Chapter XI: Part 11

6698. _Chairman._] How would you carry out the principle of separation; would you proceed to prohibit certain places which you considered to have no other traffic than the slave trade till the slave trade should have been to a certain amount checked, if not extirpated from that place?--My opinion is, that there is a change required in the law. At present, English merchant ships may supply slave factories, known to every soul at Sierra Leone to be slave factories, and yet if they cannot prove that the person who sold those goods for the purpose of buying slaves, did actually and positively know in his own mind the fact of those goods being certainly to be used in the slave trade, there can be no conviction.

6699. In a case such as that of Canôt, who is a great produce dealer, as well as a dealer in slaves, would you prohibit intercourse with him?--I would not prohibit intercourse with any body: but in every case where it was clearly proved that goods were sold to a person who it was well known could only use those goods in the slave trade, and the slave trade alone, that man’s character being perfectly notorious, I think that British vessels supplying him with goods, ignorant of his character, and from the want of the exercise of reasonable care and precaution, so aiding and abetting the slave trade, should be subject to the penalties of the Act.

6700. Speaking of this as a legal question to be provided for by Act of Parliament, how would you decide the proportion of produce trade which should entitle a foreign slave dealer, under such an Act of Parliament, to carry on intercourse with British traders; unless you could define that, would it not be easy for every slave dealer wishing to have that intercourse, to carry on a trade in produce, however small, sufficient to bring him within the permission given to deal with persons carrying on trade lawfully as well as unlawfully?--I do not think that it would be desirable to apply the provision very strictly; I think it would be very injudicious to be searching and inquiring in every case, whether the proceedings were of this character or not; but where there is a glaring and an unquestionable case, such as any English merchant sending goods to a slave ship, or to a factory where there is no other trade, I think he should be punished, and I think that it is highly important to the position which England holds upon this question with regard to foreign nations; my proposition is, that if from want of reasonable care he did not know that which was a notorious fact to every body else, he should be subject to the penalties.

6701. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] The trade of which you are speaking is that which is carried on with factories, notoriously used for the purpose of the slave trade; would you apply the law to such places?--I can mention a case which I think is a very strong one, the case of the Gallinas, where, to my certain knowledge, cargoes to a great extent were brought under the American flag, and other flags, solely for the purpose of purchasing slaves, the freight for all those cargoes being paid for in the Havannah, and without one single atom of produce being exported in return. Now in my opinion it was open under the Act for a British merchant ship to have carried all those goods to the Gallinas instead of an American with perfect impunity, and such a course of trade would bring the utmost scandal upon the English name, and the utmost doubt upon the sincerity of our wishes to put an end to the slave trade. You could not probably have proved to the satisfaction of juries at Sierra Leone, that they were knowingly aiding and abetting the slave trade.

6702. Mr. _Forster_.] Then to render such a law effectual you must induce all nations to enter into a common league to carry it out?--I think not; my view is, that England must leave to other countries the control of their own merchant vessels; but especially considering the situation she holds with regard to the slave trade, I think she is bound to prevent such a direct system of aiding and abetting slave trade on the part of English vessels.

6703. Do you think, if England were to do so, that it would have any real tendency to prevent the slave trader obtaining a supply of goods?--Certainly not; as in this instance he got all those goods without the assistance of the British flag; but had the British flag been used, I think it would have been an abominable disgrace.

_Veneris, 24º die Junii, 1842._

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Sir T. D. Acland.
Mr. Aldam.
Viscount Courtenay.
Mr. E. Denison.
Captain Fitzroy.
Mr. Forster.
Mr. W. Hamilton.
Sir R. H. Inglis.
Mr. Milnes.

VISCOUNT SANDON, in the chair.

Captain the Honourable _Joseph Denman_, R. N. called in; and further
Examined.

6742. _Chairman._] You mentioned that there had been a considerable change in the means employed for putting down the slave trade, within the last two or three years: and you mentioned, in the first instance, a different system of cruizing pursued in consequence of the Equipment Treaty. Has there not been another means lately introduced, by means of destroying the slave factories upon the coast?--The slave factories of the Gallinas were not destroyed as a part of the powers with which I was invested. It was in consequence of peculiar circumstances, which I took advantage of for the purpose.

6743. What was it that entitled you to make that attack?--For a long series of months, the people upon the shore had been guilty of the most inhuman conduct towards my boats, conduct which a state of war would not justify, and which would be a fair subject of war if committed in any civilized country.

6744. You grounded your attack upon information received of the detention in slavery, by the son of the chief of the Gallinas, of two of Her Majesty’s subjects of the colony of Sierra Leone?--I did; but I had long previously intended to destroy the barracoons and the slave factories, if I found the case to be what I supposed it was, upon the grounds that I have before mentioned.

