Chapter XVI: Book 1: , Page 7 (5)

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It was a military dictatorship in which the dictator saw those people he wanted at his military headquarters; that is right, is it not?

DÖNITZ: One cannot say “military dictatorship.” It was not a dictatorship at all. There was a military sector and a civilian sector, and both components were united in the hands of the Führer.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. I will take the last part of your answer, and we will not argue about the first.

Now, you saw him on 119 days in just over 2 years; do you agree to that?

DÖNITZ: Yes. But in that connection it must be stated that from 30 January 1943, when I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, until the end of January 1945—that is, approximately 2 years—the number was, I think, 57 times. The larger figure arises from the fact that in the last months of the war I took part in the noontime conferences on the situation which took place daily in the Voss Strasse in Berlin.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I want to ask you about certain of these. At a number of these meetings the Defendant Speer was present, was he not?

DÖNITZ: I cannot remember that he was present in person at the discussions of the military situation. Actually Minister Speer as a civilian had nothing to do with a discussion of the military situation. But it is possible that he was there on some occasions, for instance, when tank production and other matters were discussed which were directly connected with the Führer’s military considerations.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That was exactly what I was going to put to you, that the occasions when the Defendant Speer were present were when you were going into matters of supply; that is, supply for the various services, including supply for the Navy.

DÖNITZ: Supply questions of the Navy were never discussed at the large conferences on the military situation. I discussed these matters with the Führer alone, as I have already said, usually in the presence of Jodl and Keitel. I submitted these matters to the Führer after I had come to an understanding with Minister Speer, to whom I had delegated all matters of naval armament when I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. That, in general, was the situation.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But, like the head of every service, you would have had to learn about priorities and materials and labor. You would want to know how labor was going to be allocated during the next period, would you not?

DÖNITZ: I tried to bring it about that by a decision of the Führer Minister Speer would be given the order to build the largest possible number of new U-boats which I had to have at the time. But there were limitations as to the quantities to be allotted to each branch of the Armed Forces by Speer’s Ministry.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And, therefore, you would be very interested in discovering the figure of manpower for labor for naval supplies and for the other supplies, to see that you were getting your fair share, would you not?

DÖNITZ: I am very sorry, but I cannot give you an answer to that. I never knew, and I do not know today, how many workers Speer was using for the armament supply for the Navy. I do not even know whether Speer can give you the answer, because construction of submarines, for instance, was taking place all over the German Reich in many industrial plants. Parts were then assembled in the shipyards. Therefore I have no idea what the labor capacity allotted to the Navy was.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you remember describing Speer as the man who holds the production of Europe in his hand? That was on 17 December 1943. I shall put the document to you in a little time. But do you remember describing him as that?

DÖNITZ: Yes; I know that quite well.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And don’t you know quite well also that Speer was getting his labor from foreign labor brought into the Reich?

DÖNITZ: I knew, of course, that there were foreign workers in Germany. It is just as self-evident that as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy I was not concerned as to how these workers were recruited. That was none of my business.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did not Gauleiter Sauckel tell you on the occasion of this trip that he had got 5 million foreign workers into the Reich, of whom only 200,000 had come voluntarily?

DÖNITZ: I did not have a single conversation with Gauleiter Sauckel. I have never had a discussion with anyone about questions referring to workers.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, Defendant, you were head of a service department in the fifth and sixth years of the war. Wasn’t Germany, like every other country, searching around to scrape the bottom of the barrel for labor for all its requirements? Weren’t you in urgent need of labor, like every other country in the war?

DÖNITZ: I, too, think that we needed workers.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Are you telling the Tribunal that you did not know after these conferences with Hitler and with Speer that you were getting this labor by forcing foreign labor to come into the Reich and be used?

DÖNITZ: During my conferences with Hitler and Speer, the system of obtaining these workers was never mentioned at all. The methods did not interest me at all. During these conferences the labor question was not discussed at all. I was interested merely in how many submarines I received, that is, how large my allotment was in terms of ships built.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You tell the Tribunal you discussed that with Speer and he never told you where he was getting his labor? Is that your answer on this point?

DÖNITZ: Yes, that is my answer, and it is true.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you remember, just before we passed from the industrial side of it, that at certain meetings the representatives for coal and transport, and Gauleiter Kaufmann, the Reich Commissioner for Shipping, were present at meetings which you had with the Führer?

DÖNITZ: No.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You may take it from me that they are listed as being present at these meetings. Were you dealing with general problems of shipping and transport?

DÖNITZ: Never. As far as sea transport is concerned—that is true. I was thinking of things on land. I thought you meant on land. I have already stated that at the end of the war I was keenly interested in the tonnage of merchant vessels because this tonnage, which I needed in order to carry out military transports from Norway, from and to the East, and for refugee transports, was not under my jurisdiction but under that of Gauleiter Kaufmann, the Reich Commissioner for shipping. So at meetings and discussions which dealt with the sea transport situation I was, of course, present.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let us take another subject of these 119 days. On 39 of these days the Defendant Keitel was also present at the headquarters and at about the same number, the Defendant Jodl.

