Chapter IV: Part 4

5012. Then no vessels are brought in for adjudication to Sierra Leone but Dutch and Portuguese, and Spanish and Brazilian vessels?--Not for adjudication by the mixed commission; but there is the vice-admiralty court, which under the late act relating to Portugal, for the suppression of the slave trade, takes cognizance of vessels under that flag which are captured; and may take cognizance of any vessels under any flag that are captured in British waters, wherever they are taken, whether at Sierra Leone, or the Gambia, or any British settlement on the coast, and that has been rather frequent of late.

5013. The mixed commission court has jurisdiction over all cases which are brought within the limits of the treaty with Portugal, and the Vice-Admiralty Court in the Portuguese cases, over which we have assumed jurisdiction by Act of Parliament, that is to say, all cases of vessels captured south of the Line?--Yes; it is optional still for the captor to prosecute a Portuguese vessel, captured under the Act of Parliament, before the admiralty court, if he chooses, instead of bringing her before the mixed commission court, but the process is so much more summary with us, and the expense so much less, that that option is seldom taken.

5014. Will you proceed to explain what is the process which is pursued when a slaver is brought into Sierra Leone for adjudication?--Whenever a vessel appears in the harbour under any of the flags of which we can take cognizance, the marshal of the court goes on board, and he receives from the prizemaster who is on board an account of the capture, which he fills into a printed form, and he sends one of those printed forms to each of the judges, and one to the governor, immediately; in fact, generally before the vessel comes to anchor, and then the court is made aware of the vessel being in the harbour, and is prepared to make arrangements for the landing of the slaves, if there are any, generally the morning after its arrival, if it comes in the evening, or if it comes in early in the morning, the same day. The proctor for the captor brings the papers of the vessel before the court, and they are always accompanied by a declaration of the captor. All the forms of the court are very much the same as those of the Admiralty Court in England. If there are slaves, the proctor petitions for the admission of the vessel into court, and generally accompanies that by a petition to land the slaves; and since I have been there, in every case of inquiry the slaves were landed and handed over to the superintendent of the African department pending the investigation, and held in their character of slaves during the time that the vessel was passing through the court. The proctor then produces his witnesses, and they are examined upon printed interrogatories, which have been used ever since the court was formed. These questions are framed with a view to make out a case, and they always do prove slave dealing wherever it has existed, if the witness answers truly; and in an ordinary case, where slaves are on board, no defence is ever attempted, it is out of the question. Then as soon as the evidence is given, generally by the captain and one of the officers of the captured vessel, the proctor prays for publication; and when the monition which issues in the first instance, calling upon any persons to bring forward a claim if they have any against the capture, or to show cause why the vessel should not be condemned, is returned, trial is prayed for, and it takes place on an early day after arrival of the vessel; in an undefended case, and where the capture has been made properly by the man-of-war, the vessel is condemned, the slaves are emancipated at the same time; a commission of appraisement and sale issues, which directs the particular officer of the court who has the duty of conducting the auctions to expose both the vessel and the goods, and any thing that may be on board, to public auction, after due notice given. Those things are then sold, and the proceeds are divided equally between the British Government and the foreign government, and the proceeds are then paid into the commissariat, which settles with the Government at home, and they pay the money, or set it off against any claim they may have against the foreign government; but the foreign government has a claim to one-half the proceeds of the vessels and cargoes.

5015. Is there any large proportion of cases in which condemnation does not follow, and under what circumstances principally has condemnation not been the consequence?--There have been vessels restored for being seized, for instance, Portuguese vessels from the southward of the Line, contrary to treaty. In two cases there were vessels restored with upwards of 8,000_l._ damages against the captors in each case, making 16,000_l._; and there was again one case of the Pepita, which I remember, when it was proved that the slaves had been embarked under circumstances that would not justify condemnation under the treaty; she was restored with damages. There have been several cases under the equipment article since the new slave treaty came into force, where vessels have been restored because the equipment was not deemed sufficient to warrant condemnation. There have been also vessels taken on the suspicion that black persons on board were slaves, who have been proved to be domestics, and not bought for the purpose of the traffic. There have been a variety of condemnations; but in any case where the treaty would not warrant condemnation, the vessel has been restored; and where the treaty required it, restored with damages.

5016. Have there been a considerable number of restorations; can you state, from statistics, the number?--I have statistics for two years; from the 1st of January to the 31st of December 1838, one vessel only was liberated.

5017. What number were condemned?--Forty-one; during the year 1839 there were two liberated, and 45 condemned; and in addition to those, there was a very large number of American vessels which were seized, with American papers on board, and which I refused to receive into court at all; there were some in 1838, and there was a large number in 1839.

5018. Can you state the number?--I think the number was 13; but the reports of the whole of those cases are in the Parliamentary Papers.

5019. Were they _bonâ fide_ American?--I believe not American, in any one case, but sailing under the American flag, and with American papers, supplied to them by American authority.

