Chapter XXVI: Book 1: , Page 7 (15)

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Then with the permission of the Tribunal I would like to call Captain Hessler as my next witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

[_The witness Hessler took the stand._]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?

GÜNTHER HESSLER (Witness): Günther Hessler.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and will add nothing.

[_The witness repeated the oath._]

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Captain Hessler, when did you enter the Navy?

HESSLER: In April 1927.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What was your last grade?

HESSLER: Fregattenkapitän.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You are related to Admiral Dönitz. Is that correct?

HESSLER: Yes. I married his only daughter in November 1937.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: When did you enter the U-boat service?

HESSLER: I started my U-boat training in April 1940.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were you given any information during your period of training on economic warfare according to the Prize Ordinance?

HESSLER: Yes. I was informed of it.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was the so-called “prize disc” used which has just been submitted to you?

HESSLER: Yes, I was instructed about it.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you tell the Tribunal briefly just what the purpose of this “prize disc” is?

HESSLER: It was a system of discs by means of which, through a simple mechanical process in a very short time one could ascertain how to deal with neutral and enemy merchant ships—whether, for instance, a neutral vessel carrying contraband could be sunk or captured, or whether it must be allowed to pass.

This disc has another great advantage in that it indicates at the same time the particular paragraph of the Prize Ordinance in which the case in question may be found. This made it possible to cut down the time required for the investigation of a merchant ship to a minimum.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: That means that the disc was in the nature of a legal adviser to the commander?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I now submit this disc to the Tribunal as Exhibit Dönitz-95.

In your training were you told what attitude you were required to adopt toward shipwrecked survivors? If so, what was it?

HESSLER: Yes. The rescuing of survivors is a matter of course in naval warfare and must be carried out as far as military measures permit. In U-boat warfare it is utterly impossible to rescue survivors, that is, to take the entire crew on board, for space conditions in the U-boat do not permit of any such action. The carrying out of other measures, such as, approaching the lifeboats, picking up swimmers and transferring them to the lifeboats, handing over provisions and water, is, as a rule, impossible, for the danger incurred by the U-boat is so great throughout the operational zone that none of these measures can be carried out without endangering the boat too much.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You yourself went out on cruises as commander soon after receiving these instructions?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: From when to when?

HESSLER: From October 1940 till November 1941.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: In what areas did you operate?

HESSLER: South of Iceland, west of the North Channel, in the waters between Cape Verde and the Azores, and in the area west of Freetown.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What success did you have against merchant shipping?

HESSLER: I sank 21 ships, totaling more than 130,000 tons.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You received the Knight’s Cross?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How did you act toward the survivors of the crews of the ships you sank?

HESSLER: In most cases the situation was such that I was compelled to leave the scene of the wreck without delay on account of danger from enemy naval or air forces. In two cases the danger was not quite so great. I was able to approach the lifeboats and help them.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What were the ships concerned?

HESSLER: Two Greek ships: the _Papalemos_ and _Pandias_.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How did you help the lifeboats?

HESSLER: First of all I gave the survivors their exact position and told them what course to set in order to reach land in their lifeboats. In the second place, I gave them water, which is of vital importance for survivors in tropical regions. In one case I also furnished medical aid for several wounded men.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did your personal experience with torpedoed ships dispose you to caution with regard to rescue measures?

HESSLER: Yes. The experienced U-boat commander was justifiably suspicious of every merchantman and its crew, no matter how innocent they might appear. In two cases this attitude of suspicion saved me from destruction.

This happened in the case of the steamer _Kalchas_, a British 10,000 ton ship which I torpedoed north of Cape Verde. The ship had stopped after being hit by the torpedo. The crew had left the ship and were in the lifeboats, and the vessel seemed to be sinking. I was wondering whether to surface in order at least to give the crew their position and ask if they needed water. A feeling which I could not explain kept me from doing so. I raised my periscope to the fullest extent and just as the periscope rose almost entirely out of the water, sailors who had been hiding under the guns and behind the bulwark, jumped up, manned the guns of the vessel—which so far had appeared to be entirely abandoned—and opened fire on my periscope at very close range, compelling me to submerge at full speed. The shells fell close to the periscope but were not dangerous to me.

In the second case, the steamer _Alfred Jones_, which I torpedoed off Freetown, also seemed to be sinking. I wondered whether to surface, when I saw in one of the lifeboats two sailors of the British Navy in full uniform. That aroused my suspicions. I inspected the ship at close range—I would say from a distance of 50 to 100 meters—and established the fact that it had not been abandoned, but that soldiers were still concealed aboard her in every possible hiding-place and behind boarding. When I torpedoed the ship this boarding was smashed. I saw that the ship had at least four to six guns of 10 and 15 centimeter caliber and a large number of depth charge chutes and antiaircraft guns behind the bulwarks. Only a pure accident, the fact that the depth charges had not been timed, saved me from destruction.

It was clear to me, naturally, after such an experience, that I could no longer concern myself with crews or survivors without endangering my own ship.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: When did you enter the staff of the Commander, U-boats.

HESSLER: In November 1941.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You were First Naval Staff Officer?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was it your task to instruct the commanders on orders issued before they left port?