DÖNITZ: I am sorry; I did not understand the date.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I will put it again. At 39 of these meetings between January 1943 and April 1945 the Defendant Keitel was present and at about the same number, the Defendant Jodl. Now, is it right that you discussed or listened to the discussion, in their presence, of the general strategical position?

DÖNITZ: I might say that the word “meeting” does not quite describe the matter. It was rather, as I...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, you choose the word; you give us the word.

DÖNITZ: It was, as I described it, a large-scale discussion of the military situation; and at this discussion I heard also, of course, reports about the army situation. That I explained before.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I just want to get it quite clear that over these 2 years you had every opportunity of understanding and appreciating the military strategical position; that is so, isn’t it?

DÖNITZ: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, on 20 of these occasions the Defendant Göring was present. The Defendant Göring has put himself forward in two capacities; as Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe and as a politician. What was he doing on these 20 occasions?

DÖNITZ: Reich Marshal Göring was there as Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force when the military situation was discussed.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And so from the Defendant Göring you would have a full knowledge and appreciation of the air situation and the position of the Luftwaffe during this period?

DÖNITZ: Insofar as my occasional presence at these discussions, in which only segments were dealt with—an over-all picture was never given at such a discussion—insofar as I could form an opinion from these segments, which naturally was always fragmentary. That was the reason why I have never made statements about military matters outside the Navy.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let me ask you just one further question on this point. Following up what Dr. Laternser asked, on 29 June 1944, apart from Keitel and Jodl and Göring, these defendants, Marshal Von Rundstedt and Marshal Rommel were also present; and may I remind you that that was 3 weeks after the Allies had invaded in the West. You were being given the opportunity, were you not, of getting the appreciation of the strategical position after the Allied invasion of Normandy, isn’t that so?

DÖNITZ: Yes, from that I gained an impression of the situation in Normandy after the enemy had set foot there. I was in a position to report to the Führer which of my new small striking devices I could put to use in that sector.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, let us change to another aspect of the government in general.

On a number of occasions the Reichsführer-SS Himmler was present at these conferences—shall I call them—isn’t that so?

DÖNITZ: Yes. If the Reichsführer-SS Himmler was there, and as far as I remember that happened once or twice, it was because of his Waffen-SS.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You may take it from me that he is shown as being there on at least seven occasions, and that Fegelein, who was his representative at the Führer’s headquarters, is shown as being present on five occasions. What did Himmler discuss about the Waffen-SS—the doings of the Totenkopf division?

DÖNITZ: That cannot be right. Fegelein was always present during the discussions of the military situation; he never missed, because he was a permanent representative. If the Reichsführer was present during these discussions, he reported only on the Waffen-SS, those divisions of the Waffen-SS which were being used somewhere under the Army. I do not know the name of these individual divisions. I do not think they included the Totenkopf; I never heard they did; there was a Viking or...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That was because they were being largely occupied in concentration camps, and you say that Himmler never mentioned that?

DÖNITZ: That Totenkopf divisions were used in concentration camps I learned here in Nuremberg. It wasn’t mentioned there. I have already said that during the military discussions only military matters were discussed.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, the Defendant Kaltenbrunner is only reported as being present once, on 26 February 1945, when there was quite a considerable gathering of SS notabilities. What were you discussing with him then?

DÖNITZ: It is not correct that Kaltenbrunner was there only once. As far as I remember, he was there two, three, or four times; at any rate, during the last months of the war I saw him two, three, or four times. Kaltenbrunner never said a word there; as far as I remember, he just listened and stood about.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What I want you to tell the Tribunal is: What was the subject of conversation when you had, not only the Defendant Kaltenbrunner there, but you had SS Obergruppenführer Steiner, your own captain in attendance, and Lieutenant General Winter? What were these gentlemen there for, and what were you hearing from them?

DÖNITZ: Who is the captain and who is Lieutenant General Günther?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Captain Von Assmann; I took it he was the captain in attendance on you, though I may have been wrong—Kapitän zur See Von Assmann. Then there was Lieutenant General Winter, SS Obergruppenführer Steiner, and SS Obergruppenführer Kaltenbrunner. What were you discussing on the 26th of February 1945?

DÖNITZ: I must mention one fact in this connection: Captain Von Assmann was present at every discussion of the general situation.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just a moment. You can tell us something afterwards, but first of all listen to my question. What were you discussing with these people from the SS on 26 February 1945?

