Chapter I: Front Matter (1)

[Cover Illustration]

TRIAL
OF
THE MAJOR WAR CRIMINALS

BEFORE

THE INTERNATIONAL
MILITARY TRIBUNAL

N U R E M B E R G
14 NOVEMBER 1945—1 OCTOBER 1946

P U B L I S H E D A T N U R E M B E R G , G E R M A N Y
1 9 4 8

This volume is published in accordance with the
direction of the International Military Tribunal by
the Secretariat of the Tribunal, under the jurisdiction
of the Allied Control Authority for Germany.

VOLUME XIII

O F F I C I A L T E X T

I N T H E

ENGLISH LANGUAGE

P R O C E E D I N G S

3 May 1946—15 May 1946

CONTENTS

One Hundred and Twentieth Day, Friday, 3 May 1946,
Morning Session 1
Afternoon Session 44

One Hundred and Twenty-first Day, Saturday, 4 May 1946,
Morning Session 80

One Hundred and Twenty-second Day, Monday, 6 May 1946,
Morning Session 103
Afternoon Session 129

One Hundred and Twenty-third Day, Tuesday, 7 May 1946,
Morning Session 166
Afternoon Session 203

One Hundred and Twenty-fourth Day, Wednesday, 8 May 1946,
Morning Session 231
Afternoon Session 246

One Hundred and Twenty-fifth Day, Thursday, 9 May 1946,
Morning Session 267
Afternoon Session 296

One Hundred and Twenty-sixth Day, Friday, 10 May 1946,
Morning Session 330
Afternoon Session 372

One Hundred and Twenty-seventh Day, Saturday, 11 May 1946,
Morning Session 410

One Hundred and Twenty-eighth Day, Monday, 13 May 1946,
Morning Session 437
Afternoon Session 467

One Hundred and Twenty-ninth Day, Tuesday, 14 May 1946,
Morning Session 496
Afternoon Session 523

One Hundred and Thirtieth Day, Wednesday, 15 May 1946,
Morning Session 559
Afternoon Session 600

ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTIETH DAY
Friday, 3 May 1946

_Morning Session_

[_The Defendant Schacht resumed the stand._]

THE PRESIDENT (Lord Justice Sir Geoffrey Lawrence): The Tribunal will sit in open session tomorrow at 10 o’clock and will adjourn into closed session at 12 noon.

Mr. Justice Jackson and Defendant Schacht: It is desired on behalf of the interpreters that you should pause if possible after the question has been put to you and if you find it necessary, owing to the condition of the documents with which you are dealing, to read in English or speak in English, to give an adequate pause so that those interpreters who are interpreting from English into other languages can take over the interpretation. Is that clear?

MR. JUSTICE ROBERT H. JACKSON (Chief of Counsel for the United States): I owe an apology constantly to the interpreters. It is hard to overcome the habit of a lifetime.

THE PRESIDENT: It is very difficult.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: [_Turning to the defendant._] Dr. Schacht, by the way, the photograph Number 10 which was shown you yesterday, that was one of the occasions on which you wore the Party Badge which you referred to, was it not?

HJALMAR SCHACHT (Defendant): That may be.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You are quite sure of that, are you not?

SCHACHT: I cannot distinguish it clearly; but it may be, and that would prove that the picture must have been taken after 1937.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is what I wanted to prove. And as a matter of fact, it was taken after 1941, was it not? As a matter of fact, Bormann did not come to any important official position until after 1941, did he?

SCHACHT: Bormann?

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Bormann, yes.

SCHACHT: That I do not know.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, if we return to the Four Year Plan which began in 1936, as I understand it you opposed the appointment of Göring to have charge of the Four Year Plan on two grounds: First, you thought that that new plan might interfere with your functions; and secondly, if there were to be a Four Year Plan, you did not think Göring was fit to administer it?

SCHACHT: I do not know what you mean by “opposed.” I was not satisfied with it and considered the choice of Göring not the right one for any leading position in economics.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: As a matter of fact you have described Göring as a fool in economics, have you not?

SCHACHT: Yes, as one does say such things in a heated conversation.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Or in interrogation?

SCHACHT: Interrogations are also sometimes heated.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, very soon Göring began to interfere with your functions, did he not?