5020. Where?--Almost entirely, I think, without one exception, at Havannah.

5021. Supplied by the American consul?--Yes; but I considered that as they sailed with those American papers, however wrongfully they might have been given by the American authority, we had no right to interfere with them.

5022. Mr. _Forster_.] Have not some vessels belonging to the States been condemned?--Yes; since my time.

5023. You were not a party to the condemnation?--I was not.

5024. Mr. _W. Patten_.] But in those cases which you mention, you had not the slightest doubt in the world that they would have been condemned if they had not American papers on board?--Certainly they would, with the exception of one case, which seemed to be a sort of experimental seizure: it was known that almost every vessel on the coast under the American flag, at that time was a Spanish vessel in disguise; and this vessel seems to have been seized in the hope that the captain and officers might be able to prove, by some evidence found on board, that she was really Spanish; but though we had access to the papers, we found nothing that would have condemned her if she had been prosecuted in the court; there was a deficiency of papers on board; the captain, perhaps had either destroyed them or concealed them, and we could not get at the proof that would have enabled us to condemn her as being a Spanish vessel; but none of the cases I speak of were prosecuted; I would not allow them to be libelled in court.

5025. So that those cases do not appear upon the records of the court?--No; but I took the opportunity of examining the papers, and sending home all the particulars to the Foreign-office, and the papers are copied in the Parliamentary Returns.

5026. Mr. _Forster_.] Will those seizures be matter of complaint on the part of the owners?--I do not know that any of those seizures have been matter of complaint; some of the seizures made subsequently have been.

5027. Seizures of vessels belonging to the United States?--Yes; but none of those that came before me have been made matter of complaint.

5028. Are you aware that there are several cases of condemnation that have been the subject of remonstrance with the British Government by the United States?--I believe the whole of them are.

5029. _Chairman._] You have not heard that they complain of vessels being brought in for condemnation to Sierra Leone which you did not allow to be libelled in court?--No, except as regards the general right which was exercised. There has been no complaint with respect to a particular vessel, so far as I know; but complaints have been made of the right which was exercised by cruizers on the coast to board any American vessel and search it.

5030. Mr. _Aldam_.] Has the practice of the court been changed since your time?--Yes, it was changed the day that I left; there was an American vessel waiting at Sierra Leone for adjudication the day I left, and the officer suspecting, that if presented to me, I should refuse her in the same way as I had done the others, detained her till I left, and she was condemned by my successor under orders from Lord Palmerston.

5031. Then the orders from Lord Palmerston changed the practice of the court?--Yes.

5032. Do you know the nature of those orders?--The orders appear in the printed correspondence.

5033. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Can you state briefly the nature of the orders?--His Lordship stated that the Queen’s advocate was of opinion that the court was justified in making use of information obtained by the search of vessels under the American flag. The court had decided, that having no right to search vessels sailing as American, and recognised as American by American authorities, they could not make use of any information which they obtained by unauthorised and illegal acts, and Lord Palmerston considered that they had a right.

5034. _Chairman._] You held that the papers protected the vessel?--I did.

5035. Mr. _Forster_.] Then it is those condemnations which are appealed against at present by the American government?--I have not seen any appeal of the American government except against the general right exercised by the British cruizers.

5036. The complaint is, of seizing vessels as connected with the slave trade, which, from their papers, ought not to have been subject to that suspicion?--I am not aware of any appeal in any case of that kind.

5037. Mr. _Aldam_.] Have any vessels with strictly American papers been condemned?--You can hardly call them strictly American papers where the papers have been applied for, and given through fraud. The American authorities at the Havannah who gave them, knew very well that the vessel had no more claim to be styled an American vessel than a Dutch vessel.

5038. _Chairman._] But as far as the documents themselves showed, those vessels were American?--Yes, they had an American register, just in the same form as any vessel sailing from New York, or Baltimore; indeed it was a copy of the same document.

5039. What indication was there in other papers taken, to lead you to know that the property was not _bonâ fide_ American?--It appeared, from the very strict overhauling these vessels received from the cruizers, that in many of those cases there were papers on board showing that the man who appeared as the American captain was only a passenger, and that the 30 Spanish passengers who took out passengers’ licences at Havannah were the real crew; and there were also instructions, found on board, to the pretended captain, what he was to answer to the cruizers when they boarded him. The whole thing was a complete fraud without any doubt whatever. There were many of those cases where it was quite plain that the vessels were only Spaniards in disguise; that they only kept the American flag until their cargo was ready. In some cases the vessels that were boarded one day by the cruizers under the American flag, were boarded two or three days afterwards with the Portuguese or Spanish flag hoisted, and full of slaves.

5040. And condemned?--Yes.

5041. What was the object of hoisting the Spanish or Portuguese flag?--If the vessels had been captured by a British cruizer with the American flag hoisted, he would have carried them into America; and if he did carry them into America, every man on board would have been hung as a pirate.

5042. Had he authority to do so?--It _was_ done; the American authorities did not complain of it.

5043. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Were they hung in that case?--No, there were no slaves on board.