HESSLER: Yes, I did that.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And what was the connection between the instructions given by you and those to be given by the flotilla chiefs—Korvettenkapitän Möhle, for instance?

HESSLER: The commanders whom I had to instruct received a complete summary of all questions concerning procedure at sea. The flotilla chiefs were charged with ascertaining that all commanders should receive a copy of the most recent orders issued by Commander, U-boats. I might say that these were limited instructions, compared with the full instructions they received from me.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did these full instructions include the instructions to the commanders regarding the treatment of survivors?

HESSLER: Yes, in much the same style as the instructions I received during my training in the U-boat school.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was any change made in the manner of instruction after the _Laconia_ order of September 1942?

HESSLER: Yes. I related the incident briefly to the commanders and told them:

“Now the decision as to whether the situation at sea permits of
rescue attempts no longer rests with you. Rescue measures are
prohibited from now on.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Do you mean to say that during the whole of the rest of the war—that is, for 2½ years—the commanders continued to be told about the _Laconia_ incident, or was that only done immediately after this incident in the autumn of 1942?

HESSLER: I would say up to January 1943 at the latest. After that, no further mention was made of it.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You mean, no further mention of the incident?

HESSLER: No further mention of the _Laconia_ incident.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: But the orders issued as a result of it were mentioned?

HESSLER: Yes, that a specific order not to take any more rescue measures had been issued.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did the commanders at any time receive orders or suggestions from you or from one of your staff to shoot at survivors?

HESSLER: Never.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were the commanders told by you about the order to take captains and chief engineers on board, if possible?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was it emphasized in those instructions that this was only to take place when it could be done without endangering the U-boat?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Do you know of the incident of U-boat _U-386_ which passed some airmen shot down in the Bay of Biscay?

HESSLER: I remember this incident very distinctly.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Then you also remember that this incident took place in the autumn of 1943?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did Commander, U-boats, think, with regard to this incident, that the U-boat commander should have shot at the airmen in the rubber dinghy?

HESSLER: No, on the contrary, he was annoyed because the crew of the aircraft had not been brought along by the U-boat.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did any other person or persons on the staff put forward the view I have just expressed?

HESSLER: No, we knew every one on the staff, and it is out of the question that any member of the staff held a different opinion.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Korvettenkapitän Möhle testified that he asked Korvettenkapitän Kuppisch, who was a member of your staff, for an explanation of the _Laconia_ order and that Kuppisch told him about the incident of the _U-386_; and told it in such a way as to make it appear that Commander, U-boats, ordered the shooting of survivors.

HESSLER: That is impossible.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Why?

HESSLER: Because Kuppisch took his U-boat out to sea in July 1943 and never returned from that cruise. The incident of _U-386_ happened in the autumn of 1943, which was later.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Korvettenkapitän Möhle in his first statement left the possibility open that this story about _U-386_ might have come from you. Did you discuss this matter with him?

HESSLER: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Are you certain of that?

HESSLER: Absolutely certain.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did you hear of the interpretation given by Korvettenkapitän Möhle to this _Laconia_ order?

HESSLER: After the capitulation—that is, after the end of the war and then through a British officer.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How do you explain the fact that of the very few officers who received these instructions from Möhle, none raised the question of the interpretation of this order with Commander, U-boats?

HESSLER: I have only one explanation of this; and that is that these officers thought Korvettenkapitän Möhle’s interpretation completely impossible, and not in agreement with the interpretation of Commander, U-boats.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Therefore, they did not think that clarification was necessary?

HESSLER: They did not think that clarification was necessary.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The Prosecution’s charges against Admiral Dönitz are based to a great extent on extracts from the War Diary of the SKL and Commander, U-boats, documents which are in the possession of the British Admiralty. How is it possible that all these data fell into the hands of the British Admiralty—and _in toto_?

HESSLER: It was the Admiral’s desire that the war diaries of the U-boats and of Commander, U-boats, which formed part of the Navy archives, should be preserved and not be destroyed.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did he say anything to you about this?

HESSLER: Yes, in that form, when I told him that our own staff data had been completely destroyed.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did he give any reason as to why he did not want the Navy archives destroyed?

HESSLER: He wanted to keep these data until after the war, and the Naval Operations Staff had nothing to conceal.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Is that your opinion or is that the opinion which Admiral Dönitz expressed to you?

HESSLER: He told me, “We have a clear conscience.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Immediately after the capitulation you were repeatedly interrogated on questions of U-boat warfare and you asked the senior officer present whether the German U-boat command would be accused by the British Navy of criminal acts. Is that right?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And what answer did you receive?

HESSLER: An unhesitating “No.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Does any defendant’s counsel wish to ask any questions?

[_There was no response._]

The Prosecution?

COL. PHILLIMORE: With the Tribunal’s permission I would not propose to cross-examine and ask leave to adapt my cross-examination of the last witness because it is the same ground substantially.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

Does any other Prosecutor wish to cross-examine?

Yes, Dr. Kranzbühler?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I have no further questions to ask the witness, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: In the interrogation of the Defendant Dönitz he said that Godt and Hessler—that is you, is it not...?

HESSLER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: ...told him, “Don’t send that signal. You see, one day it might appear in the wrong; it might be misinterpreted.” Did you say that?