SCHACHT: He tried it repeatedly, I believe.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, he got away with it too, did he not?

SCHACHT: I do not understand what you mean by “he got away with it.”

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, this American slang is difficult, I admit. I mean he succeeded.

SCHACHT: In July 1937 he had me completely against the wall.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That started over a proposal that he made or a measure that he took with reference to mining?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: He also made a speech to some industrialists, did he not?

SCHACHT: I assume that he made several speeches to industrialists. I do not know to which one you are referring. I presume you mean the speech in December 1936 or so.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I am referring to the speech in which you said to us in interrogation that Göring had assembled industrialists and said a lot of foolish things about the economy which you had to refute.

SCHACHT: That was the meeting of 17 December 1936.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And then you wrote to Göring complaining about the mining measures?

SCHACHT: I assume that you mean the letter of 5 August?

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Right. That document is Document EC-497, Exhibit USA-775. And in that letter of August 1937 you said this, if I quote you correctly:

“Meanwhile I repeatedly stressed the need of increased exports
and actively worked towards that end. The very necessity of
bringing our armament up to a certain level as rapidly as
possible must place in the foreground the idea of as large
returns as possible in foreign exchange and therewith the
greatest possible assurance of raw material supplies.”

Correct?

SCHACHT: I assume it is.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you also said this, I believe:

“I have held this view of the economic situation which I have
explained above from the first moment of my collaboration.”

That was also true, was it not?

SCHACHT: Yes, certainly.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, both of those things were true, were they not?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And then you concluded, addressing Göring:

“I ask you to believe me, my dear Prime Minister, that it is far
from me to interfere with your policies in any way whatsoever. I
offer no opinion, either, as to whether my views, which are not
in agreement with your economic policy, are correct or not. I
have full sympathy for your activities. I do believe, however,
that in a totalitarian state it is wholly impossible to conduct
two divergent economic policies.”

And that was also true, was it not?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And that was the basis on which you and Göring disagreed so far as policy was concerned?

SCHACHT: So far as what was concerned?—Policy? I do not understand what you mean by policy. I mean the way business was conducted.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes.

SCHACHT: Entirely aside from other differences which we had.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: These other differences were personal differences. You and Göring did not get along well together?

SCHACHT: On the contrary. Until then we were on very friendly terms with each other.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Oh, were you?

SCHACHT: Oh, yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So the beginning of your differences with Göring was the struggle as to which of you would dominate the preparations for war?

SCHACHT: No.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well...

SCHACHT: I have to deny that absolutely. The differences...

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you want to say anything more about it?

SCHACHT: The differences which led to my resignation resulted from the fact that Göring wanted to assume command over economic policies while I was to have the responsibility for them. And I was of the opinion that he who assumes responsibility should also have command; and if one has command then he also has to assume the responsibility. That is the formal reason why I asked for my release.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well now, I turn to your interrogation of 16 October 1945, Document 3728-PS, Exhibit USA-636, and ask if you did not give the following testimony:

“After Göring had taken over the Four Year Plan—and I must say
after he had taken over the control of Devisen, already since
April 1936—but still more after the Four Year Plan in September
1936, he had always tried to get control of the whole economic
policy. One of the objects, of course, was the post of
Plenipotentiary for War Economy in the case of war, being only
too anxious to get everything into his hands, he tried to get
that away from me. Certainly as long as I had the position of
Minister of Economics, I objected to that...”

You made that statement?

SCHACHT: I believe that is correct.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes, and then you describe your last visit with him after Luther for two months had endeavored to unite Göring and yourself.

SCHACHT: That is a mistake; it is Hitler, and not Luther.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Very well.

You described it as follows:

“Then I had a last talk with Göring; and at the end of this talk
Göring said, ‘But I must have the right to give orders to you.’
Then I said, ‘Not to me, but to my successor.’ I have never
taken orders from Göring; and I would never have done it,
because he was a fool in economics and I knew something about
it, at least.

“Question: ‘Well, I gather that was a culminating, progressive,
personal business between you and Göring. That seems perfectly
obvious.’

“Answer: ‘Certainly.’”

Is that correct?