DÖNITZ: I cannot remember that now. I do remember, however, that Steiner received an order in regard to the army groups in Pomerania which were to make the push from the north to the south in order to relieve Berlin. I think that when Steiner was present perhaps this question, which did not concern me, was discussed.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now I just want you to think, before I leave this point. You have agreed with me that at a number of meetings, a large number, there were present Keitel and Jodl, at not quite so many Göring, who would give you the army and air situation in Germany; there was present the Defendant Speer, who would give you the production position; there was present Himmler, or his representative Fegelein, who would give you the security position; and you yourself were present, who would give the naval position. At all meetings there was present the Führer who would make the decisions.

I put to you, Defendant, that you were taking as full a part in the government of Germany during these years as anyone, apart from Adolf Hitler himself.

DÖNITZ: In my opinion that description is not correct. At these discussions of the general situation neither Speer nor anybody else supplied a complete survey of the work being done. On the contrary, only acute questions of the day were discussed. As I have said, the happenings of the last 24 hours were discussed, and what should be done. That there was a staff there which in its reports gave an over-all picture—that was quite out of the question; it was not at all like that. The only one who had a complete picture of the situation was the Führer. At these discussions of the military situation the developments of the last 24 hours and the measures to be taken were discussed. These are the facts.

Therefore, one cannot say that any one of the participants had an over-all picture. Rather every one had a clear view of his own department for which he was responsible. An over-all picture in the mind of any of the participants is out of the question. Only the Führer had that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, I won’t argue with you; but I suppose, Defendant, that you say—as we have heard from so many other defendants—that you knew nothing about the slave-labor program, you knew nothing about the extermination of the Jews, and you knew nothing about any of the bad conditions in concentration camps. I suppose you are going to tell us you knew nothing about them at all, are you?

DÖNITZ: That is self-evident, since we have heard here how all these things were kept secret; and if one bears in mind the fact that everyone in this war was pursuing his own tasks with the maximum of energy, then it is no wonder at all. To give an example, I learned of the conditions in concentration camps...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I just want your answer for the moment, and you have given it to me. I want you to come to a point which was well within your own knowledge, and that is the order for the shooting of Commandos, which was issued by the Führer on 18 October 1942. You have told us that you got it when you were Flag Officer of U-boats. Now, do you remember the document by which the Naval Operations Staff distributed it? Do you remember that it said this:

“This order must not be distributed in writing by flotilla
leaders, section commanders, or officers of this rank.

“After verbal notification to subordinate sections the above
officers must hand this order over to the next higher section,
which is responsible for its withdrawal and destruction.”

Do you remember that?

DÖNITZ: Yes, I read that again when I saw the order here. But on the other side it says also that this measure had already been announced in the Wehrmacht order.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What I want to know from you is: Why was there this tremendous secrecy about this order in the naval distribution?

DÖNITZ: I did not understand that question. I do not know whether tremendous secrecy was being observed at all. I am of the opinion that in 1942 all naval officers had been informed about it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: This is on 28 October, 10 days after the order was issued. I am not going to quarrel with you about adjectives, Defendant. Let me put it this way: Why did the naval distribution require that degree of secrecy?

DÖNITZ: I do not know. I did not make up the distribution chart. As an officer at the front I received this order at that time. I do not know.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Within 3 months you were Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. Did you never make any inquiries then?

DÖNITZ: I beg your pardon.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you never make any inquiries?

DÖNITZ: No, I did not. I have told you that I saw this order as Commander of U-boats and that as far as my field of activities was concerned this order did not concern me in the least and, secondly, that men captured during naval engagements were expressly excepted; so, as far as that goes, this order at that time had no actual, no real significance. In view of the enormous number of things that I had to deal with when I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, it was quite natural that it did not occur to me to take up the question of this new order. I did not think of the order at all.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am going to put to you when the time comes a memorandum from the Naval Staff showing that it was put before you. Don’t you remember that?

DÖNITZ: If you are referring to the memorandum which is in my trial brief, then I can only say that this memorandum was not submitted to me, as can be clearly seen from this note.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What I want to ask you before the Tribunal adjourns is: Did you approve of this order or did you not?

DÖNITZ: I have already told you, as I...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, you haven’t. I want you to tell the Tribunal now, and you can answer it either “I approved” or “I did not approve.” Did you or did you not approve this order to your commanders?

DÖNITZ: Today I do not approve of that order since I have learned here that the basis was not so sound...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you agree with it when you were Commander-in-Chief of the German Navy at the beginning of 1943? Did you approve of it then?

DÖNITZ: As Commander-in-Chief of the Navy I was not concerned with this order. While I was Commander of U-boats, as I have already explained to you, I considered it simply a reprisal order. It was not up to me to start an investigation or to take it up with the office which had issued the order to find out whether the basis was correct or not. It was not up to me to start an investigation on the basis of international law. And it was quite clear in Point 1 of the order that here the enemy, the opponent, had placed himself outside the bounds of the Geneva Convention, because they were murdering prisoners, and that therefore we had to do certain things as reprisals. Whether these reprisal measures were necessary or whether they were fully justified by the conditions in Point 1, that is something I did not and could not know.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: This is the last question. I want you to try and answer it with a straight answer if you can. At the beginning of 1943 did you or did you not approve of this order?