6745. What were those grounds?--The inhuman treatment of my boats. I can show the Committee letters from the officers reporting the treatment they had received. The circumstances detailed in those letters were reported to me by the commander of the ship as having occurred some time previously to the destruction of the factories. This is the report of the officer in the boat; he wrote me this letter subsequently to the affair, at my desire, the circumstances having been stated before. He was entrusted with one of the Rolla’s boats. He says, “I stood out for the purpose of reconnoitring, it blowing a strong breeze, with a head sea. I had not proceeded above three miles from the Alexander,” an American brig, “when the boat was unfortunately stove, and it was with great difficulty she was kept afloat by constant baling with three buckets, until we arrived alongside the Alexander, the captain of which vessel kindly allowed us to hoist her on board for the purpose of repairing. Subsequently the captain of the Alexander going on shore to wait on his consignees, they very strongly expressed their disapprobation at his having rendered any assistance to a British cruizer’s boat, and at the same time regretted that he had not left us to sink or swim. Had the captain complied with their wishes, which had been communicated to him previous to this accident, the only resource left us would have been to attempt beaching the boat, which, owing to the boisterous state of the weather, would have been almost impossible, and probably attended with loss of life to all or most of the crew, the bar at the time being perfectly impassable, and not the slightest probability of keeping the boat afloat for any length of time by means of baling.” That is signed by Mr. George Marriott, mate. In consequence of this prohibition, refuge was repeatedly refused to my boats by friendly vessels disposed to succour them, and had any boat subsequently been in the same condition, she would have been left to drown with all her hands. My whole knowledge of this was from the circumstances reported to me by different officers.

6746. Were there other cases of the same nature?--Other cases of the same nature, produced by threats of the persons on shore, which prevented American and French vessels in the roads, otherwise disposed to do so, having done so before, from affording refuge to our boats under almost similar circumstances. But no case was so strong as that of the boat sinking.

6747. Mr. _Forster_.] Were those things done by the authority of the native chiefs, or by the authority of the Spanish slave dealers?--Before I went into the river I had no means of knowing; but I considered that the chiefs of the country were responsible for the treatment of cruizers in their waters according to the law of nations.

6748. It appears by the correspondence that the detention of a woman named Try Norman and her child were the grounds you chiefly relied upon to justify that proceeding?--I might have gone upon either ground. I preferred choosing the ground of the detention of that woman and her child; first, because it was an outrage of a far graver nature even than those I have described, which had occurred in the anchorage; and secondly, because it would enable me at once to go to the barracoons to get out all the slaves, to endeavour to find out whether Try Norman and her child were among them.

6749. By which of the chiefs was this woman detained?--By a man of the name of Manna, the eldest son of King Siacca.

6750. Did he assign any reason for detaining this woman and her child; did he justify himself in anyway?--It was impossible that he could justify himself in any way. I considered that the woman Try Norman was as much a British subject as any person in this room. I can see no distinction between his making a slave of her and his making a slave of any white person.

6751. Did he attempt any justification?--He attempted a justification which was utterly unsatisfactory. His justification was, that the person to whom she had been an apprentice had owed him money and that was the ground of his excuse, as appears in the printed correspondence.

6752. Do you know the name of the woman who, he said, owed him money?--I know nothing of it but by his own statement; the woman’s name was Rosanna Gray.

6753. You have read the correspondence?--I have.

6754. Is there not a letter from this Prince Manna, complaining that one of his wives, whom he had sent to Sierra Leone for instruction, had been made a prostitute by this Mrs. Gray?--So it appears in his letter.

6755. Did not his detention of this woman and her child arise out of that transaction?--Such was his statement.

6756. Did you inquire, when you arrived at Sierra Leone, whether there was any ground for that statement?--I did make some inquiry about it, and Mrs. Gray stated that the girl had run after the men herself. I put the correspondence into the governor’s hands, and requested him to afford such redress to Prince Manna as the case might require.

6757. But you ascertained that she had been under the care of Mrs. Gray?--There was no doubt of that fact, I believe.

6758. Then, at all events, you destroyed those factories and barracoons on your own responsibility, and not by virtue of any treaty with Spain?--I destroyed those barracoons upon my own responsibility, because I found that the Spanish slave dealers had been the persons who had been the cause of the inhuman treatment of my boats at sea, in the first place; in the second place, I found in those barracoons two British subjects. The destruction of the barracoons and factories was done through the medium of the consent of the native chiefs.

6759. _Chairman._] Did you not act in some degree under instructions from the governor of Sierra Leone?--The governor of Sierra Leone had no power to give me any instructions; he merely mentioned the circumstances, and requested me to take the necessary measures for redeeming this woman; I considered that a stronger ground to go upon than that which I before intended to go upon, and I therefore adopted that which appeared most advantageous.

6760. Mr. _Forster_.] Did the native chiefs grant that authority to destroy the property of the Spaniards voluntarily?--Decidedly; they agreed to destroy it themselves, upon the grounds stated in the correspondence.

6761. It would appear by the correspondence that they showed great unwillingness to meet you and confer with you on the subject of your mission, when you arrived there?--For the obvious reason, that Prince Manna felt, that having held a British subject in captivity, he was in a very awkward position; I think that is explained in my letter to Governor Doherty.