SCHACHT: Yes, certainly.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And then the interrogator went on:

“Let us go into the duties of that job for a moment and see what
he was trying to take away from you. There are only two
possibilities, as it has been explained to me; if I am wrong,
correct me. One would be the preparation for a mobilization, and
the other would be the actual taking charge of this in the event
of war. Otherwise, the post had no meaning. So the things you
resisted his taking away from you, as I see it, were the right
to be in charge of the preparation for mobilization and,
secondly, the right to control in the event of war.

“Answer: ‘Correct.’”

Did you give that testimony?

SCHACHT: Please, Mr. Justice, you are confusing the events in relation to time. The differences with Göring about this so-called Plenipotentiary for War Economy occurred in the winter 1936-37; and the so-called last conversation with Göring which you have just mentioned took place in November 1937. I stated, I believe in January 1937, that I was prepared to turn over the office and the activity as Plenipotentiary for War Economy immediately to Göring. That can be found in the memorandum from the Jodl Diary which has been frequently mentioned here.

At that time the War Ministry, and Blomberg in particular, asked to have me kept in the position of Plenipotentiary for War Economy, since I was the Minister of Economy, as long as I was the Minister of Economy. You can find the correspondence about that, which I think has already been submitted by you to the Tribunal.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, all right; I think the dates appear in your testimony. I am not concerned at the moment with the sequence of events; I am concerned with the functions that you were quarreling over, and which you described in your interrogations. And the questions and answers which I read to you are correct; these are the answers you made at the time, are they not?

SCHACHT: Yes, but I must say the following: If you ask me about these individual phases, it will give an entirely different picture if you do not single out the different periods. Mr. Justice, surely you cannot mention events of January and November in the same breath and then ask me if that is correct. That is not correct.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, let us get what is wrong about this, if anything.

When was your last conversation with Göring in which you told him he would give orders to your successor but not to you?

SCHACHT: November 1937.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, the question as to the duties of the job has nothing to do with relation to time, has it? That is, the Plenipotentiary for War Economy, the disagreement between you and Göring, and in order to make it perfectly clear I will read this question and answer to you again, and I am not concerned with time; I am concerned with your description of the job.

“Question: ‘Let us go into the duties of that job for a moment
and see what he was trying to take away from you. Now, there are
only two possibilities, as it has been explained to me; if I am
wrong, correct me. One would be the preparation for a
mobilization, and the other would be the actual taking charge of
this in the event of war. Otherwise the post had no meaning. So
the things you resisted his taking away from you, as I see it,
were the right to be in charge of the preparation for
mobilization and, secondly, the right to control in the event of
war.’”

And you answered, “correct,” did you not?

SCHACHT: This difference...

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Can you answer me first as to whether you did give that answer to that question, that it was correct?

SCHACHT: Yes, the minutes are correct. And now I should like...

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: All right.

SCHACHT: But now please let me finish.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: All right, go ahead with your explanation.

SCHACHT: Yes. Now I wish to say that that disagreement between Göring and myself had absolutely nothing to do with the conversation of November, and that it was not even a disagreement between Göring and myself. That disagreement which you have just read about occurred in January 1937, but it was not at all a difference of opinion between Göring and myself because I said right away, “Relieve me of the post of Plenipotentiary for War Economy and turn it over to Göring.” And the War Ministry, that is, Herr Von Blomberg, protested against this, not I. I was delighted to turn over that office to Göring.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Is there anything in writing about that, Dr. Schacht?

SCHACHT: The documents which you have submitted here. I would like to ask my counsel to look for these documents and to present them during the re-examination. They have been submitted by the Prosecution.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, is it not a fact that your controversy with Göring was a controversy of a personal character, between you and him, for control and not a controversy as to the question of armament? You both wanted to rearm as rapidly as possible.

SCHACHT: I do not want to continue that play with words as to whether it was personal or anything else, Mr. Justice. I had differences with Göring on the subject; and if you ask whether it was on armament, speed, or extent, I reply that I was at greatest odds with Göring in regard to these points.

I have never denied that I wanted to rearm in order to gain equality of position for Germany. I never wanted to rearm any further. Göring wanted to go further; and this is one difference which cannot be overlooked.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now I do not want to play upon words; and if you say my reference to it as personal is a play upon words, you force me to go into what you told us about Göring.

Is it not a fact that you told Major Tilley this?