HESSLER: I do not remember. As consulting officers, we often had to oppose orders which were being drafted, and we were entitled to do so; but I do not remember whether Admiral Godt and I did so in this case.

THE PRESIDENT: Then later in this interrogation the Defendant Dönitz said:

“I am completely and personally responsible for it”—that is
that order—“because Captains Godt and Hessler both expressly
stated that they considered the telegram as ambiguous or liable
to be misinterpreted.”

Did you say that this telegram was ambiguous or liable to be misinterpreted?

HESSLER: I do not remember that point. I do not think I thought the telegram was ambiguous.

THE PRESIDENT: And lastly the Defendant Dönitz said this:

“I would like to emphasize once more that both Captain Godt and
Captain Hessler were violently opposed to the sending of the
telegram.”

Do you say that you were not violently opposed to the sending of the telegram?

HESSLER: It is possible that we opposed the dispatch of the telegram because we did not consider it necessary to refer to the matter again.

THE PRESIDENT: Did you say anything to the Defendant Dönitz about this telegram at all?

HESSLER: At the drafting of the telegram we talked it over, just as we discussed every wireless message drafted by us. As time went on, we drafted many hundreds of wireless messages so that it is impossible to remember just what was said in each case.

THE PRESIDENT: You began your answer to that question: “At the drafting of this telegram...”

Do you remember what happened at the drafting of this telegram?

HESSLER: I can remember only that in the course of the so-called _Laconia_ incident a great many wireless messages were sent and received; that many wireless messages were drafted; and that, in addition, U-boat operations were going on in the Atlantic, so that I cannot recall details of what happened when the message was drafted.

THE PRESIDENT: You said now that it was possible that you and Admiral Godt were opposed to the sending of this telegram. Is that your answer?

HESSLER: It is possible, but I cannot say.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Dr. Kranzbühler, the witness can retire.

[_The witness left the stand._]

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Mr. President, this morning I had already advised the Prosecution that I shall not call the fourth witness scheduled—that is Admiral Eckardt. Therefore, my examination of witnesses has been concluded.

THE PRESIDENT: And that concludes your case for the present?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: That concludes my case, but with the permission of the Tribunal I would like to clarify one more question which deals with documents.

The Tribunal has refused all documents which refer to contraband, control ports, and the “Navicert” system. These questions are of some importance if I am to give a correct exposition later on.

May I interpret the Tribunal’s decision as saying that these documents are not to be used now as evidence but that I may have permission to use them later on in my legal exposition?

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kranzbühler, the Tribunal thinks that is a question which may be reserved until the time comes for you to make your speech.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Thank you, Mr. President. Then I have concluded my case.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.

[_The Tribunal adjourned until 15 May 1946 at 1000 hours._]

ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTIETH DAY
Wednesday, 15 May 1946

_Morning Session_

[_The witness Emil Puhl took the stand._]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?

EMIL PUHL (Witness): Emil Johann Rudolf Puhl.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.

[_The witness repeated the oath._]

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

DR. SAUTER: Witness Puhl, you were formerly Vice President of the Reichsbank?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: If I am correctly informed, you were a member of the Directorate of the Reichsbank already at the time of Dr. Schacht?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: When Dr. Schacht left, you were one of the few gentlemen who remained in the Reichsbank?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: You were then named by Hitler, on the suggestion of the Defendant Funk, to be Managing Vice President of the Reichsbank?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: When was that?

PUHL: During the year 1939.

DR. SAUTER: During the year 1939. You have said that you were Managing Vice President, and I presume this was due to the fact that banking was not the special field of the Defendant Funk while you were a banking expert, and that Funk in addition had charge of the Reich Ministry of Economics. Is that correct?

PUHL: Yes, but there was another reason, namely, the division of authority between official business on one side, and the handling of personnel on the other.

DR. SAUTER: The actual conduct of business was apparently your responsibility?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Hence, the title Managing Vice President?

PUHL: Yes. May I make a few comments on this?

DR. SAUTER: Only if it is necessary in the interests of the case.

PUHL: Yes. The business of the Directorate of the Reichsbank was divided among a number of members of the Directorate. Every member had full responsibility for his own sphere. The Vice President was the _primus inter pares_, his main task was to act as chairman at meetings to represent the President in the outside world and to deal with problems of general economic and banking policy.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Defendant Funk referred to you as a witness as early as December. You know that, don’t you? And accordingly, you were interrogated at the camp where you are now accommodated, I believe in Baden-Baden...

PUHL: Near Baden-Baden.

DR. SAUTER: ...interrogated on 1 May?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Two days later you were again interrogated?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: On 3 May?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Do you know why the matters on which you were questioned on 3 May were not dealt with during the interrogation on 1 May?

PUHL: I have before me the affidavit dated 3 May.

DR. SAUTER: 3 May. That deals with these business affairs with the SS.

PUHL: Yes. But I was questioned on this subject already on 1 May, only very briefly, and on 3 May there was a second interrogation for the purpose of discussing it in more detail.

DR. SAUTER: Did you not mention these business affairs of the Reichsbank with the SS during your interrogation on 1 May?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Did you mention them?

PUHL: A short statement was made.

DR. SAUTER: During the interrogation of 1 May?

PUHL: Yes. At any rate, the statement on 3 May made during the interrogation was only a more detailed record of what had already been briefly discussed before.