5044. Mr. _Aldam_.] Every ship of war has a right to capture a pirate?--Yes.

5045. The law of the United States recognizes slavery as piracy?--Yes, but it is not piracy by the law of nations, and indeed our own courts have decided most positively on that point, that the slave trade is not piracy by the law of nations; that it can only be punished by the municipal law of the particular country to which the vessel belongs.

5046. Mr. _Forster_.] The class of condemnations to which you have alluded are different from the cases which have taken place since you left, under the direction of Lord Palmerston?--No condemnations took place before the 1st of January, 1840; there were vessels condemned by me that were captured under the American flag, and with American papers, but they were taken in British waters, where British ships had a right to visit and search the vessel, and the captor might make use of any information he obtained in the search: when apparent American vessels were boarded on the high seas, we deemed that the captor had not that authority.

5047. _Chairman._] What do you consider British waters on the coast of Africa; what would you for instance, on the Gold Coast, consider British waters?--The waters of a nation are those within gun-shot of the shore; generally reckoned three miles; it is the same all over the world.

5048. With regard to the Gold Coast, you are aware that our settlements consist of several forts; do you consider the whole line of coast, from end to end, along which our forts are planted, to be British water?--No, for there are foreign forts there mixed with ours; but in every case we have the sovereignty over three miles of the sea from our own possession, wherever it may be, and the only ports to which a vessel could go, have forts attached to them; a vessel lying at Accra, or lying at Cape Coast, would be within three miles of the fort.

5049. If she was sailing along the coast, should you consider her to be in British waters?--Where an indefinite authority is exercised along a line of coast, without any real right, I do not consider those British waters.

5050. You would consider as British waters only those which were a certain distance from the fort?--Yes; the difficulty occurred in the case of the Jack Wilding, one of the richest prizes that was made during the year 1839; she was seized lying in British Accra roadstead, and she was under the American flag; she was brought up to Sierra Leone, and defended, on the ground that, though the vessel was in British waters, she was within three miles of the Dutch fort, but we considered that that could not make any difference, that we could not allow slave trading within three miles of any acknowledged British fort, and we condemned the vessel.

5051. Have you seen practical evil arise from the mixed commission being fixed at Sierra Leone?--No, certainly not.

5052. Not as to the health of the slaves in the length of the voyage from the place of seizure to the place of condemnation?--I believe that there is a great misapprehension on this subject, which would be corrected by a mere reference to the statistics of the trade; there seems to be an impression that a very great majority of the cases of capture are made to the eastward of Cape Palmas, and in the bights, but a large number have been taken for many years past, and might always have been taken, to the westward of Cape Palmas, and in the neighbourhood of Sierra Leone.

5053. Is there any statement of the length of voyage of each vessel from the time of its seizure to the time of its condemnation?--I do not think there is any table drawn out; but in the printed reports the times and places of capture are stated, which comes to the same thing; because, where the vessels are captured in the immediate neighbourhood of Sierra Leone, the voyage is very short, and in going through the reports the number of days can be calculated. In the detailed reports which are given of each case, the date of the capture is always mentioned, and the date of arrival at Sierra Leone. In some cases the vessels are delayed after capture, and you could not get an exact account; but in most cases the difference between the date of capture and the date of arrival would be the length of voyage.

5054. Mr. _Forster_.] Has not the great bulk of the seizures been made in the bights and to the eastward of Cape Palmas?--Not a very large majority during the last year, and before that a large portion were made to the westward of Cape Palmas; and if that part of the coast had had the number of cruizers that it ought to have had, there would have been a much larger number of captures made there.

5055. _Chairman._] You think that the slave trade has gone on with greater intensity to the westward of Cape Palmas?--With great intensity in the Gallinas, which was unnoticed for some years; and, indeed, that part of the coast was utterly neglected. The admiral and commanding officers seemed to fancy that the slave trade could only be carried on in the bights, but a great deal of slave trade was carried on to the westward.

5056. Where?--In Gallinas, principally, New Sesters, Sherboro’; those are the principal ports in that part; there are others smaller.

5057. For all those ports, of course, Sierra Leone you consider to be the most advantageous position?--Certainly.

5058. Mr. _Forster_.] But in speaking of the amount of slave trade carried on at those places which you have just named, do you speak of those in comparison with the bights, and also with the Spanish and Portuguese settlements to the south of the Line?--I speak of the amount of captures that have been made there. The south was left very nearly in the same state in which the north was. The cruizing of the squadron was almost entirely confined to the bights.

5059. To the south of the Line they could not cruize, could they?--Yes, they could cruize near the Portuguese settlements, for the court practically got over the article in the treaty under which captures were forbidden to the southward of the Line, by establishing, which they did in 1838, the principle, that the national character of any vessel was to be taken from the residence of the owner, the place where he carried on his mercantile business, and also from the course of trade in which the vessel was engaged; and as there could be no foreign Portuguese slave trade, for Portugal has no colonies to supply with slaves, we were sure to make the vessel either Brazilian or Spanish. She was captured under Portuguese colours, and with Portuguese papers, but the treaty had given us a right to search her any where, either north or south; it had not given us the right to detain her south of the Line, if she was _bonâ fide_ Portuguese; but if captured as a Portuguese vessel under the Portuguese flag, and with Portuguese papers, she was sent up to Sierra Leone, and was almost certain to be condemned either as a Brazilian or a Spaniard.