DÖNITZ: I cannot give you an answer, because at the beginning of 1943 I did not think of the order and was not concerned with it. Therefore I cannot say how that order affected me at that particular time. I can tell you only how it affected me when I read it as Commander of U-boats; and I can also tell you that today I reject this order, now that I have learned that the basis on which it was issued was not so sound. And thirdly, I can tell you that I personally rejected any kind of reprisals in naval warfare—every kind, in every case, and whatever the proposal.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I will ask some more questions about it tomorrow, as the time has come to break off.

[_The Tribunal adjourned until 10 May 1946 at 1000 hours._]

ONE HUNDRED
AND TWENTY-SIXTH DAY
Friday, 10 May 1946

_Morning Session_

[_The Defendant Dönitz resumed the stand._]

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, I understand there are some supplementary applications for witnesses and documents, which would probably not take very long to discuss. Is that so?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I have not actually received the final instructions. I can find out in a very short time. I will get Major Barrington up. I am told that is so.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal, therefore, proposes to sit in open session tomorrow until a quarter to 12 dealing with the Trial in the ordinary course and then to take the supplementary applications at a quarter to 12 and then to adjourn into closed session.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, we shall be ready for them at a quarter to 12 tomorrow.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Defendant, the first document that I want you to look at with regard to the Führer Commando Order of 18 October 1942 is on Page 65 of the English document book and on Page 98 of the German document book. It is Document Number C-178, Exhibit USA-544. You will see that that document is dated 11 February 1943. That is some 12 days after you took over as Commander-in-Chief and you will see from the reference that it went to “1.SKL Ii.” That is the international law and prize law division of your operations staff, isn’t it—Admiral Eckardt’s division?

DÖNITZ: No. It is addressed to the first section of the Naval Operations Staff, that is, the operational section. It originates with Eckardt and is sent to the first section, that is, to the section chief.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But I think I am quite right—the reference about which I asked you, 1.SKL Ii, that is Admiral Eckardt’s department. That is the reference for Admiral Eckardt’s international law department?

DÖNITZ: No, no, no. It is the department in which Admiral Eckardt was also an official. Admiral Eckardt was an official in that department.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And the third SKL in the next line is the press department as you said, isn’t it?

DÖNITZ: No. The third section of the SKL collected information sent in for the Navy and reported on it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I note it was intelligence and press. Is that right or not?

DÖNITZ: Yes, it was intelligence and press.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I just want you to help the Tribunal on three points in this document. You remember I asked you yesterday about the secrecy standard of the original Führer order of 18 October. If you will look at the second paragraph you will see that it says:

“... was given the protection of top secret merely because it is
stated therein (1) that ... sabotage organization ... may have
portentous consequences ... and (2) that the shooting of
uniformed prisoners acting on military orders must be carried
out even after they have surrendered voluntarily and asked for
pardon.”

Do you see that?

DÖNITZ: Yes, I have read it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You agree that that was one of the reasons for giving the order top secrecy?

DÖNITZ: This exchange of notes between Eckardt and the section chief was not submitted to me, as is obvious from the initials noted in the book...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Is that the reason for you not answering my question? Do you agree that that is the reason for giving top secrecy to this document?

DÖNITZ: I do not know. I cannot tell you that, because I did not issue this Commando Order. It says in the Commando Order, on the one hand that these people had killed prisoners. That is the way I had read it as Commander, U-boat Fleet; and on the other hand...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I shall give you one more opportunity of answering my question. You were Commander-in-Chief of the German Navy. Do you say that you are not able to answer this question: Is the reason stated in Paragraph 2 of this document a correct reason for attaching top secrecy to the Führer order of 18 October? Now you have this final opportunity of answering that question. Will you answer it or won’t you?

DÖNITZ: Yes, I will do that. I consider it possible, particularly as the legal expert here thinks so. I do not know if it is correct, because I did not issue the order. On the other hand, it says in the order that these things would not be published in the army orders.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That was the next point. The next paragraph says that what is to be published in the army orders is the annihilation of sabotage units in battle, not, of course, if they are shot—as I would say, murdered—quietly, by the SD after battle. I want you to note the next paragraph. The next paragraph raises the difficulty as to how many saboteurs were to be considered as a sabotage unit and suggests that up to ten would certainly be a sabotage unit.

Now, if you look at the last paragraph—I will read it to you quite slowly:

“It is to be assumed that Counterintelligence III is acquainted
with the Führer orders and will therefore reply accordingly to
the objections of the Army General Staff and the Air Force
Operations Staff. As far as the Navy is concerned, it remains to
be seen whether or not this case should be used to make
sure”—note the next words—“after a conference with the
Commander-in-Chief of the Navy that all departments concerned
have an entirely clear conception regarding the treatment of
members of Commando units.”