DR. SAUTER: I have the record of your interrogation on 1 May before me; I read through it again today. But as far as I can see, it contains no mention at all of business affairs with the SS. You must be speaking now of another interrogation?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I think perhaps I can be helpful in this apparent confusion. The interrogatory which was authorized by the Tribunal was taken on 1 May, but on that same day, and independent of these interrogatories, a member of our staff also interviewed this witness. But it was a separate interview. It wasn’t related to the interrogatory, and I think that is the source of the confusion.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. SAUTER: Were you interrogated twice about these transactions with the SS?

PUHL: Yes, twice during the days around 1 May; that is correct.

DR. SAUTER: Do you still remember the affidavit which you signed on 3 May?

PUHL: On 3 May, yes.

DR. SAUTER: It is the affidavit which deals with these transactions with the SS. Are your statements in this affidavit correct?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, have you been interrogated on these matters again since that time, since 3 May?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: When?

PUHL: Here in Nuremberg.

DR. SAUTER: When were you interrogated?

PUHL: During the last few days.

DR. SAUTER: I see. Today is Wednesday, when was it?

PUHL: Friday, Monday, Tuesday.

DR. SAUTER: Yesterday?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: On this matter?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Was a film also shown to you here?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Once or twice?

PUHL: Once.

DR. SAUTER: Had you seen this film before?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Did you recognize clearly what was presented in the film?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: I ask because, as you know, the film runs very quickly and is very short; the Prosecution showed it twice in the courtroom so that one might follow it fairly well. Did one showing suffice to make clear to you what the film contained?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Then will you tell me what you saw in it, only what you saw in the film, or what you think you saw.

PUHL: Yes. The film was taken in front of the safes of our bank at Frankfurt-on-Main, the usual safes with glass doors, behind which one could see the locked cases and containers, which had apparently been deposited there. It was the usual picture presented by such strong rooms. In front of these safes were several containers which had been opened so that their contents could be seen—coins, jewelry, pearls, bank notes, clocks.

DR. SAUTER: What sort of clocks?

PUHL: Large alarm clocks.

DR. SAUTER: Nothing else? Didn’t you see anything else in the film?

PUHL: Apart from these objects?

DR. SAUTER: Apart from these, shall we say, valuables, didn’t you see anything else that is alleged to have been kept there?

PUHL: No, no.

DR. SAUTER: Only these valuables? Please go on.

PUHL: I noticed that among these valuables there were coins, apparently silver coins, and also bank notes, obviously American bank notes.

DR. SAUTER: Correct.

PUHL: It was astonishing that these things were given to us for safekeeping, because if they had come to the knowledge of our officials, then no doubt...

DR. SAUTER: Speak slowly, please.

PUHL: ...no doubt the bank notes would have been immediately turned over to the foreign exchange department, since, as is known, a general order existed for the turning in of foreign bank notes which particularly were much in demand.

Something similar applies to the coins. These, too, ought to have been transferred to the treasury in accordance with the regulations and routine of business, that is to say, they should have been purchased for the accounts of the Reich.

DR. SAUTER: That is what you noticed in the film?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: And nothing else?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, valuable articles entrusted to the Reichsbank for safekeeping were supposed to have been kept in the Reichsbank in that way. Now I have been asking myself whether your Reichsbank really stored the valuables entrusted to it in the manner apparent from the film and I therefore want to ask this question of you: Do you as Managing Vice President of the Reichsbank know how valuables which were handed over for safekeeping in the strong-rooms were kept, for instance, in Berlin or in Frankfurt, where this film was taken?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Please tell the Court.

PUHL: The outer appearance of the safe installations in Berlin was somewhat similar to that in Frankfurt, and probably similar to any other large bank. These things were known to us as “closed deposits,” a banking term, and were kept, as the name indicates, in closed containers. Space for these was provided by us and paid for by the depositors, according to the size in each case.

DR. SAUTER: Were these things kept—for instance, in Berlin or in Frankfurt—exactly as shown in the film?

PUHL: Well, I had the impression that the things of which we are now talking had been put there expressly for the purpose of taking the film.

DR. SAUTER: For the film. Do you recollect seeing a sack, which I think was shown in the film, with the label “Reichsbank Frankfurt?”

PUHL: Yes, I saw a sack labeled “Reichsbank”; I cannot say whether “Reichsbank Frankfurt.”

DR. SAUTER: As far as I know, it had “Reichsbank Frankfurt” on it. For that reason we assumed that the film was taken at Frankfurt, and the Prosecution confirmed that.

MR. DODD: I don’t like to interrupt but I think we should be careful about this statement. There have been two mistakes of some slight importance already. We didn’t show the film twice before this Tribunal and that bag doesn’t bear the legend “Frankfurt.” It simply says “Reichsbank.” And it was the Schacht film that was shown twice here, because it moved rather quickly.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, will you continue with your reply to the question. I can put it in this way: Did the Reichsbank keep gold articles and the like in such sacks?

PUHL: If I understand you correctly, you are asking this: When valuables were deposited with us, were they deposited in open sacks? Is that correct?

DR. SAUTER: I do not know what procedure you had.

PUHL: We at any rate had closed deposits, as the name implies. Of course, it may be a sack which is closed; that is quite possible.