5060. That decision was come to in 1838?--Yes.

5061. Before that time the impression had prevailed that the slave trade from the Portuguese settlements was protected?--There was no seizure to the south of the Line to render a decision necessary; vessels were seized immediately close to the Line, in several cases, and it was never thought of; that was before the Portuguese flag was so much used, and the cause of the Portuguese flag being so much used by slavers, was the Spanish treaty having given the right to seize, on the ground of equipment; that did not take place till 1836. I was at home in that year, and on my return in December 1837, I found that almost every vessel on the coast was sailing under Portuguese colours, and then we met this new circumstance by an alteration in the interpretation of the treaty.

5062. Mr. _Aldam_.] If the owner had been a _bonâ fide_ Portuguese, would the vessel have been still condemned?--If the owner had been a Portuguese, resident in Havannah, we should have treated the vessel as a Spanish vessel; and if at Rio Janeiro, we should have treated it as a Brazilian vessel.

5063. But in the case of a Portuguese merchant resident in a Portuguese possession, and carrying on his business there?--We should have looked at the course of trade in which the vessel was engaged, and the Portuguese having no colonies would not require slaves.

5064. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider the Spanish and Portuguese settlements to the south of the Line the places at which the slave trade will be last overcome?--The part of the coast at which the slave trade is carried on depends entirely on the cruizers; you may knock up the slave trade on any part of the coast you please, if the cruizing is properly conducted. The largest slave trade on the coast was the slave trade at the Gallinas; by the system of blockade that Captain Denman adopted there, he completely destroyed it.

5065. That blockade must be continued to make it permanent in its results?--Yes; and he never went away for water or provisions, without leaving a vessel to supply his place. He could always regulate the time that he should remain, knowing of course, to a day, how long his water and provisions would last him.

5066. But to render that remedy effectual and permanent, vessels of war must continue at the Gallinas?--Yes; but if you blockade the rivers, where the slave trade has been carried on for a number of years, and completely shut up the slave trade for a year or two, you destroy the system of slave trade in that part.

5067. _Chairman._] You think the machinery cannot be re-established in that part?--It may be re-established, but in the meantime there is no mart for the slaves; they are brought down and lodged in the barracoons, and the feeding of the slaves completely ruins the slave owner.

5068. Mr. _Forster_.] What is there to prevent the system being resumed there unless you continue the blockade of the place?--There is nothing.

5069. Then it is upon the blockade of the settlements that the success of the cruizers depends, and not upon the destruction of the barracoons?--Exactly; by blockade, I do not mean shutting out legitimate trade, but preventing any vessel fitted for the slave trade going in, and preventing any vessel with slaves coming out.

5070. _Chairman._] Do you believe that if you blockade a port, materially interfering with the slave trade for a considerable period, you obstruct it even for some time afterwards?--I think you do; and I think the people are so accustomed to the goods which they procure from slave dealers that they will get them if they can by other means.

5071. Then you think, that if you can blockade for a certain time, and put an end to the power of procuring what the natives desire by the slave trade, that their taste will have to be gratified by lawful traffic, and that that will make it less necessary for them afterwards to have recourse to the slave trade?--Certainly.

5072. Mr. _Forster_.] By such destruction as took place in the case of Gallinas, do you not interfere with the course of the legitimate trade, as well as with the course of the slave trade?--I am not speaking of the destruction of a settlement.

5073. Had not the operations of Captain Denman the effect of destroying the stores, and in fact the whole settlement?--He destroyed the barracoons; but no one ever kept in barracoons any thing but slaves.

5074. Was not also a considerable property in merchandize destroyed?--Yes, so it appears by the Parliamentary papers. At that time there was no trade whatever carried on at Gallinas except in slaves; there was no legitimate trade at all, I believe.

5075. Do you mean that there was no legitimate trade carried on at the Gallinas previous to the destruction of that place by Captain Denman?--I believe, none whatever; there was certainly none with its nearest large port, which was Sierra Leone; the only trade carried on between the two places was of a very questionable character.

5076. Were not Hamburg vessels and other foreign vessels constantly in the habit of visiting Gallinas for the purpose of legitimate trade previous to the destruction of the settlement?--I am not aware that they did.

5077. I thought you told the Committee in a late answer, that there was no legitimate trade carried on there?--From Sierra Leone; but whether Hamburg vessels went direct to Gallinas, I do not know; from Sierra Leone, I do not believe that any legitimate trade was carried on with the Gallinas.

5078. What opportunities had you at Sierra Leone of knowing the course of trade to Gallinas?--I was in Sierra Leone, where there were a large number of small coasting vessels employed, and those who brought back produce did not go to Gallinas for it.

