whole directing how slaves were to be shipped on board various vessels.

7962*. Who were they signed by?--All signed in the same way.

7963*. Signed “M.”?--Yes, and to the best of my recollection, every vessel to which they referred was captured by Captain Denman and myself.

7964*. Where were these letters dated from?--From Cadiz; the Vanguardia was captured by Captain Denman; the Uracca by myself, the Diana also; the other vessel referred to in the letters is the Gabriel, which vessel fired upon the boats of Her Majesty’s vessel Termagant, killing three or four of her crew, and has been since captured by the Acorn, Captain Adams. Therefore these letters at once show that the three persons to whom they were addressed, residing at Gallinas, and who were the parties to whom the Augusta was consigned, were most extensively engaged in slave dealing. No other letters were found on board the Augusta but those that related to slave dealing.

7965*. The Augusta had touched at Cadiz on her way out from England?--Yes, and landed part of her cargo at Cadiz, although it was consigned to be delivered at Gallinas.

7966*. What are the inferences that you draw from these papers?--That Zulueta, by the letter of the 20th of August, 1840, advanced the money for the purchase of the vessel; that by the letter of the 26th of September, that Zulueta advanced the money to defray her expenses and fitting out, necessary before she proceeded to sea; that Mr. Jennings was put in as the owner, when in fact he was not the owner; that Zulueta was perfectly aware of this, and that he chartered the vessel to carry a cargo on behalf of Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co. of Havannah, a notorious slave dealer, which cargo was to be delivered to three notorious slave dealers at the Gallinas; that afterwards these notorious slave dealers at Gallinas were to have the direction of the vessel for the future proceedings; and, moreover, that at any time Messrs. Martinez, or their agents, thought proper to close the charter party, the vessel was to be given up to their agents, by which means, a ship bearing English colours was certainly employed by notorious slave dealers; she was to be directed in her voyage by slave dealers; and she was, at any time these notorious slave dealers thought proper to name, to be given up to them entirely. This transaction, with the purchase of the vessel, and a person put in as the nominal owner who was not the owner, cannot but stamp a character that the vessel was engaged, with the knowledge of Zulueta, in some trade that they were desirous should not be discovered.

7967*. Mr. _Forster_.] Inform the Committee in what way you connect Messrs. Zulueta & Co. illegally with any improper transaction there, or what part of the transaction which you have detailed it was not competent for foreign merchants to perform as agents in this country; mention which part they were not bound to perform, provided they received instructions from their agents at Havannah to do it, having money in their hands to make a purchase of the vessel and ship the goods?--Messrs. Zulueta must be aware that it is contrary to law to act as agents, or otherwise, for the shipment of goods that are to be employed in the slave trade; they were bound to do no thing illegal; they are merchants residing in England, and they must conform themselves to the laws of England, and they cannot, by the laws of England, plead ignorance of those laws.

7968*. _Chairman._] You conceive it would be unlawful for an agent in this country to ship goods to be employed in the slave trade?--Yes.

7969*. Mr. _Forster_.] How is a merchant acting in this country in pursuance of orders from his correspondent abroad to know what that correspondent means to do with the goods which he purchases on his account and ships at Liverpool?--In this case I think it is plain that Messrs. Zulueta entered into a scheme for chartering and purchasing a vessel, and putting in an owner, and establishing a British character to a vessel that he could not be ignorant was to be engaged in the slave trade, or in some trade which, for reasons that Messrs. Martinez may have, that they wished to keep in the back ground, and that secrecy alone ought to have called from Messrs. Zulueta a degree of vigilance, and more particularly a vessel being bound to a place on the coast of Africa, where, if they had taken the slightest trouble in the world, they must have known there were no constituted authorities or custom-house officers, or any persons of an European nation who could ascertain if she was engaged in legal trade.

7970*. Then, in fact, you think it is imperative on the English merchant, before he executes the orders of his foreign correspondent, in any matter relating to the trade between Brazils, Cuba, and the coast of Africa, to send out and inquire the character of the party with whom the transaction is connected on the coast of Africa?--I have stated nothing of the sort; but I have endeavoured to be particular in making it appear that this vessel was chartered to a place where there were no constituted authorities. A vessel to be chartered to the Brazils or Cuba, or any country where authorities existed in the colony of a recognized nation, would materially alter the position of Messrs. Zulueta; but Messrs. Zulueta, as I before stated, residing in England, it became the duty of that house to be guarded that they did not break the laws.

7971*. Do you speak of this as a matter of prudence and taste on the part of Zulueta & Co., or as an act of criminality?--As far as I am able to give my own opinion, I believe that Messrs. Zulueta were perfectly criminal; at least they had a perfect knowledge of what they were doing. I think I am borne out in that by the secrecy they have endeavoured to purchase, and putting in a false owner. Messrs. Zulueta have been for a number of years agents to the notorious Pedro Blanco; they have also before this purchased and sent out to the Havannah a notorious slave vessel called the Arrogante, which circumstance was represented by Mr. Tolme, Her Majesty’s consul at the Havannah, to the English Government, and is also in the printed correspondence laid before parliament, either for the year 1839 or 1840. In fact, there can be no want of evidence to show that Messrs. Zulueta had for a length of time been agents to slave dealers; and I think it is impossible that any merchant can be an agent and ship cargoes of goods without ascertaining some knowledge of the party for whom they are shipped.