6762. In the letter of the 20th of November you call upon King Siacca to “destroy their factories, and their contents, or consent to Captain Denman’s doing so, and that he will deliver up the slaves who have been carried into the bush from the factories.” You mean that he consented after you had made a requisition to this effect?--Undoubtedly; a requisition to that effect was made, because he stated that the white slave factors had got him into the scrape without his knowledge, and without his authority; and also because I found them in possession of British subjects for the purpose of exportation.

6763. The first article of your treaty with him stipulates that he shall totally destroy “the factories belonging to these white men, without delay,” and in a sort of postscript to the treaty, you promise him the forfeiture of the goods belonging to the Spaniards that were deposited in the Spanish stores?--I made no promise of the sort. The postscript states, that King Siacca having declared that the white slave dealers have acted in defiance of his laws, he considers their goods are forfeited to him; for that reason my demand for their destruction was withdrawn, and I consented that he should take possession of them.

6764. In point of fact, they received as the reward of their consent, the whole of the property belonging to the Spaniards that was found in the stores at the Gallinas?--No, it was not so, for the treaty was already entered into before this permission was made; and, moreover, at the time this treaty was made they had already taken possession of the goods out of all the factories but one.

6765. But, at all events, they got the goods as the result of their proceedings?--They undoubtedly got the goods. I do not mean that the chiefs got the goods, but the people in general got the goods.

6766. Do you think that the Spaniards were settled there with the approbation or consent of the chiefs?--I believe that the Spaniards did settle there, in the first instance, with the consent of the chiefs; but I believe that they afterwards became very powerful, and were exceedingly hated by the chiefs. I had various complaints from the natives of the haughty and disgusting treatment which they received from the Spaniards.

6767. If they were so averse to the settlement of those Spanish slave dealers, how did it appear to be necessary to insert an article in the treaty, binding King Siacca that no white man should ever for the future settle in his country for the purpose of slave dealing?--I thought it desirable to prevent the possibility of the slave trade being re-established by the white people, as it had been before established.

6768. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Does it follow, that because the chiefs were averse to those Spaniards living with them, that they should also be averse to every other white man who might come there?--I thought there was a very considerable chance of the slave trade being re-established by white men afterwards.

6769. And therefore you took such steps as you thought best to prevent any similar settlement?--To prevent any similar settlement, and to give us a right to compel them to send them out of the country again if ever they should resume such practices. It was a precautionary measure.

6770. Mr. _Forster_.] Does it not seem somewhat inconsistent with the seventh article of the treaty, which stipulates that “no white man from Sierra Leone shall settle down in King Siacca’s country without his full permission and consent”?--It seems to me quite in accordance with the other principle. I say, “No white man shall sit down as a slave trader.” King Siacca, upon the other hand, in order to insure himself against his country being taken possession of by the English, proposes this, which I accede to. It was a proposal of the chiefs on the part of the King Siacca.

6771. Does it not imply that the king was averse to allow British traders to settle there from Sierra Leone?--I think it bears upon its face that he was averse, for the reason I have before stated.

6772. _Chairman._] Did you feel yourself entitled, by King Siacca’s country having been made the means of carrying on a slave trade, through which some of Her Majesty’s subjects had been made slaves, to make stipulations which should prevent the recurrence of such an outrage for the future?--Not only entitled, but bound to do so.

6773. And you conceived that one of the most effectual means for that purpose would be to prevent other white men, foreigners, from taking advantage of King Siacca’s country as a position from which to carry on a trade which endangered the safety of Her Majesty’s subjects and their free passage into that neighbourhood?--I will state the principle upon which I acted, and the relation in which I considered that we stood towards King Siacca. In the first place, the outrages and inhospitality committed in his waters I considered him responsible for; secondly, I considered him responsible for holding Sierra Leone people in his country as slaves for the purpose of traffic. Upon his declaring that he knew nothing of those acts, I considered it perfectly just that the punishment should be visited upon the persons who had committed those crimes, and who had been the cause of those crimes.

6774. And you felt yourself entitled, if the king professed an inability to prevent others from taking advantage of his territory for purposes injurious to the security of British subjects, to take means yourself for securing such objects?--I entered into a treaty for the purpose of preventing future proceedings of the description that had already occurred, and enabling me to meet such cases if they should recur.

6775. Mr. _Forster_.] Is it not your opinion that it has been owing to the preference given to Spanish slave dealers that British merchants have not sooner established themselves at the Gallinas, and carried on commercial pursuits there?--In my Report to the Governor of Sierra Leone upon the state and prospects of trade in the Gallinas, in page 15 of the Printed Papers, I say, “When the English slave trade was abolished, considerable traffic sprung up and was rapidly increasing when the Spaniards commenced the slave trade in about 1817. From that time legitimate commerce gradually withered, and was at length totally annihilated by the establishment of a permanent slave factory in-shore, about 15 years ago, by Pedro Blanco, at that time mate of a slave vessel. Since then the slave trade has been the only pursuit, and during the long period that has since elapsed, not enough produce has been exported to form the cargo of the smallest coasting vessel.”

6776. Had there been any legitimate trade carried on at the Gallinas previous to your operations there?--A passage in the letter I have just read states my opinion upon that subject, derived from information from the chiefs themselves.