5079. But had you any opportunity of knowing the nature and extent of the legitimate trade there by foreign vessels, independently of Sierra Leone?--No; but I have always understood, (it is only from hearsay I mention this,) from the men-of-war on the coast, that every vessel they have found lying in the harbour there, has been engaged in the slave trade in some way or other, as American vessels bringing over goods from the Havannah for the supply of factories, or bringing out equipments to be carried away by slavers when they were full.

5080. You have stated that previously to the destruction of Gallinas by Captain Denman, no trade had been carried on between the Gallinas and Sierra Leone, except such as was of a very questionable nature?--I have.

5081. Was that questionable trade to a considerable extent?--No, not with Sierra Leone; but trading vessels that came along the coast have called at Sierra Leone, and gone down the coast afterwards, and probably put into Gallinas amongst other ports; but directly with Sierra Leone the trade was very little indeed.

5082. Up to what period did this questionable trade between Sierra Leone and Gallinas continue?--It continued as long as I was connected with the colony, that is, to the 31st of December, 1839; but we always looked with suspicion upon any merchant there that was connected with that place.

5083. Is it within your knowledge that up to that time the slave dealers, by themselves, or their agents, were in the habit of frequenting Sierra Leone, and making purchases there for the supply of Gallinas?--They generally made their purchases, I believe, through some merchant resident at Sierra Leone; one in particular; they generally had one merchant at a time, I believe, who was employed by them.

5084. _Chairman._] Making purchases of prize goods?--Yes, and sometimes of vessels; a vessel that might be put up to auction there he would bid for, and have it sent down to Gallinas; and I have no doubt goods also.

5085. Was he a white merchant, or a black, who was so employed?--He was a white merchant, an English merchant.

5086. Who was he?--The name is mentioned in the Parliamentary Papers, as being connected with the purchase of a slave vessel, Mr. Kidd; and it is mentioned in connection with that of Mr. Zulueta, of London.

5087. Can you refer to the passage?--It appears at the 38th page of the class (B.) of the papers on the subject of the slave trade, presented to Parliament 1839-40. Zulueta, the gentleman in London to whom the vessel was sent, and who sold her again to her former Spanish owner, is a name well known on the coast in connexion with the slave trade; any man ought to have been careful of being connected with such a person as that. I have seen the same vessels over and over again in the slave trade; you can detect them when you get accustomed to the form and build of the vessels.

5088. Mr. _Forster_.] Were not those vessels sold to the best bidder?--Yes.

5089. Do not you think that the fault was with those who sold them originally, and not those who bought them?--No; you are not bound to suppose that a man will make a bad use of that which he purchases.

5090. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Are those vessels generally bought by the same person?--Mr. Kidd purchased vessels only during the latter part of the time I was there, for he was not in the colony when I first went there; he was looked upon as the person employed by the Gallinas slave dealers to transact their business at Sierra Leone.

5091. _Chairman._] To purchase vessels and goods?--Yes.

5092. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Is Mr. Kidd the person you alluded to just now, who generally purchased the vessels at auction?--No, they were generally purchased by various people; he purchased a few of them.

5093. Mr. _Forster_.] Would Mr. Zulueta, if he had entered the auction-room, have been at liberty to bid for the purchase of that vessel?--Certainly; by the treaty it is required that the goods seized shall be exposed to public auction for the benefit of the two governments.

5094. How do you make it out to be criminal in Mr. Kidd to do that which it was innocent for the auctioneer on the part of the British Government to do?--The auctioneer is required to do it by his duty, he is appointed for that purpose under the Act of Parliament; he sells to any body who will purchase; of course, the responsibility of the employment of the purchase rests with the purchaser.

5095. Then it is the fault of the Government, not of the auctioneer?--It is not the fault of the auctioneer; nor do I consider it any fault of the British Government; it is no fault to purchase goods, but to use them unlawfully is wrong; it is the use which he makes of the vessel after purchasing it that is wrong.

5096. How could it be criminal in Mr. Kidd to sell the vessel to Mr. Zulueta when you see no fault in the British Government doing the same thing?--The British Government is obliged to do it under the treaty; there is no compulsion on Mr. Kidd to sell his vessel to a slave dealer, he may sell it to any body.

5097. According to that doctrine, the British Government is obliged to act criminally?--No, certainly not; I do not think it follows. The treaty requires that goods and vessels shall be exposed at auction; the responsibility of the employment of those goods or vessels which are sold, I think, rests with the purchaser; he may employ them lawfully, and I have purchased a vessel at auction myself, in former days, when I was engaged in business; but if I had taken that vessel and sold her to a slave dealer, I should think that I did wrong.

5098. But you admit that the public auctioneer would have sold the same vessel to the same party whom Mr. Kidd sold her to?--Certainly.

5099. _Chairman._] You meant to say that the auctioneer had no choice to whom he should sell her, and Mr. Kidd had?--The auctioneer had no choice; the Act is imperative, and requires him to sell to the highest bidder, for the benefit of the two governments.