Are you telling the Tribunal that after that minute from Eckardt’s department, which was to be shown to 1.SKL, your Chief of Staff’s department, that you were never consulted upon it?

DÖNITZ: Yes, I do say that, and I will prove by means of a witness that there are no initials or distribution list here; and this witness will prove quite clearly that I did not receive a report on it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Admiral Wagner was your Chief of Staff?

DÖNITZ: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: All right, we will not occupy further time.

DÖNITZ: He was not my Chief of Staff; he was chief of this section. He was Section Chief 1. SKL, to which this order was directed. He knows beyond doubt that no report was made to me. The circumstances are perfectly clear.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, I will leave that, if you say that you have not seen it; and I will ask you to look at Document Number 551-PS.

My Lord, I will pass the Tribunal a copy. This is Exhibit USA-551, and it was put in by General Taylor on 7 January.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Now, that is a document which is dated 26 June 1944; and it deals with the Führer order; and it says how it will apply after the landing of the Allied Forces in France; and if you will look at the distribution, you will see that Number 4 is to the OKM, 1. SKL. That is the department on which you were good enough to correct me a moment ago. Now, did you—were you shown that document, which says that the Führer order is to apply to Commando units operating outside the immediate combat area in Normandy? Were you shown that document?

DÖNITZ: No, that was not shown to me in any circumstances—and quite rightly, as the Navy did not take part in the affair.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You told me yesterday that you were concerned with the matter and that you had small boats operating in the Normandy operations. That is what you told me yesterday afternoon. You have changed your recollections since yesterday afternoon?

DÖNITZ: No, not at all. But these one-man submarines were floating on water and had nothing to do with Commandos on the land front. That is clear from this document, too—I do not know if it is the original of the 1. SKL because I cannot see the initial. I am convinced, however, that it was not submitted to me, because it had nothing to do with the Navy.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. Will you just look at Document Number 537-PS, which is dated 30 July 1944.

My Lord, that is Exhibit USA-553, also put in by General Taylor on 7 January.

DÖNITZ: Where is it?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The sergeant major will point to the place. That is the document applying the Commando Order to “military missions,” and you will see again later that the distribution includes OKM, Department SKL. Did you see that order?

DÖNITZ: Yes, I can see it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you see it at the time that it was distributed, at the end of July 1944?

DÖNITZ: It is quite certain that this order was not submitted to me because again it has nothing to do with the Navy. The Navy had nothing to do with fighting partisans.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I want you now just to look very quickly, because I do not want to spend too much time on it, at Document Number 512-PS.

My Lord, that is Exhibit USA-546, which was also put in by General Taylor on 7 January.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Now, that is a report dealing with the question of whether members of Commandos should not be murdered immediately in order that they could be interrogated, and the question is whether that is covered by the last sentence of the Führer order, and I call your attention to the fact that it refers, with regard to interrogations, in the second sentence:

“Importance of this measure was proven in the cases of
Glomfjord, the two-man torpedo at Trondheim, and the glider
plane at Stavanger.”

DÖNITZ: I cannot find it at the moment.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It is 512-PS.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, perhaps you ought to read the first sentence.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Lordship pleases.

DÖNITZ: This document dates from 1942. At that time I was Commander of U-boats from the Atlantic Coast to the Bay of Biscay. I do not know this paper at all.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is your answer, but it is 14 December 1942; and the point is put up which is raised in the first sentence which My Lord has just directed be read:

“Top secret: According to the last sentence of the Führer order
of 18 October, individual saboteurs can be spared for the time
being in order to keep them for interrogation.”

Then follows the sentence I have read. That was the point that was raised, and what I was going to ask you was, did that point come up to you when you took over the Commandership-in-Chief of the Navy in January 1943? Just look at the last sentence.

“The Red Cross and the BDS protested against the immediate
carrying out of the Führer order...”

DÖNITZ: I beg your pardon, but I still cannot find where that is. I have not yet found the last sentence. Where is it?

THE PRESIDENT: Our translation says “after the immediate carrying out....”

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: “After,” My Lord: I am sorry. It is my fault. I am greatly obliged to Your Lordship. “Protested after the immediate....” I beg Your Lordship’s pardon—I read it wrong.

DÖNITZ: That dates from December 1942.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It is only six weeks before you took over.

DÖNITZ: Yes. I do not know this teleprint. In any case, that is probably not Red Cross, but probably Reiko See, Reich Commissioner for Shipping—or so I assume. BDS is probably the SS leader in Norway.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But the point that I thought might have some interest for you was the two-man torpedoes. I thought that might have been referred to you as a matter of Navy interest. However, if it was not I will come to a document after you took over. Give the defendant Document Number 526-PS, on 10 May 1943.