7972*. in the first place, you assume that it was illegal for Messrs. Zulueta & Co. to ship these goods to Alvarez at the Gallinas; are you quite sure that that is not a gratuitous assumption of law on your part?--I am speaking from my own belief; I cannot say what the law is, but I am speaking from my own belief, and the inferences I can draw from the vessel’s papers. I think the papers are quite conclusive to the mind of any man that Zulueta was cognizant of what he was doing; but as far as it is an illegal transaction it is not for me to judge, but the judge of the Vice-Admiralty Court of Sierra Leone did think it illegal, and condemned the vessel; and, moreover, the man who is put forward as captain and owner did not defend the vessel on her trial.

7973*. Are you quite sure he had the means to do so?--He cannot plead as an excuse that he had not the means, for the owner of a vessel in a British port, with a cargo worth between 4,000_l._ and 5,000_l._, I think, could always manage to raise 30_l._ or 40_l._ for the defence of his vessel.

7974*. Was that cargo in his possession, or was it under seizure at the time you speak of?--The vessel and all was seized by me, but still there was the captain and the owner present, and nothing was touched until the condemnation took place.

7975*. How could he offer security and raise money on a seized ship and cargo?--To say how he is to do so is not for me; I am not a mercantile man, but I only observe, that it is most extraordinary that the owner of a ship, with a cargo on board, cannot, in a British port, raise 50_l._ for the defence of that vessel.

7976*. But how can you affect any wonder on that subject, when you yourself admit that you do not know how he was to do it?--I have already stated that I am no mercantile man, and to say how these things are done, I cannot.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
TAKEN BEFORE
THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON WEST COAST OF AFRICA.

_Mercurii, 22º die Junii, 1842._

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Mr. Aldam.
Sir T. D. Acland.
Captain Fitzroy.
Sir Robert H. Inglis.
Mr. Milnes.
Mr. W. Patten.
Mr. Stuart Wortley.

Captain the Honourable _Joseph Denman_, R. N. called in; and Examined.

6540. _Chairman._] Will you state what your service on the coast of Africa has been?--My first acquaintance with the coast of Africa was in the year 1834, when I took over a slave vessel from Rio Janeiro. In the year 1835 I commanded the Curlew, upon that coast, for a considerable period; and for the last two years I have been in charge of the coast between Cape Verde and Cape Palmas. I was the senior officer upon that district.

6541. What has been the course of the slave trade since your acquaintance with the coast of Africa; has it decreased in extent, or changed its direction?--Since my first acquaintance with the coast, the slave trade has changed in many most important particulars, both with regard to the locality and with regard to the method in which it has been carried on.

6542. Will you state first, as to the locality, in what respect it has changed?--In the year 1835, when the Equipment Treaty came into force, the effect was, in a great measure, to drive the slave trade into the south latitude, where it was carried on with perfect impunity, under the flag of Portugal, by the then existing treaty. They then found that upon the north coast they could carry on the slave trade, by using the flag of Portugal, exactly as before.

6543. By the north coast, you mean north of the equator?--Yes: but from the end of the year 1839 they have been equally shut out from the Portuguese and from the Spanish flag. Up to that period no check whatever had been effected. Since that period I conceive that the slave trade has diminished to one-half what it was before.

6544. Not only north of the equator, but along the whole coast?--Along the whole coast of Africa. The whole amount of the export of slaves from Africa is, in my opinion, now, not one-half what it was previously to the Act of 2 Victoria, empowering us to capture Portuguese ships fitted for the slave trade. The effect of all former changes had been to throw the slave trade under the flag of Portugal, where it received a perfect protection in the southern latitude, and in the northern latitude was on the same footing on which it had been always since the trade was first established.

6545. Does the trade seem now to look to any flag to cover itself under?--They seem to have been deprived of every flag they could possibly look to; they no longer receive protection from any flag.

6546. Not from the American?--Not from the American flag, decidedly, except indirectly.

6547. Do you conceive that the present system, if carried on with the same amount of force, will reduce the slave trade to a still greater extent?--My opinion is, that the system of blockade is that which alone can be successful under any circumstances, but that to render it effective we want a considerable increase of force; with an increase of force I believe that in three years the slave trade may be demolished and exterminated.

6548. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] In the south as well as in the north?--Yes; there is no longer any difference since the 2nd of Victoria.

6549. _Chairman._] Do you contemplate a blockade of the whole coast?--I contemplate the blockade of those parts where the slave trade is carried on.

6550. Do you believe that a material check to the trade, or an extirpation of the trade for two or three years, in any one place, makes it difficult to resume it afterwards, if the interference of the cruizers is suspended?--It turns the trade into another course. When once the trade is interrupted at any place, people are not in the habit of sending traders up the country for slaves, and traders from the interior cease to bring slaves down to them there, and there is great difficulty felt in resuming it; and in almost every instance legitimate commerce comes in, and the wants of the natives are supplied by those means; but I would not in such cases suspend the interference of the cruizers altogether, until the slave trade should be entirely eradicated.

6551. You believe that when the slave trade is checked for a period, legitimate commerce grows up in its place, and the desire to resume it is diminished?--I think the desire to resume it is diminished, in the first place, principally on account of the difficulty of resuming it. I believe that all over Africa the natives prefer the slave trade to any other trade.

6552. But you conceive that the lawful trade co-operates with the efforts of the cruizers?--In speaking of lawful trade I think it is necessary to state, that in my opinion the only legitimate trade of Africa, in the strict sense of the term, is that wherein goods are paid for in produce; all other trade, more or less, is connected with the slave trade.