5100. Mr. _Aldam_.] Did Mr. Kidd sell his vessel to a slave dealer or to a Spanish house, who subsequently sold it to a slave dealer?--It appears in some of the records that in some cases he sold vessels direct to the slave dealers.

5101 Are those vessels worth more to a slave dealer than if used for any other purpose?--Certainly.

5102. How then is it possible to prevent the ships being applied to that purpose for which they are worth more than for any other?--Spanish ships are prevented from being used for the trade by being cut up when they are condemned.

5103. Mr. _Evans_.] But you have no power of doing so with the Portuguese ships?--No.

5104. Mr. _Aldam_.] Those vessels, from their small size, are not worth much for other trades?--There are some trades that they are adapted for, the fruit trade for instance, and they are employed in the smuggling of opium and such trades as those; they are not capable of carrying large burdens.

5105. In all cases it will answer the purpose of the merchant to give a larger price for those ships to be employed in the slave trade than for any other purpose?--Yes, probably.

5106. Viscount _Ebrington_.] Have you ever considered what the result would be of the British Government buying those ships in?--It would be impossible to buy them all in.

5107. All that are not liable to be broken up?--No. During last year, for instance, the number condemned was so large, that the Government, if they had bought them, could not have found a use for them.

5108. Mr. _Forster_.] Have you any doubt that those vessels have been sometimes knocked down by the auctioneer to agents of the slave traders on the coast?--It may have been so, and I have no doubt it has; I do not recollect a case at present, but I would have insisted upon it, as head of the court, that it should have been knocked down to any one who made the highest bid.

5109. It is your opinion also, that the prize goods have been frequently sold in the like manner?--Some portion of them, but certainly not the bulk of them.

5110. Was there any thing to prevent the whole of them being sold to the slave dealers, or the agent of the slave dealers?--Nothing whatever.

5111. Had you opportunities of observing, up to the time you left Sierra Leone, whether the agents of the slave dealers on the neighbouring coast frequently appeared in the market of Sierra Leone as purchasers of goods or vessels?--Not often; if the goods came into their hands it was through a third person generally. I have heard of Spaniards going down, and bidding for the vessels, but it was not an ordinary occurrence.

5112. Then you are of opinion that usually slave dealers at Gallinas did not visit Sierra Leone for the purpose of making purchases of goods or vessels?--Not in their own persons, they may have done it through a third party; but, perhaps, it would shorten the questions to state that the greater portion of the goods sold at the auctions captured from vessels in the slave trade were purchased by liberated Africans, by the hawkers there, and they made the best use of them. That a certain portion of the goods so purchased at auctions may get into the hands of slave dealers afterwards, is very possible; but I am convinced, from the description of goods which are sold, which may be used in lawful trade, and from the different appearance of the whole colony since goods were sold so extensively, that the greater portion of them are consumed in the colony, and are made use of in the lawful trade, by liberated Africans in the neighbourhood. I consider that the colony has been very much benefited indeed by those sales; that the condition of the liberated Africans has been very much improved by them, as has been very evident from the great wealth that has been stirring among them; and the liberated Africans have now not only completely bought out the Maroons and settlers, who were the original settlers of the place, but are gradually driving out the white merchants; and I think it a very great advantage, for they are able to live much more cheaply than the white men can do; they carry on their business at one hundredth part of the expense, and turn their money over very much more quickly.

5113. Are any precautions taken by the authorities at Sierra Leone to prevent slave dealers obtaining goods at Sierra Leone, either by public auction or in any other manner?--Certainly not.

5114. Mr. _W. Patten_.] You have stated that there was an illicit trade going on between Sierra Leone and Gallinas; are there any other circumstances than those you have mentioned, that you can adduce in proof of that?--None; in the trade that has been just referred to, of Spaniards and Portuguese at Gallinas sending up to purchase goods at auctions, they have done so, and they have been sent down to them through a third party, but it is seldom they appear themselves.

5115. You do not, of your own knowledge, know what is the connection between Mr. Kidd and any individuals at Gallinas?--No.

5116. Nor of any other merchant at Sierra Leone?--No.

5117. Do you believe that they act as commission merchants to purchase goods?--Yes; I suppose on commission.

5118. Is there any trade carried on by any merchant on his own account with the Gallinas?--I should think that very likely too; but it is impossible to know, for after vessels have gone outside the Cape they may carry their goods any where: you do not know what becomes of them.

5119. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you think it would be desirable to impose any restriction upon legitimate trade to Gallinas?--I think not; I think no restriction upon trade should be imposed, even on the intercourse between the two places.

5120. Mr. _W. Patten_.] How would you distinguish the legitimate from the illegitimate trade?--You cannot distinguish it; and there I think the danger lies of attempting to interfere with intercourse.

5121. Mr. _Forster_.] And therefore, in attempting to check or impede the one, you would do more harm than good in repressing and discouraging the other?--I think it very probable; I think it would be quite impossible to draw the line.