My Lord, that is USA-502, and was put in by my friend Colonel Storey on 2 January.

[_Turning to the defendant._] You see that that is an account—it is from the Defendant Jodl’s department, and it is annotated for the Defendant Jodl’s department—about an enemy cutter which carried out an operation from the Shetlands, a cutter of the Norwegian Navy; and it gives its armament, and it says that it was an organization for sabotaging strong points, battery positions, staff and troop billets, and bridges and that the Führer order was executed by the SD. That was a cutter which was blown up by the Norwegian Navy, I suppose after they were attacked, and ten prisoners were murdered. Was that brought to your attention?

DÖNITZ: This was shown to me during an interrogation, and I was also asked if I had not had a telephone conversation with Field Marshal Keitel. It was afterwards found to be the Wehrmacht area commander who had contacted the OKW. It was a matter for the Army and for the SD, not for the Navy.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If you deny that you ever heard about that, will you turn to Page 100 of the document book.

My Lord, it is Page 67 of the British document book.

[_Turning to the defendant._] And that is a summary, a summary of the trial of the SD...

DÖNITZ: Where is it? I cannot find it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Page 100, I have told you. If you will look for it, I think you will find it. It is Page 67 of the English, if you prefer to follow it in that language.

Now I will explain to you; I think you have read it before because you have referred to it. That is a summary by the judge advocate at the trial of the SS men of the evidence that was given, and I just want to see that you have it in mind.

If you will look at Paragraph 4, you will see that they set out from Lerwick, in the Shetlands, on this naval operation for the purpose of making torpedo attacks on German shipping off the Norwegian coasts and for the purpose of laying mines. Paragraph 5:

“The defense did not challenge that each member of the crew was
wearing uniform at the time of capture; and there was abundant
evidence from many persons, several of whom were German, that
they were wearing uniforms at all times after their capture.”

Now, you mentioned this yesterday. You see that in Paragraph 6:

“Deponent states that the whole of the crew was captured and
taken on board a German naval vessel which was under the command
of Admiral Von Schrader, the Admiral of the West Coast. The crew
were taken to the Bergenhus; and there they were interrogated by
Lieutenant H. P. K. W. Fanger, a lieutenant of the Naval
Reserve, on the orders of Korvettenkapitän Egon Drascher, both
of the German Naval Counterintelligence; and this interrogation
was carried out upon the orders of the Admiral of the West
Coast. Lieutenant Fanger reported to the officer in charge of
the intelligence branch at Bergen that, in his opinion, all
members of the crew were entitled to be treated as prisoners of
war and that officer in turn reported both orally and in writing
to the Sea Commander, Bergen, and in writing to the Admiral of
the West Coast.”—And that is Admiral Von Schrader.

Now I want just to read you the one sentence which, in view of that, I do not think you will think is taken out of context of the evidence given by Lieutenant Fanger at this trial. He was asked:

“Have you any idea at all why these people were handed over to
the SD?”

In answering that question I want you to tell me who was responsible for their being handed over. This was your officers, your outfit; that was the general in command of the Norwegian coast, Admiral Von Schrader in command of this section, whose people captured the crew. That is your own officers. Is it true what you told the Court yesterday that the crew were captured by the SD? Have you any reason to believe Lieutenant Fanger is not telling the truth?

THE PRESIDENT: What is that you were quoting from then?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It is the shorthand notes taken on the trial of the SS.

THE PRESIDENT: Has it been admitted?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, My Lord, it has not been, but it was within Article 19.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I do not know the document which has been used. May I have it, please? Shorthand notes which I have not seen are being used; and according to the Tribunal’s ruling on cross-examinations they must be given to me when the witness is heard.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, with great respect, but this point arose yesterday when the defendant made certain statements with regard to Admiral Von Schrader. I am questioning these statements, and the only way I can do it is to use documents which I did not otherwise intend to use. I shall, of course, let Dr. Kranzbühler see them in due course.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you a copy of the German? That was to have been given in German, that evidence.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have only the English transcript and I am willing to let Dr. Kranzbühler see it, but it is all I have.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you got any other copy you can hand him?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, I only was sent one copy.

THE PRESIDENT: After you are through with it, will you please hand that copy to Dr. Kranzbühler?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, Sir.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, have you any reason to suppose, Defendant, that your officer, Lieutenant Fanger, is not telling the truth when he says that these men were captured by Admiral Von Schrader?

DÖNITZ: I have no reason to question that statement because the whole affair is completely unknown to me. I have already stated that the incident was not reported to me nor—as I can prove—to the High Command of the Navy; and I told you yesterday that I could only assume, in consequence, that these men—here it is, in Paragraph 6—were captured on an island, not by the Navy but by a detachment of the Police. Consequently Admiral Von Schrader said that they were not Navy prisoners but Police prisoners and must be handed back to the Police; and for this reason he did not make a report.