“Whereas I have called Hitler an amoral type of person, I can
regard Göring only as immoral and criminal. Endowed by nature
with a certain geniality which he managed to exploit for his own
popularity, he was the most egocentric being imaginable. The
assumption of political power was for him only a means to
personal enrichment and personal good living. The success of
others filled him with envy. His greed knew no bounds. His
predilection for jewels, gold and finery, _et cetera_, was
unimaginable. He knew no comradeship. Only as long as someone
was useful to him did he profess friendship.

“Göring’s knowledge in all fields in which a government member
should be competent was nil, especially in the economic field.
Of all the economic matters which Hitler entrusted to him in the
autumn of 1936 he had not the faintest notion, though he created
an immense official apparatus and misused his powers as lord of
all economy most outrageously. In his personal appearance he was
so theatrical that one could only compare him with Nero. A lady
who had tea with his second wife reported that he appeared at
this tea in a sort of Roman toga and sandals studded with
jewels, his fingers bedecked with innumerable jewelled rings and
generally covered with ornaments, his face painted and his lips
rouged.”

Did you give that statement to Major Tilley?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes. And you say you had no personal differences with Göring?

SCHACHT: Mr. Justice, I ask here again that the different periods of time should not be confused. I found out about all these things only later and not at the time of which you speak, that is, the year 1936.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you dispute the testimony of Gisevius that in 1935 he told you about Göring’s complicity in the whole Gestapo setup?

SCHACHT: I have testified here that I knew about the Gestapo camps which Göring had set up and said that I was opposed to them. I do not at all deny that.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But your friendship continued despite that knowledge.

SCHACHT: I have never had a friendship with Göring.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well...

SCHACHT: I surely cannot refuse to work with him, especially as long as I do not know what kind of a man he is.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: All right. Let us take up foreign relations, about which you have made a good deal of complaint here. I think you have testified that in 1937 when you were doing all this rearming, you did not envisage any kind of a war, is that right?

SCHACHT: No, what you are saying, Mr. Justice, is not correct. In 1937 I did not do everything to rearm; but from 1935, from the fall of 1935 on, I tried everything possible to slow down the rearming.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: All right. I refer you to your interrogation of 16 October 1945, and ask whether you gave these answers to these questions:

“Question: ‘Let me ask you then, in 1937 what kind of war did
you envisage?’

“Answer: ‘I never envisaged a war. We might have been attacked,
invaded by somebody; but even that I never expected.’

“Question: ‘You did not expect that. Did you expect a
possibility of a mobilization and concentration of economic
forces in the event of war?’

“Answer: ‘In the event of an attack against Germany, certainly.’

“Question: ‘Now, putting your mind back to 1937, are you able to
say what sort of an attack you were concerned with?’

“Answer: ‘I do not know, Sir.’

“Question: ‘Did you have thoughts on that at the time?’

“Answer: ‘No, never.’

“Question: ‘Did you then consider that the contingency of war in
1937 was so remote as to be negligible?’

“Answer: ‘Yes.’

“Question: ‘You did?’

“Answer: ‘Yes.’” (Document Number 3728-PS)

Did you give those answers?

SCHACHT: I have made exactly the same statements as found in this interrogation, here before the Tribunal.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you testified that you tried to divert Hitler’s plan which was to move and expand to the East—you tried to divert his attention to colonies instead.

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What colonies? You have never specified.

SCHACHT: Our colonies.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And where were they located?

SCHACHT: I assume that you know that exactly as well as I do.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You are the witness, Dr. Schacht. I want to know what you were telling Hitler, not what I know.

SCHACHT: Oh, what I told Hitler? I told Hitler we should try to get back a part of the colonies which belonged to us and the administration of which was taken away from us, so that we could work there.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What colonies?

SCHACHT: I was thinking especially of the African colonies.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And those African colonies you would regard as essential to your plan for the future of Germany?

SCHACHT: Not those, but generally any colonial activity; and of course, at first, I could only limit my colonial desires to our own property.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And your property, as you call it, was the African colonies?

SCHACHT: Not I personally called them that. That is what the Treaty of Versailles calls them—“our property.”

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Any way you wish it, you wanted the colonies you are talking about.

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You considered that the possession and exploitation of colonies was necessary to the sort of Germany that you had in mind creating?