5122. But supposing it to be possible, do you think it would be, in fact, desirable to take any measures which would have the effect of checking the progress of legitimate trade?--Certainly not.

5123. Were there any Hamburgh vessels condemned at Sierra Leone?--Not in my time.

5124. Mr. _Hamilton_.] Do you think that the establishing such a blockade on the coast as you have alluded to just now, would have the effect of interfering with legitimate trade?--No, not such a blockade as I alluded to; I think the natives are well aware of the design for which the cruizers are on the coast, they would consider their presence rather as a protection, than otherwise, to the legitimate trade.

5125. Mr. _Forster_.] Were not large quantities of tobacco and rum sold at Sierra Leone from the prize vessels conveyed there leeward for sale to the Sierra Leone merchants?--Yes; I believe there were several cargoes of Brazilian tobacco and of spirits sent down the coast: I believe, principally to Badagry and that neighbourhood.

5126. That tobacco was, of course, especially imported on the coast for the purpose of the slave trade?--It was taken out of slave vessels; therefore, of course, it was.

5127. When it arrived at Badagry, it would consequently be very acceptable to slave dealers there?--Yes; but they had to pay for it.

5128. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Did you find when you were at Sierra Leone that the price paid for goods at auctions exceeded or was below the price of goods imported in other ways?--The necessary effect of such large quantities of goods being thrown on the market, and compelled to be sold at any rate to the highest bidder, was of course to lower the price; and I consider that the very cheap rate at which the liberated Africans were able to procure those goods, which, in former times, they could only obtain at a high price, was what formed the advantage which they derived from those sales.

5129. How do you account for it, that the merchants at Sierra Leone do not themselves purchase those goods?--They have not the money; in fact, they have no money at all. There are only one or two men that have any money in the place; they are almost all men who receive their goods from houses in England; they are generally very much in debt to the persons who send goods to them; and the only parties who have money in the colony, with the exception of two gentlemen, are liberated Africans, and many of the latter have very large sums.

5130. Mr. _Forster_.] Has the trade at Sierra Leone not, in your opinion, been a successful trade for some years?--It has been a successful trade for the liberated Africans.

5131. The question applied to British traders?--I cannot say; I have not been engaged in trade myself during that time; but I should think that the English traders must have suffered by the goods which were thrown on the market from slave vessels, whilst they had goods which were purchased at a much dearer rate to dispose of, and had not the money to purchase the low-priced goods there. But one case I can mention, where a white merchant at Sierra Leone had the funds to go into the market and compete with the liberated Africans; he has made a great deal of money by it, and the more in consequence of his means being so superior to those of the Africans; but that was because he had money: the losses of the others were because they had none.

5132. You have spoken of the advantages to the black population from the sale of those goods, which have led them to become hawkers and pedlars in the neighbouring country; it is the fact that the natives of Africa are very much disposed to that species of employment in preference to agricultural labour?--It certainly is so at Sierra Leone.

5133. Then the advantages derived from the encouragement thus given to them to embark in that species of employment in preference to the fixed pursuits of agriculture may be questionable on that ground?--I think not; I think if the liberated African can get money and can educate his family well, and procure all that he wants by trade, it is just as well as if he procured it by agriculture.

5134. Have you found them practically carrying on any regular system of agriculture voluntarily?--Not for export: there have been some articles cultivated, but to no very great extent: ginger, and pepper, and cassada, but cultivation has not been carried to any great extent for export at Sierra Leone.

5135. How do you account for cultivation and improvement having made so little progress in Sierra Leone after all the efforts of the party in this country, and all the money which has been expended upon it?--I doubt the proposition contained in the question; I think that they have made progress.

5136. Planting and cultivation is carried on there to a great extent?--No, it is not; but the people have other means of procuring what they require.

5137. Have any means been taken, or if taken, have they been successful, for promoting any regular system of agriculture or planting in the neighbourhood of Sierra Leone?--No, I think not, and I am very sorry for it; I think more might have been done in the way of premiums upon produce, and giving prizes for successful cultivation.

5138. In fact, has any thing been done in that way?--Nothing whatever, I believe, of late years. There was an agricultural society that existed many years before I went to the colony, which offered premiums, but the members of it died, and the scheme fell to the ground.

5139. The attempts of that society, in fact, were not successful?--No; it was before my time; I cannot speak positively to the efforts that were made; it is a great many years ago now.

5140. Can you distinguish the amount of captures to the south and north of the Line?--Yes; in 1838, 15 out of 30 vessels, either were captured, or took on board their slaves to the westward of Cape Palmas, or one-third of the vessels which were detained with full cargoes of slaves on board, or four out of seven, if we only look to the vessels detained in the West Indies. The whole, or very nearly, of the slave trade carried on in the north, or rather west of Cape Palmas, is for the supply of the island of Cuba, and generally on account of the Havannah merchants. In the following year, “of the 61 vessels which passed through the courts during the year 1839, three were captured in the West Indies, the remainder on this coast, eight to the southward of the Line, but none below the latitude of 4 deg. 58 min. south, and of 50 vessels captured north of the Line, 30 were met with to the eastward and 20 to the westward of Cape Palmas.”