I assume that that is what happened. I myself cannot furnish the full details of this story or explain how it came about, because it was not reported to me at the time.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is the point I will get to in a moment. It nowhere states in this document that they were captured by the Police, and in fact that they were captured by the forces under Admiral Von Schrader, who attacked this island to which this boat was moored.

DÖNITZ: I do not know about that. The document says that the men reached the island—the reason is not clear. That the men were brought back from the island afterwards in some sort of boat is quite clear; but naturally they might remain Police prisoners if they were captured there by the Police or the coast guards. That is the only explanation I can think of, in view of Admiral Von Schrader’s personality.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I just asked you—your own officer, Lieutenant Fanger, says they were captured by Admiral Von Schrader’s troops, and you say if Lieutenant Fanger says that you have no reason to believe he is not telling the truth, is that right?

DÖNITZ: Yes. My estimate of Von Schrader’s personality caused me to assume yesterday that it happened like that. Since I am informed today of a Lieutenant Fanger’s statement, things may have happened differently for I may be wrong.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Will you look at the end of Paragraph 8, the last sentence:

“There was an interview between Blomberg of the SS and Admiral
Von Schrader....”

And then the last sentence:

“Admiral Von Schrader told Blomberg that the crew of this
torpedo boat were to be handed over in accordance with the
Führer orders to the SD.”—and then they were handed over.

And the official of the SD who carried out this interrogation stated at the trial:

“...that after the interrogation he was of the opinion that the
members of the crew were entitled to be treated as prisoners of
war, and that he so informed his superior officer.”

Despite this report and the representations of a superior officer the crew were dealt with under the Führer order and executed, and it describes how they were shot and their bodies secretly disposed of. Do you say you never heard about that?

DÖNITZ: No. I do say that and I have witnesses to prove it. If the SD official thought that these men did not come under that head, he would have been obliged to report that to his superiors and his superiors would have been obliged to take the appropriate steps.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You say, you already take the position that the Navy had interrogated them, the Navy Intelligence said they should be treated as prisoners of war, and Admiral Von Schrader said they should be handed over to the SS and that the SS examined them and said they should be treated as prisoners of war, and despite that these men are murdered? And you say you knew nothing about it? Did your Kapitän zur See Wildemann say anything to you concerning this? W-i-l-d-e-m-a-n-n.

DÖNITZ: I do not know him.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let me try to bring him to your recollection. At this time he was an officer on the staff of Admiral Von Schrader and dealt with this matter. Now, Kapitän Wildemann, and I suppose we should assume, unless you know anything to the contrary, that he is a trustworthy officer, says:

“I know that Von Schrader made a written report on this action,
and I know of no reason why the handing over of the prisoners to
the SD should not have been reported on.”

Do you still say you never got any report from Von Schrader?

DÖNITZ: Yes, I still say that I did not receive any report, and I am equally convinced that the High Command of the Navy did not receive it either. I have a witness to prove that. I do not know where the report went. Admiral Von Schrader was not directly responsible to the High Command of the Navy; and the report may have been sent to the OKW, if this report was made at all. At any rate the High Command of the Navy did not receive a report on this particular matter, hence my assumption that these men were captured on the island in the first place by the Police. Otherwise, I think Admiral Von Schrader would have reported it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Before you make any further statement, I would like you to have in mind something further that Kapitän Wildemann said, which you know probably quite well, “After the capitulation Admiral Von Schrader many times said that the English would hold him responsible for handing over the prisoners to the SD,” and Admiral Von Schrader was under orders to proceed to England as a prisoner when he shot himself. Did you know Admiral Von Schrader shot himself?

DÖNITZ: I heard it here.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you know he was worried about being held responsible for this order?

DÖNITZ: No, I had not the slightest idea of that. I only heard of his suicide here.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Are you still telling the Tribunal that Admiral Von Schrader made no report to you? Do you remember a few days after the capture of this M.T.B. Admiral Von Schrader received the Knight’s Cross of the Iron Cross?

DÖNITZ: Yes, but that has no connection with this matter. He did not make a report on this matter and he did not go to Berlin for his Knight’s Cross either, as far as I remember.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Two other officers, Oberleutnant Nelle and Seeoberfähnrich Böhm were decorated; and in the recommendations and citations the capture of this M.T.B. was given as the reason for this decoration. You say you knew nothing about it?

DÖNITZ: I know nothing about it and I cannot know anything about it, because the competent superior officers would have dealt with these decorations and not myself. The High Command of the Navy did not receive a report on this matter; otherwise it would have been passed on to me. I have that much confidence in my High Command, and my witness will testify that he did not receive it either and that he must have done so if it had gone to the Navy.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My final question, and I leave this subject: Admiral Von Schrader was your junior officer, and according to you, a very gallant officer. Do you want the Tribunal to understand that the responsibility which broke and made Admiral Von Schrader commit suicide was his responsibility, that he never consulted you and you were taking no responsibility for his acts? Is that what you want the Tribunal to understand?