DR. SAUTER: So far as I saw in banks at Munich, the things which were deposited there in increased measure during the war were without exception deposited in closed boxes or cases and the like, so that generally the bank did not know at all what was contained in the cases or boxes. Did you in the Reichsbank follow a different procedure?

PUHL: No, it was exactly the same. And the noticeable thing about this sack, as has been said, is the label “Reichsbank.” Obviously it is a sack belonging to us and not to any private person.

DR. SAUTER: Then you too, if I may repeat this to avoid any doubt, you too kept in a closed container the valuables, which had been deposited as “closed deposits.”

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Or they went to the strongboxes?

PUHL: The word “deposits” might be misleading. The closed containers went to the strong-room. The strong-room consisted of strongboxes where these cases or containers were deposited. Quite independent of that arrangement, we had the “open deposits.” Open deposits are those which by initial agreement are administered openly. The strong-rooms for these were located in quite a different part of the building from the so-called main strong-room.

DR. SAUTER: But presumably, we are not concerned here with these open deposits?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Now, Witness, I come to the deposits of the SS. These deposits were not in Frankfurt but presumably in Berlin in the central bank.

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Now, will you give details about the discussions which the Defendant Funk had with you regarding the SS deposits. And may I ask you to consider your replies and search your memory very carefully before answering my questions. Naturally I shall allow you time.

First of all, what did you and the Defendant Funk discuss when you talked about these deposits of the SS for the first time?

PUHL: I refer here to my affidavit of 3 May. I had a very simple talk with Herr Funk. It turned on the request of the SS to make use of our bank installations by depositing valuables for which, it was said, there was not sufficient protection in the cellars of the SS building. Perhaps, for the sake of completeness, I may add that “SS,” in this connection, always means the Economic Department of the SS.

DR. SAUTER: What did the Defendant Funk speak of at the time? Did he specify exactly what should be accepted for safekeeping?

PUHL: He mentioned valuables which the SS had brought from the Eastern Territories, which were then in their cellars and which, above all, they requested us to keep in safety.

DR. SAUTER: But did the Defendant Funk tell you in detail what these valuables were?

PUHL: No, not in detail, but he said that in general they were gold, foreign currency, silver, and jewelry.

DR. SAUTER: Gold, foreign currency, silver, jewelry...

PUHL: To which I may add that gold and foreign currency had of course to be surrendered to the Reichsbank at any rate.

DR. SAUTER: Gold, foreign currency, silver and jewelry?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: And that was supposed to have been confiscated in the Eastern Territories?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Did the Defendant Funk tell you at the time why these confiscations had been made, or who had been affected by them?

PUHL: No, that was not stated; the talk, as I have said, was brief.

DR. SAUTER: And what was your reply?

PUHL: I said that this sort of business with the SS would at least be inconvenient for us, and I voiced objections to it. I may add that we, as the Reichsbank, were always very cautious in these matters, for example, when valuables were offered us by foreign exchange control offices, customs offices, and the like.

DR. SAUTER: What was the actual reason for your objections in the case of the SS?

PUHL: Because one could not know what inconvenient consequences a business connection of this sort might produce.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, that answer does not satisfy me. Did you or the Defendant Funk not wish to have anything to do with the SS at all, or was there some other reason for your objections?

PUHL: The first part of your question I answer with “no.” There was no objection on principle, nor could there be; for, after all, every German organization or institution had the legal right to enjoy the services of the Reichsbank.

The circumstances arising out of these confiscations were uncomfortable, like the confiscations of the foreign exchange control offices, _et cetera_, which I mentioned, because one never knew what difficulties might result.

DR. SAUTER: So that, if I understand you well—please correct me if I interpret it wrongly—you voiced objections because these business affairs were somewhat uncomfortable for the Reichsbank, they fell outside the normal scope of business, and were as little welcome to you as, for instance, deposits of the customs authorities or the foreign exchange control offices, and so forth? Only for this reason?

PUHL: Yes. But I have to add something; we were asked whether we would assist the SS in handling these deposits. It was immediately clear, of course, and also expressly stated, that these deposits included foreign currency, and also securities and all sorts of gold coins, _et cetera_, and that the SS people did not quite know how to deal with these things.

DR. SAUTER: Did these things arrive subsequently?

PUHL: Yes. But something else happened before that. After this conversation the head of the Economic Department of the SS, whose name was Pohl, Obergruppenführer Pohl, contacted me. I asked him to come to my office, and there he repeated, what I already knew, namely that he would welcome it if we would take over these valuables as soon as possible.

DR. SAUTER: What was your answer?

PUHL: I confirmed what we had arranged and said, “If you will designate officials from your department, I shall inform our department, and together they can discuss the technical details.”

DR. SAUTER: To revert to an earlier stage: What did the Defendant Funk say when you explained during your first conversation with him that you would not willingly take over those things because one often had a lot of trouble with such matters?

PUHL: My objections were subordinated to the broader consideration of assisting the SS, all the more—and this must be emphasized—because these things were for the account of the Reich.

DR. SAUTER: Did you discuss whether these things, particularly gold, should be converted by the Reichsbank or melted down?

PUHL: No, not in detail; it was merely said that the officials of the Reichsbank should offer their good services to the SS.