5141. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Does not the return distinguish from what part of the coast those vessels came?--Yes; it goes into all the particulars of the places from which they came, and the places to which they went, and to which they took their cargoes; 18 of the whole number had slaves on board, 11 having shipped their slaves in parts to the eastward of Cape Palmas, and seven to the westward of the same point, and the river where they shipped them is mentioned.

5142. Mr. _Forster_.] Supposing that the time should arrive when the greatest number of prize vessels should be brought from the southward, would you in that case consider Sierra Leone to be the place best adapted for the mixed commission?--If that arose from the slave trade being permanently at an end in the north, I should say, that the commission should certainly follow the course of the slave trade.

5143. Mr. _W. Patten_.] From the position you held, had you any information, officially or otherwise, of knowing the state of the slave trade to the south of the Line?--No, except what I got from papers found on board detained vessels, and from conversation with naval officers.

5144. From information so obtained, were you led to believe that the slave trade on the coast of Africa, taking both the east and west coast, had increased or decreased during the period you were there?--It had decreased in the bights, so as to be almost entirely destroyed at one time.

5145. The question refers to the coast on the south of the Line?--When it was suppressed to a great extent in the bights, it was driven both north and south of the bights; the old slave trade rivers in the bights were the principal places frequented by slave vessels, but the whole efforts of the cruizers were directed to that point, and the trade was almost entirely suppressed in those rivers, the Bonny and many others.

5146. You had no information which could enable you to judge whether the slave trade on the whole had increased or decreased during your residence at Sierra Leone?--I should say, that it decreased during the last two years I was there, from the immense number of captures that were made.

5147. It has been stated by a witness on the Committee, Captain Bosanquet, that in his belief, the slave trade south of the line, has increased materially during the last 10 years?--I think Captain Bosanquet refers to the eastern coast.

5148. Captain Bosanquet stated that he was, at two periods, on the coast, and that at the last period he found the slave trade going on with much more violence than at the first?--The effect of the suppression of the slave trade in the bights was to drive the slave trade both north and south, and it increased in the north and south, but I should say that the whole extent of the slave trade had decidedly decreased during the last two years.

5149. Do you think that it is a very material decrease?--I do.

5150. Do you know any particular places on the coast to which slavers have resorted, more especially since it has been so much checked on the west coast north of the Line?--It increased to the south; there have been many more Brazilian captures made in the rivers immediately south of the Line, of late years, than there were before; but the great diminution in the bights has not been made up by the increased slave trade either north or south.

5151. Mr. _Stuart Wortley_.] Will you explain what period you refer to when you use the expression, “of late years”?--In the years 1835 and 1836, it began to diminish, and in 1837 there was hardly any slave trade at all in the bights.

5152. Then, I understand you to say that there has been an increase of captures south of the Line since the years 1835 and 1836?--Yes, there has been.

5153. Could the capture of vessels under Portuguese colours have taken place till 1836?--It could have taken place if the same rule had been applied then as was applied in 1838.

5154. But in fact were there any captures made?--No, the rule was not applied till 1838.

5155. Then when you speak of the increase of captures since 1835, you mean that the practice of making captures south of the Line has been introduced since that period?--Yes; and I would observe with respect to that, that the Act of Parliament for the suppression of the Portuguese slave trade really did very little good. I am alluding to the Act which was passed in order to catch vessels south of the Line, because we already dealt with them in the way I have mentioned, and the only trade the Act could possibly affect, was the trade carried on between the Portuguese islands off the coast and the main-land.

5156. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you mean Prince’s Island?--Prince’s Island and St. Thomas.

5157. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Seeing that the sale of those goods at auctions conduces in some degree to the continuance of the slave trade on that coast, can you point out any other means by which those goods can be disposed of without contributing to the encouragement of that trade?--I do not see how it is possible to form regulations which shall follow the goods through all the hands into which they pass.

5158. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Could they be sold elsewhere?--Yes, there is trade on the coast; but I think it would be very injurious to interfere with trade.

5159. Mr. _Patten_.] Do you think that if the captors of the slave vessel were allowed to take the vessels and cargoes, they having been condemned, and sell them in any other country, they might not make greater gains than they do by selling them on the spot?--It is possible that they might make greater gains, but it would be impossible for the court to allow goods that have been once submitted to their jurisdiction regularly to pass into other hands for disposal. When the goods are condemned, they are placed under the authority of the marshal, to be dealt with according to the decision of the court; it cannot allow that decree to be carried into effect by any other than its own officers.

5160. According to the present law, it cannot; but do not you think that arrangements might be made by which the parties making the capture might derive greater benefit from the capture, by being enabled after the condemnation to dispose of the goods in another country?--I think the captors would not benefit by such a regulation; it would take them away from their cruizing stations, where they have an opportunity of making other captures.

5161. Have you not heard complaints made by the captors of the very little benefit they obtain from it?--Yes; but I think without good grounds.