SCHACHT: If you would replace the word “exploitation” by “development,” I believe there will be no misunderstanding, and to that extent I agree with you completely.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, by “development” you mean trading, and I suppose you expected to make a profit out of trade?

SCHACHT: No, not only “trade” but “developing the natural resources” or the economic possibilities of the colonies.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And it was your proposal that Germany should become reliant upon those colonies instead of relying on expansion to the East?

SCHACHT: I considered every kind of expansion within the European continent as sheer folly.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you agreed with Hitler that expansion, either colonial or to the East, was a necessary condition of the kind of Germany you wanted to create.

SCHACHT: No, that I never said. I told him it was nonsense to undertake anything toward the East. Only colonial development could be considered.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you proposed as a matter of policy that Germany’s development should depend on colonies with which there was no overland trade route to Germany and which, as you knew, would require a naval power to protect them.

SCHACHT: I do not think that at all—how do you get that idea?

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you do not get to Africa overland, do you? You have to go by water at some point, do you not?

SCHACHT: You can go by air.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was your trade route? You were thinking only of air developments?

SCHACHT: No, no. I thought of ships also.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes. And Germany was not then a naval power?

SCHACHT: I believe we had a merchant marine which was quite considerable.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did your colonial plan involve rearmament by way of making Germany a naval power to protect the trade routes to the colonies that you were proposing?

SCHACHT: Not in the least.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then your plan was to leave the trade route unprotected?

SCHACHT: Oh, no. I believed that international law would be sufficient protection.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, that is what you disagreed with Hitler about.

SCHACHT: We never spoke about that.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, in any event he rejected your plan for colonial developments?

SCHACHT: Oh, no. I have explained here that upon my urgent request he gave me the order in summer 1936 to take up these colonial matters.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not give these answers in your interrogation, Dr. Schacht?

“Question: ‘In other words, at the time of your talks with
Hitler in 1931 and 1932 concerning colonial policy, you did not
find him, shall we say, enthusiastic about the possibility?’

“Answer: ‘Neither enthusiastic nor very much interested.’

“Question: ‘But he expressed to you what his views were
alternatively to the possibility of obtaining colonies?’

“Answer: ‘No, we did not go into other alternatives.’”

Did you give those answers?

SCHACHT: Certainly.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, after the Fritsch affair, at least, you knew that Hitler was not intent upon preserving the peace of Europe by all possible means.

SCHACHT: Yes, I had my doubts.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And after the Austrian Anschluss you knew that the Wehrmacht was an important factor in his Eastern policy?

SCHACHT: Well, you may express it that way. I do not know exactly what you mean by it.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, do not answer anything if you do not know what I mean, because we will make it clear as we go along. Except for the suggestion of colonies you proposed no other alternative to his plan of expansion to the East?

SCHACHT: No.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Never at any Cabinet meeting or elsewhere did you propose any other alternative?

SCHACHT: No.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, as to the move into Austria, I think you gave these answers:

“Question: ‘Actually Hitler did not use the precise method that
you say you favored?’

“Answer: ‘Not at all.’

“Question: ‘Did you favor the method that he did employ?’

“Answer: ‘Not at all, Sir.’

“Question: ‘What was there in his method that you did not like?’

“Answer: ‘Oh, it was simply overrunning, just taking the
Austrians over the head—or what do you call it? It was force,
and I have never been in favor of such force.’”

Did you give those answers?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you have made considerable complaint here that foreigners did not come to your support at various times in your efforts to block Hitler, have you not?

SCHACHT: Certainly.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You knew at the time of the Austrian Anschluss the attitude of the United States towards the Nazi regime, as expressed by President Roosevelt, did you not?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you knew of his speech suggesting that the Nazi menace ought to be quarantined to prevent its spread?

SCHACHT: I do not remember; but I certainly must have read it at that time, if it was published in Germany, as I assume it was.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Goebbels let loose a campaign of attack on the President as a result of it, did he not?

SCHACHT: I assume I read that.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: As a matter of fact, you joined in the attack on foreigners who were criticizing the methods, did you not?

SCHACHT: When and where? What attacks?

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: All right. After the Austrian Anschluss, when force was used, with your disapproval, you immediately went in and took over the Austrian National Bank, did you not?