6777. _Chairman._] You mean by legitimate commerce, the exchange of manufactures for produce?--Exactly; and I stated that there was no legitimate commerce, because there was no produce whatever. Might I be allowed to refer to a question and answer that I understand has been put referring to the Gallinas. I have been informed that this question was put to Mr. Peters: “You do not think Captain Denman’s observations upon the subject practically of any value.” Now I beg to observe that Mr. Peters can never have seen my observations upon the subject. The answer of Mr. Peters is, that I thought I had put an effectual stop to the slave trade in the Gallinas, and that many others thought so.

6778. Mr. _Forster_.] In a letter to the Governor of Sierra Leone, dated the 12th of December, you say that the people at the Gallinas “have already, in a wild state, but of the finest quality, cotton, indigo, pepper, and palm nut, the sugar cane and tobacco, which they are enabled to cure. Salt is procured in considerable quantities, and there is no doubt that coffee would flourish as well as at Sierra Leone and Monrovia.” Do you wish the Committee to understand that if a trader from Sierra Leone were to go there with goods, he could obtain in exchange for them any of those articles you have enumerated?--With regard to the tobacco there is a misprint; instead of “enabled to cure” it should be “unable to cure.” I have stated in the same letter that no cultivation whatever did exist, and that I used every effort to persuade the chiefs to cultivate the soil. My information was derived from the chiefs as to the existence of these articles.

6779. _Chairman._] Do cotton, indigo, pepper, palm nut, the sugar cane, and tobacco, grow there in a wild state, and are they of good quality?--It is a fact that I derived from the unanimous declaration of the chiefs of the country.

6780. Mr. _Aldam_.] Are there any means of carrying on any considerable commerce at the present moment?--Certainly not. It must begin upon a small scale, as elsewhere; it does not spring at once into a considerable commerce.

6781. Mr. _Forster_.] Are you of opinion that there is nothing questionable in the proceedings of our navy in destroying the property of foreigners in a foreign country, and encouraging the native chiefs in those proceedings, with reference to the moral effect of it upon the minds of the chiefs and the natives?--It depends entirely upon circumstances. If aggressions have been committed against persons belonging to Sierra Leone (and I can conceive no aggressions or injuries so great as that of making British subjects slaves), I consider that those people are in every respect entitled to the same protection as white people. Indeed I consider that the liberated Africans of Sierra Leone have peculiar claims to the regard and protection and favour of England. I see no distinction whatever between them and British subjects. Supposing three British subjects had been held in this way, I conceive it would have been highly improper to have allowed such a proceeding to pass unnoticed.

6782. _Chairman._] You rest your proceeding at the Gallinas, not upon the general ground of using means for putting down the slave trade, but upon the specific offences committed by the chiefs of the Gallinas against British subjects settled at Sierra Leone, and their inhospitality to your crews upon the coast?--Precisely so.

6783. Therefore you do not consider that you are making a precedent for indiscriminate descents upon the coast, wherever a slave barracoon is established, for the purpose of destroying it as a means of putting down the slave trade?--In the proceeding adopted by me at the Gallinas, the grounds were exactly those stated in the preceding question. At the same time I conceive that the destruction of barracoons and slave places not in settlements belonging to European powers, would be justifiable all over the coast. Nothing of the sort had been done before, and therefore I did it under very heavy responsibility. I could not have struck out a new line without some special grounds to go upon.

6784. Should you consider yourself entitled, without any of those peculiar grounds for the interposition which the proceedings at the Gallinas gave you, to make a descent upon any point of the coast under the jurisdiction of a native chief, where slaves were collected for the purpose of exportation, and destroying those barracoons, and insisting upon the slave trade being given up?--I should think myself perfectly justified in doing so whoever the slave factor might be. Whether it would be borne out by my instructions from the Admiralty would depend upon what those instructions were.

6785. You would conceive yourself, if you were an officer on that station now, entitled to pursue that as a general method of putting down the slave trade?--I should certainly have pursued it had I remained.

6785*. Do you conceive yourself entitled to do this under instructions, under treaties, or entirely upon your own responsibility, without any direct authority?--I consider that it might have been done upon my own responsibility entirely, upon the footing that the law of nations can afford no sort of recognition of the dealing in slaves by Spaniards in a foreign country. And secondly, that those persons were criminals by their own laws, and could not look to protection from their own government. So long as the slave trade was clearly and distinctly separated from legitimate trade, I consider that such proceedings would have been perfectly justifiable.

6786. Supposing a native chief had collected slaves in barracoons upon his own territory for exportation, should you then have felt yourself justified in destroying such places?--I should have considered myself justified in following the same system there, upon the ground that the native chiefs are not recognized amongst the nations of the world; they are in a barbarous state, and the law of nations, in my opinion, cannot apply to them further than for their own good and their own protection, and I should have considered the destruction of those buildings and the taking off the slaves as an act most directly and most importantly tending to their own good and benefit.

6787. Captain _Fitzroy_.] It has appeared in evidence before this Committee that the Pluto sailed from Fernando Po, under orders from the Admiralty, to destroy any barracoons or other slaving establishments that she might meet with in various parts of the coast, not being the property of Europeans; were similar instructions issued to the officers on that coast while you were there?--I saw instructions to that effect a few weeks before I left that coast.