DR. SAUTER: I do not quite understand. The good services of the Reichsbank officials consist in receiving these valuables into safekeeping and locking them up?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Were the services of your officials to go beyond that?

PUHL: Yes, inasmuch as the SS people were to come and remove from the containers whatever had to be surrendered.

DR. SAUTER: For instance, gold coins, foreign currency, _et cetera_?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Then did you see—to come back to the question already put—did you see what arrived, what the SS delivered?

PUHL: No, not personally. This happened far away from my office, in quite a different building, downstairs in the strong-rooms which I, as Vice President of the Reichsbank, would not normally enter without a special reason.

DR. SAUTER: Did you, as Vice President, visit these strong-rooms frequently?

PUHL: It was a habit of mine, sometimes at an interval of three months or longer, to go through the strong-rooms; if there was some occasion for it, for instance, when there was a visitor to be conducted or some new installation to be discussed, or when there was something of importance beyond mere attendance on the safes and the clients.

DR. SAUTER: But, of course, as Vice President, you had nothing to do with attending to customers?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: And I should like to put the same question to you with regard to the Defendant Funk. Did the Defendant Funk, who moreover belonged to the Reichsbank only in part, go to the strong-rooms often?

If so, how often and for what reason? And did he see what had been handed in by the SS?

PUHL: The answer is that Funk, too, went to the strong-rooms on special occasions, for example, when there were foreign visitors. Naturally, I would not know how often, nor whether he saw the SS deposits. That depends on whether the strong-room officials who were conducting him pointed them out to him.

DR. SAUTER: Did you, Witness, see the things which came from the SS—did you see them yourself?

PUHL: No, never.

DR. SAUTER: Never?

PUHL: Never.

DR. SAUTER: Do you think that the Defendant Funk saw them?

PUHL: I cannot tell that, of course; it depends on whether the strong-room officials pointed out specifically: “Here is the deposit of the SS.”

DR. SAUTER: Then I presume you cannot give us any information on how these things of the SS were actually kept or how they were packed?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Whether in boxes or...

PUHL: No, I do not know that.

DR. SAUTER: Did you talk again about this whole affair of the SS deposits with the Defendant Funk?

PUHL: Hardly at all, as far as I can remember. But I must certainly have talked to him a second time, after Herr Pohl had visited me, since it was, of course, my task and my duty to keep Funk informed of everything.

DR. SAUTER: Did the members of the Reichsbank Directorate, the board of directors, attach a special significance to this whole matter so that there might have been occasion to discuss it more frequently? Or was it regarded as just an unpleasant but unimportant sort of business?

PUHL: No. At the beginning there was probably a report on it to the meeting of the Directorate, but then it was not mentioned again.

DR. SAUTER: You cannot recollect having later again talked of the matter with Funk? But it is possible, if I understood you correctly, that after the settlement with SS Obergruppenführer Pohl, you may again have reported about it briefly? Did I understand you correctly?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Now, Witness, in your affidavit under Figure 5, you say that among the articles deposited by the SS were jewelry, watches, spectacle frames, gold fillings—apparently these dental fillings—and other articles in large quantities which the SS had taken away from Jews and concentration camp victims and other persons. How do you know that?

PUHL: I know that from my interrogations at Frankfurt.

DR. SAUTER: You were told about these things during your interrogations in Frankfurt after your arrest?

PUHL: And they were shown to me.

DR. SAUTER: You had no knowledge of them while you were free and administered the Reichsbank as Vice President?

PUHL: No, because, I repeat it again, we never discussed this in the Directorate, since it was of no basic significance for currency or banking policy or in any other respect.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, if at that time in 1942 you had known that these were articles which the SS had taken away from many concentration camp victims, would you have received them into safekeeping?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: What would you have done?

PUHL: Then we would have come to some decision on the attitude which the bank as a whole should adopt toward this problem.

DR. SAUTER: Who would have had the decisive word?

PUHL: The decision would have been made by the Directorate of the Reichsbank as an executive group, as a corporate body, and then it would have been submitted to the President for countersignature.

DR. SAUTER: Earlier—I must fill in this gap in connection with your affidavit—you expressed yourself in a rather misleading way. You stated earlier: “This was brought to our knowledge, because the SS personnel attempted to convert this material into gold, into cash.” And today you say that you heard of it only after your arrest. Apparently, if I understand you correctly, there must be...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, I do not understand why you say “earlier.” It is the sentence which followed the sentence which you put to him.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Why do you say “earlier” then? Why do you say “earlier”?

DR. SAUTER: In his affidavit—if the wording of the affidavit is correct and there is no misunderstanding—the witness said...

THE PRESIDENT: What I am pointing out to you is that the first sentence reads like this: “The material deposited by the SS included all these items taken from Jews, concentration camp victims, and other persons by the SS.” And it then goes on, “This was brought to our knowledge by the SS personnel who attempted to convert this material into cash.” What you are now putting to him is that that acceptance was put to him earlier. At least that is what I understood you to say.

DR. SAUTER: No; the witness said today that he was told only during his interrogations in Frankfurt-on-Main that these articles had been taken from concentration camp victims, _et cetera_. The affidavit, however, can and must be interpreted in my opinion as saying that he received this information, already before his arrest, through the SS personnel and that apparently is not true. For that reason I asked the witness whether this expression in the affidavit is not a misunderstanding.