DÖNITZ: Yes. I will swear to that; because if Admiral Von Schrader really committed suicide on account of this incident, then he did make a mistake because he treated naval personnel, engaged in a naval operation, in a wrong manner. If that is correct, he acted against orders. In any case, not even the slightest hint of the affair reached me.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, will you ask the witness what he meant when he said that Von Schrader was not directly under the Navy? He was under Admiral Ciliax, wasn’t he, who was on leave at this time?

DÖNITZ: I said that he was not directly under the High Command of the Navy in Berlin. So if Admiral Von Schrader made any report on the affair, the report did not come to me directly but went to his immediate superior, who was in Norway.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And that immediate superior was Admiral Ciliax who was on leave—but omit the leave for the moment; his immediate superior was Admiral Ciliax?

DÖNITZ: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I want to put it perfectly fairly: Do you mean that for operations in Norway Admiral Ciliax was acting under the commander—correct me if I am wrong—was it General Von Falkenhorst? I cannot remember, perhaps you can help me. Do you remember that this Admiral was acting under the commander-in-chief in Norway so that you will tell the Tribunal...

DÖNITZ: Yes, as far as territory was concerned Admiral Ciliax was not under the High Command of the Navy but under the Wehrmacht Commander for Norway, General Von Falkenhorst; but I can only say that if Schrader’s suicide is connected with this affair, then the Commando Order was not properly carried out when these men, who were naval personnel and had been sent into a naval action, were not treated as prisoners of war. If that is what happened—I do not know—then a mistake was made locally.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But at any rate you say that despite these decorations for this action you as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy knew nothing about it at all. That is what you say?

DÖNITZ: I awarded the Knight’s Cross to Admiral Von Schrader for entirely different reasons. I awarded it. I knew nothing about decorations awarded to the other people you mentioned. It has nothing to do with me because their immediate superiors would attend to that. Nor do I know whether these awards are really connected with the story or if they were given for other reasons. I still cannot imagine—and I do not believe—that a man like Admiral Von Schrader would treat naval personnel in this way. The document does not say that they were killed in a naval action but that they were captured on an island. It seems to me peculiar that the High Command of the Navy should have received no report on it, since orders to that effect had been given, and that the Wehrmacht report should make no reference to it in accordance with the Commando Order. All these factors are against it. I personally am unable to form an opinion as to the affair.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Defendant, I am not going into details. You may take it from me that the evidence at the trial has been that this cutter was attacked by two naval task forces. If Dr. Kranzbühler finds I am wrong I will be happy to admit it. But we will pass on to another subject. Time is going.

Would you turn to Page 105 of the document book?

DÖNITZ: Then I can only say that it is a clear violation of orders and that the High Command of the Navy was not informed.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I want you to come to this next point, 105 in the German, 71 in the English document book. Now we needn’t have any trouble about this document because it is signed by you. It is a memorandum about the question of more labor for shipbuilding; and you are probably very familiar with it. But will you look at the first sentence?

DÖNITZ: I beg your pardon, but what page is it?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Page 105, Exhibit GB-211 (Document Number C-195), English Page 71.

DÖNITZ: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, if you would look at the first sentence.

“Furthermore, I propose reinforcing the shipyard working party
by prisoners from the concentration camps.”

I don’t think we need trouble with coppersmiths, but if you will look at the end of the document, the very last, you will see Item 2 of the summing-up reads:

“12,000 concentration camp prisoners will be employed in the
shipyards as additional labor. Security service agrees to this.”

Now, that is your document, so...

DÖNITZ: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: So we may take it that you were familiar with the fact of the existence of concentration camps?

DÖNITZ: I have never denied it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And I think you went further, didn’t you, when asked about this on 28 September? At that time you said:

“I generally knew that we had concentration camps. That is
clear.

“Question: ‘From whom did you learn that?’

“Answer: ‘The whole German people knew that.’”

Don’t you remember saying that?

DÖNITZ: Yes. The German people knew that concentration camps existed; but they did not know anything about the conditions and methods therein.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It must have been rather a surprise for you when the Defendant Von Ribbentrop said he only heard of two: Oranienburg and Dachau? It was rather a surprise to you, was it?

DÖNITZ: No, it was not at all surprising, because I myself only knew of Dachau and Oranienburg.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But you say here you knew there were concentration camps. Where did you think you were going to get your labor from? What camps?

DÖNITZ: From these camps.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you think that all your labor was going to be German or that it was going to be partly foreign labor?

DÖNITZ: I did not think about that at all. I should like to explain now how these demands came to be made.