6788. From the Admiralty?--From the Admiralty.

6789. _Chairman._] Have you been at the Gallinas since?--Yes, I have been three or four times at the Gallinas.

6790. Has the effect of what you did been to put down the slave trade, or to what extent has it done so?--It has nearly broken up the system then followed, except as regards the south-east branch of the river, upon which a place called Soolimane stands; there was, when I was at the river, a small factory there, which I did not destroy, as I had no case against it, and this is the factory which Captain Blount has recently destroyed. In the part where I went, it does not appear that any slave trade has sprung up again.

6791. You conceive then that if this process is followed, it will be effectual for its object?--My opinion is, that in such a part of the coast as the Gallinas, blockade alone is quite sufficient to stop the slave trade. These measures, of course, render the operation of the blockade more quick. But I had kept a blockade up at that place for nearly a year, during which only two vessels had escaped. Nearly 20 vessels had been captured, and they were reduced to despair. Every American vessel generally used to inform my officers that the slave dealers declared they could not carry on the trade under the pressure of a blockade so maintained. The blockade during a great part of the time, both at Cestos, where similar results were produced, and at the Gallinas, was carried on for the greater part of the time at the Gallinas by my ship alone, and at Cestos by the Termagant alone, under my orders.

6792. During that blockade, did you prevent the access of any vessel bringing goods into the country?--I interfered with only vessels equipped for the slave trade; goods to purchase the slaves I could not interfere with. Had they been brought in British vessels, I should certainly have seized those vessels; but I should have been very doubtful whether conviction would have followed under the penal clauses, where the necessity of proving the knowledge of the party is so difficult.

6793. But you would have taken the risk?--I should have felt it my duty to take that risk.

6794. Mr. _Aldam_.] Did any British vessels attempt to go in during that period with goods?--No, not while I was there.

6795. _Chairman._] Did any vessels of any nation come in with lawful goods during that period?--There is a list of them in the correspondence.

6796. Mr. _Forster_.] Then if a British vessel, laden with lawful merchandise, had attempted to enter the Gallinas, you would have seized her?--Not so, exactly; but if British vessels had come under the same circumstances as American vessels did, with cargoes consigned from Pedro Blanco to Thomas Buron, both notorious slave dealers, to be paid for at the Havannah, or in dollars there, I certainly should have seized them.

6797. How could you have known how the goods were to be paid for?--I should have considered it a clear case of aiding and abetting the slave trade, as clear as it is possible for any thing to be.

6798. How could you have learned that the goods would be paid for at the Havannah in dollars?--I think it is immaterial whether they were paid for in dollars at the Havannah or at the Gallinas; but the fact that they were not paid for in produce, and that it was distinctly putting goods into the hands of the Spaniard Buron to buy slaves with, would, in my opinion, make it a clear case of aiding and abetting the slave trade.

6799. _Chairman._] And you would argue, from those circumstances, that guilty knowledge could not be absent?--Guilty knowledge could not be absent, in my opinion, in such a case. It may repeatedly happen that, in default of proving their guilty knowledge, people may escape; whereas every one but the criminal himself perfectly well knows the character of the trade which is going on, and which alone could be going on at such a place. Sierra Leone juries are exceedingly careful to have the fact of the knowledge imprinted upon the mind of the culprit proved to them; and unless it is proved they will not convict.

6800. Mr. _Forster_.] At all events, you would have assumed the guilty knowledge, and seized the vessel under the supposed circumstances?--I should; and had I not done so, I think my conduct would have been open to a court-martial.

6801. You have stated that you think the slave trade can be effectually prevented, and was effectually prevented, by a blockade at the Gallinas?--It can certainly be effectually prevented, and was effectually prevented to such an extent that during 9 or 10 months but two vessels escaped, and about 20 were captured.

6802. Then it was not necessary, for the purpose of putting down the slave trade there, to destroy the Spanish property?--My reflection in such a case always would be, the miseries that the slaves on shore were enduring in consequence of this; and I should always be eager to take every opportunity of relieving them from it. It would be undoubtedly the most effectual measure possible.

6803. The using means to put down the slave trade, or to throw difficulties in the way of the slave trade, carries a moral justification with it, which no one can question; but do you think the means you took in that case were altogether justifiable, upon the ground of example to the natives, and the native chiefs; do not you think they might misunderstand those proceedings, and that it might lead to conduct on their part prejudicial to the interests of British commerce?--I think not in any way whatever; I think the operation would be the opposite.

6804. _Chairman._] Are you aware that any British commerce has followed since those operations against the Gallinas?--No, it has not; I knew very shortly afterwards that they were endeavouring to re-establish the slave trade about there, and I kept the blockade up, intending to knock them down immediately the fine season commenced, and that has been done by Captain Blount.