SCHACHT: That was my duty.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes. Well, you did it.

SCHACHT: Of course.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you liquidated it for the account of the Reich.

SCHACHT: Not liquidated; I merged it, amalgamated it.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I beg your pardon?

SCHACHT: Amalgamated.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Amalgamated it. And you took over the personnel?

SCHACHT: Everything.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes. And the decree doing so was signed by you.

SCHACHT: Certainly.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes. And you called the employees together on 21 March 1938.

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And made a speech to them.

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you say the following among other things...

SCHACHT: Certainly.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you have not heard it yet.

SCHACHT: Yes, I heard it during the case of the Prosecution.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I would like to quote some of it to you and remind you of it.

“I think it is quite useful if we recall these things to our
mind in order to expose all the sanctimonious hypocrisy exuding
from the foreign press. Thank God, these things could after all
not hinder the great German people on their way, for Adolf
Hitler has created a communion of German will and German
thought. He has bolstered it up with the newly strengthened
Wehrmacht, and he has thereby given the external aspect to the
inner union between Germany and Austria.

“I am known for sometimes expressing thoughts which give
offense; nor would I care to depart from this custom today.”

“Hilarity” is noted at this point in your speech.

“I know that there are even here in this country a few people—I
believe they are not too numerous—who find fault with the
events of the last few days. But nobody, I believe, doubts the
goal; and it should be said to all hecklers that you cannot
satisfy everybody. There are those who say they would have done
it in some other way, perhaps, but strange to say they did not
do it”—and in parentheses the word “hilarity” appears again.
Continuing with your speech—“it was done by our Adolf Hitler
(Long, continued applause); and if there is still something left
to be improved, then those hecklers should try to bring about
these improvements from within the German Reich and the German
community and not disturb it from without.” (Document EC-297)

Did you use that language?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In other words, you publicly ridiculed those who were complaining of the methods, did you not?

SCHACHT: If that is the way you see it.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then you also, in addressing the personnel of the Austrian National Bank, which you were taking over, said this:

“I consider it completely impossible that even a single person
will find a future with us who is not wholeheartedly for Adolf
Hitler. (Loud, continued applause; shouts of ‘Sieg Heil’).”

Continuing with the speech:

“Whoever does not do so had better withdraw from our circle of
his own accord. (Loud applause).”

Is that what happened?

SCHACHT: Yes, they all agreed, surprisingly.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, had the Reichsbank before 1933 and 1934 been a political institution?

SCHACHT: No.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Had politics been in the Reichsbank?

SCHACHT: Never.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, on this day, speaking to its employees, you said this, did you not?

“The Reichsbank will always be nothing but National Socialist,
or I shall cease to be its manager. (Heavy, protracted
applause).”

Did that happen?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, Sir, you have said that you never took the oath to Hitler.

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I ask you if this is what you, as head of the Reichsbank, required of the employees whom you were taking over in Austria; and I quote:

“Now I shall ask you to rise. (The audience rises.) Today we
pledge allegiance to the great Reichsbank family, to the great
German community; we pledge allegiance to our newly arisen,
powerful Greater German Reich, and we sum up all these
sentiments in the allegiance to the man who has brought about
all this transformation. I ask you to raise your hands and to
repeat after me:

“I swear that I will be faithful and obedient to the Führer of
the German Reich and the German people, Adolf Hitler, and will
perform my duties conscientiously and selflessly. (The audience
takes the pledge with uplifted hands.)

“You have taken this pledge. A bad fellow he who breaks it. To
our Führer a triple ‘Sieg Heil’.”

Is that a correct representation of what took place?

SCHACHT: The oath is the prescribed civil service oath and it is quite in accordance with what I said here yesterday, that the oath is made to the head of the state just as I have stated before too: “We stand united before the German people”—I do not know exactly what the German expression is. I hear your English version here. That oath is exactly the same.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I have referred to Document EC-297, Exhibit USA-632, in the course of this. That is the exhibit I have been using.

So you say that was to an impersonal head of state and not to Adolf Hitler?