Now, Witness, if I may repeat this: You first heard that these articles belonged to concentration camp victims at your interrogation?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: And when did you learn what was contained in this deposit; when did you know that, to pick out one example, gold teeth were contained in it?

PUHL: Not at all. No details of this transaction were submitted to the Directorate by the strong-room or safe officials.

DR. SAUTER: So of this, too, you heard only after your arrest?

PUHL: Of the details, yes.

DR. SAUTER: Good. Now, you speak of an agreement which, according to the statement of Funk, Himmler, the Reichsführer of the SS, is said to have made with the Reich Minister of Finance. What do you know about this agreement?

PUHL: That is the agreement I have already mentioned. It was clear from the beginning that the value of the things deposited with us was to be credited to the Ministry of Finance.

DR. SAUTER: Not to the SS?

PUHL: No, not to the SS.

DR. SAUTER: Why not? The SS were the depositors, were they not?

PUHL: Yes, but they maintained that their actions were carried out in the name and on behalf of the Reich and its accounts.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, do you know whether these valuables, which in some way had been confiscated or stolen by the SS in the East, were placed as a matter of principle at the disposal of the Reich Ministry of Finance?

PUHL: I did not quite understand the question. Are you referring to these articles or to confiscated articles, valuables in general?

DR. SAUTER: To all valuables. I am speaking of gold, foreign currency, and so forth, all these valuables acquired by the SS in the East; were they all to be placed at the disposal of the Reich Ministry of Finance, and not of the Reichsbank?

PUHL: The equivalent value?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, the equivalent value.

PUHL: The equivalent value was credited to the Reich Ministry of Finance.

DR. SAUTER: In this connection, Witness, may I show you two accounts. I do not know whether you have seen them. They are two accounts of the chief cashier’s office of your bank.

PUHL: Yes, to us.

DR. SAUTER: I should like you, then, to look at them, and to tell me whether you have seen them before and what you know about them?

PUHL: I saw these two copies—photostat copies—during my interrogations.

DR. SAUTER: But not earlier?

PUHL: No, not earlier. And from these photostat copies it is clear—we have just discussed it—that the equivalent value was to be credited to the Reich Chief Cashier’s Office, as it says here; the Reich Chief Cashier’s Office was a part of the Ministry of Finance.

DR. SAUTER: So apparently it is connected with this agreement, of which you heard, that finally all these things belonged to the Reich Ministry of Finance, to the Reich.

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Now I have one more question on this subject. And I would like to know whether perhaps there is a misunderstanding in this case too. You say in the affidavit that Funk told you this matter should be kept absolutely secret; that is the wording. You did not mention this point at all today, although we have the affidavit in front of us. Will you say now whether this is true or whether it is a misunderstanding?

PUHL: That it should be kept secret? No.

DR. SAUTER: Yes.

PUHL: Of course, this matter was to be kept secret, but then everything that happens in a bank must be kept secret.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, this statement cannot, of course, satisfy us. Did you, during your interrogation of 3 May, say what is contained in this document, namely, that the matter was to be kept absolutely secret, or did you express yourself in different words?

PUHL: No, the wording of the affidavit is correct; the matter was to be kept absolutely secret.

DR. SAUTER: Why?

PUHL: Why? Because, plainly, such matters are usually kept secret and are not publicized; furthermore, these things came from the East. I repeat what I said before, that our attitude towards confiscated articles was always to avoid them.

DR. SAUTER: Did it strike you as unusual that the Defendant Funk spoke of keeping the matter secret?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Or did it not strike you as unusual?

PUHL: Not as unusual.

DR. SAUTER: Not as unusual?

PUHL: No. It was merely decided in the conversation that since we were not willing to accept the confiscated articles of the foreign exchange control offices and the customs offices, we should, naturally, insist on secrecy in accepting these articles.

DR. SAUTER: Yes. But from your account of the matter, it appears that, on one hand, you considered the business to be perfectly legal, and you yourself say that it was perfectly legal; on the other hand, secrecy was for you, as an old banking expert, a matter of course. Now the question arises, why then was the subject of keeping the matter secret discussed at all?

PUHL: Herr Funk himself had been asked to keep the matter as secret as possible, and he passed on that request.

DR. SAUTER: When did Funk tell you that he had been asked to keep it secret?

PUHL: I do not remember that.

DR. SAUTER: Did you not ask him why it should be kept secret, absolutely secret, as you say? I do not know whether you still maintain “absolutely secret”?

PUHL: Yes, a special duty of observing secrecy was to be imposed on the officials.

DR. SAUTER: Well, what did you, as Vice President, as Managing Vice President, say to that?

PUHL: I did not say anything because, if that had been agreed upon, then this wish would have to be complied with.

DR. SAUTER: But you do not know whether it had been agreed upon?

PUHL: Well, I assume that it was agreed upon.

DR. SAUTER: You consider it possible?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: And—to repeat this—you did not at all see the articles which arrived?

PUHL: No, not at all.

DR. SAUTER: And probably you do not know how many there were?

PUHL: No, I do not know that either; and, as I said before, I never saw an account; that was not in conformity with our procedure, as individual transactions were not submitted to the members of the Directorate.