6805. Mr. _Forster_.] From your experience in Africa you are aware of the great importance of setting all ranks of the natives a high example of honour, and equity, and honesty, in all dealings and transactions; and the question is, whether the effect of those proceedings in that point of view may not render them open to objection. Is it not your opinion, considering that they are not themselves opposed to the slave trade, that they might be at some loss to understand, on any principle of justice, why you should be at liberty to destroy the property of a Spaniard who favoured the trade which they also favoured, and they not be at equal liberty to destroy the property of a British merchant who was opposed to them on the subject of the slave trade?--They are perfectly well aware that the one trade is a legal trade and that the other is a prohibited trade; and they are, moreover, perfectly sensible of the injustice of the custom of selling their fellow-creatures.

6806. _Chairman._] You find them open to feelings of that nature?--Perfectly; the _argumentum ad hominem_ always tells very well with them.

6807. Mr. _Forster_.] In your opinion, do they consider the slave trade a crime?--They do not consider it a crime, because it is not against their laws; but they perfectly well know that it is opposed to every principle of justice, that it is founded upon the grossest injustice and cruelty, and that it is productive of the utmost misery.

6808. How could they reconcile it to their notions of justice that you should destroy the property of Spaniards for doing that which is legal according to their own civil institutions?--Because they are perfectly aware that the Spaniards are carrying on a contraband and prohibited trade, and therefore they are not surprised to find that their vessels are captured; nor are they much surprised when they find that their slaves on shore are emancipated. The one is just as easily to be reconciled to their minds as the other.

6809. _Chairman._] Have you found, among any of the native chiefs with whom you have had to deal, a feeling against this as an act of injustice?--No, I cannot say that I have, in any instance. On the contrary, I have a letter from the chiefs of Sea Bar, distinguishing their position altogether from that of the Gallinas people, and, upon that ground, begging that I would not come and burn them down.

6810. Do you think they are aware that the slave trade, if carried on by any European nation, is a trade in itself illegal?--They are perfectly aware of it.

6811. Mr. _Aldam_.] How do the chiefs at Sea Bar distinguish between their case and the case of the Gallinas?--It is rather a difficult letter to understand. It was sent off with two ducks, which I believe were poisoned for my benefit. It is a long letter. It alludes to General Turner’s endeavours to get possession of their country, and then points out that it is not under the English laws, and that they have received intelligence from the Gallinas that I have burnt and destroyed the Spanish factories, and that it is my intention to come to Sea Bar and do the same; and it ends with something like a threat, that if we did do it, we might be insulted by their people, which they should be sorry for.

6812. Will you have the goodness to deliver in the letter?--

[_The same was delivered in, and read as follows_:]

“Sea Bar.” On Her Majesty’s Service.

To

Deman Esq., Commander of Her Majesty’s brig Wander.

Hon. Sir,

2 December 1840.

Be it known to you and all other officers commanding Her Majesty’s
vessels cruizing on this part of Africa, particularly off Sea Bar,
that we the undermentioned gentlemen of this country, do with the
greatest honour to you and all Her Majesty’s subjects, do relate and
acquaint you of our poor late and respected father, Mr. James Tucker,
chief of this country, which I have no doubt the Government knows the
same, as he told them when they consulted together with Messrs.
Rendall, Macauley, Campbell, and several other gentlemen of the colony
of Sierra Leone, when with intention to put him under the controul of
the English laws, but which he did not consent to, stating that it was
his living throughout all his ancient family, and he had no other
means for his livelyhood, yes certainly the inhabitants of the colony
of Sierra Leone trade in this river, but their trade is no profit nor
benefit to us in this country, although they receive a great
assistance from this country, but however we have received
intelligence from the Gallinas that you the subject of Her Majesty’s
have burnt and destroyed all the Spanish factories in that country,
and that it is your intention coming down here at Sea Bar, and will
act the same here as have done with Gallinas, so therefore we the
under gentlemen of this country do beg and warn you with the greatest
friendship towards Her Majesty’s subjects to acquaint you that this
part of the country is very different with the Gallinas, as the land
is our and all the standing property and building is belonging to us,
and in case they should be destroyed and burnt down on account of
foreigners, it cannot be an injury to them, but to us in the country;
we very knows that it is a law between the different nations of Europe
for diminishing that traffic, but however it dont concern with us as
they comes to us, if you meet them outside to sea, but coming in the
rivers and destroying places, so therefore hearing such news from Her
Majesty’s subjects about this country and taking as friends, and if
you coming on any purpose you dont let us know in the country and burn
any place belonging to us; as we do honour the English colour for fear
of coming in such a manner, perhaps some of our subjects might do what
may be an insult to the English flag, and we dont wish such a thing to
be between us, so therefore we beg you all to allow us the liberty of
relating to you the aforementioned laws of this country, and hoping it
will not be an offence to you.

We remain, &c.

Tessana Town, } _Henry Tucker._
2 December 1840. } _Johnny Tucker._
} _Jack Tucker._

6813. _Chairman._] Did you have intercourse with those chiefs after that letter?--No, I did not. The rainy season was coming on, and I was compelled to go to another part of my station.

6814. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Did Governor Doherty make a requisition to you, that you should take those measures with respect to the Gallinas which you have described?--The only requisition from Governor Doherty to me was, to recover the woman and her child, who had been made slaves of by Prince Manna.