SCHACHT: Yes. One obviously cannot take an oath to an idea. Therefore, one has to use a person. But I said yesterday that I did not take an oath to Herr Ebert or to Herr Hindenburg or to the Kaiser, but to the head of State as representative of the people.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You told your employees that all of the sentiments of this oath were summed up in the allegiance to the man, did you not?

SCHACHT: No.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Is that not what you said?

SCHACHT: No, that is not correct. If you read it again, it does not say to the man but to the leader as the head of State.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, no matter what you took the oath to...

SCHACHT: [_Interposing._] Excuse me. There is a very great difference.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, we will get to that. Whatever you took the oath to, you were breaking it at the very time, were you not?

SCHACHT: No. I never broke the oath to this man as representative of the German people, but I broke my oath when I found out that that man was a criminal.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When you plotted to cause his death?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you want to explain to the Tribunal how you could cause the death of Adolf Hitler without also causing the death of the head of the German State?

SCHACHT: There is no difference because unfortunately that man was the head of the German nation.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You say you never broke the oath?

SCHACHT: I do not know what you want to express by that. Certainly I did not keep the oath which I took to Hitler because Hitler unfortunately was a criminal, a perjurer, and there was no true head of State. I do not know what you mean by “breaking the oath,” but I did not keep my oath to him and I am proud of it.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So you were administering to your employees an oath which you at that moment were breaking and intended to break?

SCHACHT: Again you confuse different periods of time, Mr. Justice. That was in March 1938 when as you have heard me say before, I still was in doubt, and therefore it was not clear to me yet what kind of a man Hitler was. Only when in the course of 1938 I observed that Hitler was possibly walking into a war, did I break the oath.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When did you find him walking into a war?

SCHACHT: In the course of 1938 when, judging from the events, I gradually became convinced that Hitler might steer into a war, that is to say, intentionally. Then only did I break my oath.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you stated yesterday that you started to sabotage the government in 1936 and 1937.

SCHACHT: Yes, because I did not want excessive armament.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And we find you administering an oath to the employees to be faithful and obedient.

Now, I ask you if you did not make this statement in interrogation:

“Question: ‘But you make this statement at the end of the oath,
after everybody has raised his hand and made his oath. Did you
say the following, “You have taken this pledge. A bad fellow he
who breaks it”?’

“Answer: ‘Yes, I agree to that and I must say that I myself
broke it.’

“Question: ‘Do you also say that at the time that you urged this
upon the audience, that you already were breaking it?’

“Answer: ‘I am sorry to say that within my soul I felt very
shaken in my loyalty already at that time, but I hoped that
things would turn out well at the end.’”

SCHACHT: I am glad that you quote this because it confirms exactly what I have just said; that I was in a state of doubt and that I still had hope that everything would come out all right; that is to say, that Hitler would develop in the right direction. So it confirms exactly what I have just said.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I am sure we want to be helpful to each other, Dr. Schacht.

SCHACHT: I am convinced that both of us are trying to find the truth, Mr. Justice.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you remained in the Reichsbank after this Anschluss, of course?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you remained there until later—until January 1939, if that is the date?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, after this Anschluss, the mefo bills which had been issued began to become due, did they not, in 1938 and 1939?

SCHACHT: No, the maturity date of the first mefo bills must have been at the earliest in the spring of 1939. They had all been issued for 5 years and I assume that the first mefo bills were issued in the spring of 1934, so that the first mefo bills became due in the spring of 1939.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, this is the question and the answer. Correct me if I am wrong.

“Question: ‘Well, did you in the Reichsbank utilize funds which
were available? Let me put it this way: As these mefo bills
became due, what did you do about them?’

“Answer: ‘I asked the Minister of Finance whether he could repay
them, because after 5 years he had to repay them, some in 1938
or 1939, I think. The first mefo bills would have become due for
repayment and of course he said, “I cannot.”’”

You had that conversation with the Finance Minister while you were still President of the Reichsbank?

SCHACHT: Mr. Justice, I said that throughout our financial dealings we became somewhat worried as to whether we would get our bills paid back or not. I have already explained to the Tribunal that in the second half of 1938 the Finance Minister got into difficulties and he came to me in order again to borrow money. Thereupon I said to him, “Listen, in what kind of a situation are you anyway for you will soon have to repay the first mefo bills to us. Are you not prepared for that?” And now it turned out, that was in the fall of 1938, that the Reich Finance Minister had done nothing whatever to fulfill his obligation to meet payment of the mefo bills; and that, of course, in the fall of 1938, made for exceedingly strained relations with the Reich Finance Minister, that is, between the Reichsbank and the Reich Finance Minister.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, taxes did not yield any sufficient revenue to discharge those bills, did they?