DR. SAUTER: I ask because recently, when this case was discussed, it was asserted that whole truckloads of such articles, whole truckloads had arrived. You are already laughing and you will laugh more when I tell you that 47 truckloads of gold were said to have arrived at your bank; and you knew nothing about them?

PUHL: I have never heard of that.

DR. SAUTER: You heard nothing about that? Witness, we will leave this point and turn to the second point in your affidavit of May, with which we can deal very briefly.

I think you knew Herr Pohl, SS Obergruppenführer Pohl, of whom you spoke just now, already in 1942?

PUHL: Yes, but none the less this was the first occasion on which Pohl came to my office.

DR. SAUTER: This is no reproach, I just wanted to establish a fact. You knew him as a result of this first credit transaction which took place at an earlier time.

PUHL: Yes, that may be.

DR. SAUTER: The Defendant Funk says, you see, that as far as he can remember this credit matter—and he did not attach any special significance to it at the time—it was negotiated about 1940, some time before the other transaction. Can that be true? Approximately?

PUHL: I can neither deny nor confirm that; I no longer recall the date of the credit.

DR. SAUTER: Well, in your affidavit you state, with reference to this credit, that the Reichsbank had granted a credit of 10 or 12 millions to the SS, I believe to pay off a loan which the SS had taken up with another bank. And you say that this credit was used for financing production in factories directed by the SS, where workers from concentration camps were employed.

Witness, I am not primarily interested in this credit as such because it was, of course, part of your business as a bank; and the figure of, I think, 10 or 12 millions was also not unusual. But I am interested in how you knew that this money was to be used for SS factories in which workers from concentration camps were employed. How did you know that?

PUHL: The application for credit came from the Economic Department of the SS which I have mentioned before. This department was directing a number of factories in Germany, and needed money for that purpose. The Gold Discount Bank was prepared to give this credit, but only in the form of regular business credits. In other words, the debtor had to submit a balance sheet to us and at regular intervals had to report on his production, his general financial position, his plans for the immediate future, in short, all matters on which a debtor is bound to inform his creditor.

The board of directors of the Gold Discount Bank conducted these negotiations, in which the representatives of the Economic Department, who submitted the balance sheets, naturally discussed their production program, which was remarkable insofar as the wage figures affecting the balance were comparatively low. And so the natural question arose: Why is your wage account so low? The director of the Gold Discount Bank reported on this subject to the board meeting of the Gold Discount Bank.

DR. SAUTER: You always refer to the Gold Discount Bank. The Tribunal would be interested to know whether the Gold Discount Bank is identical with the Reichsbank, whether it was also under the jurisdiction of the Defendant Funk and your own, and what was its position?

PUHL: The Gold Discount Bank was an institute subsidiary to the Reichsbank; it was founded in the twenties for various purposes, not only for the promotion of exports, but also for the increase of production. The capital structure...

DR. SAUTER: No, we are not interested in that.

PUHL: Practically all the shares were in the hands of the Reichsbank. The Gold Discount Bank had a Board of Directors always headed by the President of the Reichsbank; it also had a deputy chairman who was the Second Vice President of the Reichsbank, and the Board of Directors itself included a number of members of the Directorate of the Reichsbank, and also the State Secretaries of the Ministry of Economics and of the Ministry of Finance.

THE PRESIDENT: It is not interesting to us to know who the exact directors of the Gold Discount Bank were.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, I wanted, in fact, to interrupt you earlier, and tell you that what you have just related is without significance for the Trial. To me and to the Tribunal it is only of interest to hear whether the Defendant Funk, as far as you definitely remember, had knowledge of these matters, of the purpose of this credit and whether he knew that in these factories people from the concentration camps were employed? Do you, or do you not know?

PUHL: I might assume that, but I cannot know it. At any rate, it was known that the credit was destined for these factories.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, I cannot be satisfied with that answer because the SS, as you have probably heard in the meantime, directed various undertakings in which no concentration camp inmates were employed. To my knowledge, for example, the porcelain factory at Allach did not apparently employ concentration camp inmates. Then for example, the entire personnel at the spas...

MR. DODD: I object to testimony by counsel. He is practically giving the answer to this witness before he asks the question.

DR. SAUTER: Do you know whether the SS had undertakings in which no concentration camp inmates were employed?

PUHL: I did not, of course, know every individual business run by the SS, nor could I know in each case whether prisoners were or were not employed.

DR. SAUTER: Was the Defendant Funk present at all during the meeting at which this credit was discussed?

PUHL: No, he was not present; the records of the proceedings were submitted; we always adopted that procedure.

DR. SAUTER: Then did the Defendant Funk talk at all with the people who had given information on the unusual figures of the wage account?

PUHL: No, that was done by the Board of Directors of the Gold Discount Bank.

DR. SAUTER: That was done by the board of the Gold Discount Bank, not by the Defendant Funk?

Then, Mr. President, I have no further questions for the witness.

MR. DODD: I have just a few questions to ask, Your Honor.

[_Turning to the witness._] Whom have you talked to besides representatives of the Prosecution since you have arrived here in Nuremberg? Did you look at any paper?

PUHL: I do not know all their names, I believe a Mr. Kempner, Mr. Margolis...