6815. Did Governor Doherty express himself satisfied, or otherwise, with the result of your expedition to the Gallinas?--In the first letter in the correspondence before the Committee, a despatch to Lord John Russell, Governor Doherty expresses, in the strongest way, his satisfaction.

6816. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] Having received the approbation of the local government near the scene of your exploit, have you also received any expression of approbation on the part of Her Majesty’s Government, either on the part of the Colonial-office, or of the Admiralty, or of both?--The Colonial Secretary and the Foreign Secretary both expressed, in the strongest terms, their approbation of my proceedings. My despatches to the Admiralty did not arrive till the middle of July. They had, however, previously approved of my conduct, although they had declared that they could not entertain the question with reference to promotion, as the despatches had not come to them. The despatches sent through the senior officer arrived at the Admiralty in July, and I was promoted in August.

6817. Were you promoted by the Admiralty with reference to those services?--No, I cannot say that; I think they may also have considered that as affording some claim, from the tone of letters which I have seen, not addressed to myself, by the Foreign and the Colonial Secretaries.

6818. But the approbation of the Colonial Secretary and of the Foreign Secretary was absolute?--It was absolute.

6819. And the approbation of the Admiralty may be inferred from the fact of your promotion?--That approbation was expressed, in the first instance, by them before they received the despatches, from what had appeared before Parliament.

6820. Mr. _Aldam_.] Has the Admiralty issued orders for other officers in similar cases to follow the same course?--I think the Admiralty has done so.

6821. Mr. _Forster_.] You wish the Committee distinctly to understand that you think such means as you resorted to would not have the effect of offering a bad example to the native chiefs, which they might imitate, and under some pretext or other to seize upon British property?--I think not; I think no example in the natives engaged in the slave trade can possibly make them worse than they are while such traffic is there pursued, nor is there a possibility of improvement until it is stopped.

6822. You think that, when the slave trade is once put down, British settlements planted at the parts where it has been carried on will keep it down?--I think eventually legitimate trade will keep it down; I do not limit it to British settlements only, although British settlements would undoubtedly have a good effect for that object.

6823. Then if a British settlement had been founded at the Gallinas on the completion of your operations there, you think the slave trade would have been permanently suppressed?--Undoubtedly I think so, if founded on good principles.

6824. In your last examination you spoke in terms of strong condemnation of the traders upon the coast having any commercial dealings with persons suspected of being engaged in the slave trade; now, without requiring from a naval commander an intimate or practical knowledge of the principles of commerce, it may nevertheless be reasonable to ask you, after the strong opinions you have expressed, how British trade in Africa could possibly be successfully carried on in competition with foreigners under any restrictions such as you have pointed at?--The restriction that I recommend is, that there should be such a change in the law as to enable us to seize and to condemn any vessel that trades with a notorious slave factory, there being no other trade but the slave trade there prosecuted; also, against the supply of slave ships with goods for the purposes of their traffic, and also against the sale of vessels calculated for the slave trade to slave dealers. In my opinion, those three practices should be stopped.

6825. Do you know Senor Caetano, at the Bissao?--I know who he is, well.

6826. You have stated in your former evidence, that Senor Caetano dealt both in produce and in slaves; how would you act in his case?--I have stated that it would be impossible to distinguish in such cases.

6827. You are aware that slavery and slave dealing are extensively carried on in Cuba?--Undoubtedly; the slave trade to a much diminished extent of late.

6828. And you are aware that it is equally the case in Brazil?--I am aware that it is also the case in the Brazils.

6829. And also in the southern states of the North American Union?--I have no reason to believe that any slave trade whatever exists there, except the slave trade from one part of the coast to another; I believe that no new slaves are introduced.

6830. Are you aware that they buy and sell slaves throughout the southern states of the Union?--Yes; I am speaking of the external slave trade; slavery implies the right of selling slaves within their territory; I mean that they have no external slave trade, to the best of my belief.

6831. Do you draw any distinction between slaves sold and shipped from Virginia to New Orleans, as compared with slaves shipped from the coast of Africa?--Unquestionably; they were at Virginia in the same condition as they are again at New Orleans; it is merely a change of locality in the same country or state, quite distinct from the African slave trade.

6832. Are the slaves shipped from the coast of Africa in the same condition in the West Indies as they were in previously to their being shipped from the coast of Africa?--No, decidedly they are not; they are in a very different condition in Africa from what they are in the West Indies; they are not equally slaves; their condition is entirely different. The whole bearing and meaning of the trade is as different as possible, in my opinion.

6833. Do you draw any distinction, in a moral point of view, between selling and shipping men from the state of Virginia to the Mississippi, as compared with selling and shipping men from Africa to the West Indies?--I consider the case is altogether different; as distinct as possible.

6834. Do you consider that there is any difference in a moral point of view?--Yes, I think there is a difference in a moral point of view. In my opinion, the distinction between commerce with slave states in America and commerce with slave factories in Africa is this: the commerce with the slave factories in Africa, in the cases I have before contemplated, goes there entirely for the purpose of purchasing and making men slaves: the commerce with the slave states of America has no such tendency whatever; the slaves are already property. In my opinion, there is the broadest distinction between the cases.

6835. Then you disapprove of selling goods to persons connected with the slave trade on the coast of Africa, not on account of the moral difference of the act, but on account of the difference of the tendency and consequences of that act?--I consider that, in every case, the dealings of British merchants with slave dealers, although their produce trade may be mixed with the slave trade, is, in a very high degree, objectionable and improper; but, at the same time, I do not think that we can separate them; I do not think it would be politic, or for the benefit of Africa, or for the cause that England has in hand, to endeavour to carry the distinction between them too far.

6836. But if it be wrong or immoral to have dealings with persons engaged in the slave trade, is it not equally wrong for a British merchant to ship and sell goods to a slave merchant in Cuba and Brazil, as it is to sell goods to a slave dealer on the coast of Africa, so far as the moral question is concerned?--I think so, decidedly, supposing those goods are intended to go into the slave trade, and it is known that they will go into the slave trade.

6837. Are you not aware, from your observation on the coast, that most of the goods, if not all, the cotton goods in particular, brought to the coast of Africa by Spanish and Portuguese slave dealers, are manufactured in this country?--I am perfectly aware of it; I consider this highly objectionable, in the same way as the mixed trade upon the coast is; but I do not think it would be wise to interfere with it.

6838. The Committee cannot but highly appreciate and deeply sympathise with your benevolent feelings on this subject; but do you consider yourself sufficiently familiar with the searching effects of commerce, to pronounce a sound opinion on the collateral tendency of trade to supersede the slave trade on the coast of Africa, even when carried on with persons connected with the slave trade?--I consider myself perfectly qualified to give opinions, so far as I have given them. The opinions I have given, I feel myself perfectly qualified to give, and to support.

6839. _Chairman._] You do not see any indirect advantage in dealing with persons solely engaged in the slave trade, by means of lawful goods, sufficient to counterbalance the direct evil of the facilities given by that means to the slave trade?--The case of the Gallinas, I think, is a perfect answer to the question; no good whatever is derived from the exchange of the commodities of the civilized world for slaves. There is no export of produce in that district of the coast. I conceive that this commerce has no good effect whatever.

6840. You think it promotes no industry?--On the contrary, it annihilates it.

6841. Mr. _Forster_.] You have stated that there has been no British commerce carried on there to any extent?--In the Return which I have already referred to, in the 14th page of this correspondence, is given an account of the trade which formerly did exist, and which, under the withering influence of the slave trade, has been utterly destroyed. There is no doubt that there was considerable export trade at one time from the Gallinas; they exported rice, and they exported produce. Now they are obliged to import rice to feed themselves; cattle, which were formerly abundant, are now hardly to be procured, and then only at an enormous expense. They used to get cattle from Sierra Leone. Indeed, the only case I know of any communication with Sierra Leone, while I was last on the coast, was, in one or two instances of very small boats, not above six or seven tons, which had in one instance cattle and sheep on board. In the second instance I did not search her.

6842. You have stated that the Gallinas has been principally supplied with goods for the slave trade by foreign ships, and not by British traders?--That has been my statement.

6843. You have stated also that you would have felt it your duty to prevent English trading vessels entering there?--Under certain circumstances, which I have detailed.

6844. Are you not of opinion that if British commerce had been encouraged there, and more particularly if a British settlement had been formed there, British commerce would have been of material assistance in discountenancing and putting down the slave trade at the Gallinas?--Legitimate commerce at the Gallinas has been eradicated and annihilated by the sole influence of the slave trade. It existed there, and the slave trade annihilated it. Had a British settlement been formed there, the results might have been different.

6845. _Chairman._] Do you think the results would have been different if the same goods had been brought by English ships carrying on the same trade as the foreign ships?--I do not see, had they been brought in the same way as the goods were brought in the foreign ships, how any difference would have been made. It would have been the same unmixed evil as it has been when carried on under the American flag.

6846. Mr. _Forster._] Then it is only by the formation of British settlements that you think the advantages of British commerce could be fully realized there?--I think the advantages of legitimate commerce will commence when they make their minds up that the slave trade will no longer supply them with what they have been hitherto accustomed to receive, and that that might be further assisted by the formation of a settlement, I have no doubt whatever.

6847. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] Have you any means of knowing how the slaves in the barracoons at the Gallinas were procured for the slave market; whether they were born in slavery, or were made slaves for the mere purpose of sale?--The fact that the general system of society in Africa is slavery, I believe is universally admitted. Those people were brought down from the interior to meet the demand upon the coast.

6848. Do you mean the Committee to understand that in your opinion they were born slaves, and brought up to the slave market, or that, having been free, they were made slaves for the slave market?--In my opinion they were all born in a state of domestic slavery, answering to a sort of villeinage in the early periods of our own history. But my belief is, that no African chief dare sell his domestic slaves in this way, except occasionally under the pretence of crimes committed, or of debts owing; they are generally, I fancy, either kidnapped or taken in wars, or in the ways I before mentioned.