SCHACHT: Yes; I explained already yesterday that the risk which was taken in the mefo bills, which I have admitted from the very beginning, was not really a risk if a reasonable financial policy were followed; that is, if from 1938 on, further armament had not continued and additional foolish expenditures not been made, but if instead, the money accruing from taxes and bonds had been used for meeting the payment of the mefo bills.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: All I am asking you at the present moment, Dr. Schacht, is whether these bills could not have been paid out of the revenue from taxes.

SCHACHT: Surely. Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: They could have?

SCHACHT: Of course, but that was the surprising thing, they were not repaid; the money was used to continue rearming. May I add something in order to give you further information?

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: No, I am really not concerned with the financing; I am merely concerned with what kind of a mess you were in at the time you resigned.

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The mefo bills were due and could not be paid?

SCHACHT: Shortly.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: They were shortly to mature?

SCHACHT: Yes, but they could be paid. That is a mistake if you say that they could not be paid.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, they could not be paid out of the current year’s taxes, could they?

SCHACHT: Yes, indeed. You are not interested and do not want me to tell you, but I am quite ready to explain it.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you have explained it pretty well to us.

SCHACHT: You have just told me you were not interested.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Your subscriptions to the Fourth Reich Loan of 1938 had produced unsatisfactory results, had they not?

SCHACHT: They were hardly pleasing. The capital market was not good.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you have reported on the loan that there had been a shortage in the public subscription? And the result had been unsatisfactory?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, did you not make this answer to the interrogator’s question:

“Question: ‘But I am asking you whether during that period from
1 April 1938 to January 1939 you did not continue to finance
armaments?’

“Answer: ‘Sir, otherwise these mefo bills had to be refunded by
the Reich, which they could not be, because the Reich had no
money to do it; and I could not procure any money for refunding
because that would have had to come from taxes or loans. So I
had to continue to carry these mefo bills and that, of course, I
did.’”

Did you give that answer?

SCHACHT: Yes, that was quite in order—kindly let me speak, would you not—because the Finance Minister did not make his funds available for the repayment of the mefo bills, but instead gave them for armaments. If he had used these funds to pay the mefo bills, everything would have been all right.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you carried the mefo bills which let him use current revenues to continue the plans of rearmament after 1938, did you not?

SCHACHT: Mr. Justice, this was the situation. A large part of the mefo bills was already on the financial and capital market. Now, when that market was too heavily burdened by the government, then the people brought in the mefo bills to the Reichsbank, for the Reichsbank had promised to accept them. That, precisely, was the great obstruction to my policy. The Reich Finance Minister financed the armament instead of honoring the mefo bills as he had promised.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, it was under those circumstances that you took a position which would result in your retirement from the Reichsbank?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now we come to Czechoslovakia. Did you favor the policy of acquiring the Sudetenland by threat of resort to arms?

SCHACHT: Not at all.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think you characterized the manner in which the Sudetenland was acquired as wrong and reprehensible.

SCHACHT: I do not know when I could have done that. I said that the Allies, by their policy, gave the Sudetenland to Hitler, whereas I always had expected only that the Sudeten Germans would be given autonomy.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then you approved of Hitler’s policy in handling the Sudetenland situation? Is that what you want to be understood as saying?

SCHACHT: I never knew that Hitler, beyond autonomy, demanded anything else.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Your only criticism of the Czechoslovakian situation relates to the Allies, as I understand you?

SCHACHT: Well, it also applies to the Czechs, maybe to the Germans too; for goodness sake, I do not want to play the judge here.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, now on 16 October 1945, in Exhibit USA-636, Document 3728-PS, I ask if you did not make these replies to questions:

“Question: ‘Now, I am coming back to the march against
Czechoslovakia which resulted in the appeasement policy, Munich,
and the cession of the Sudetenland to the Reich.’

“Answer: ‘Yes.’

“Question: ‘Did you at that time favor the policy of acquiring
the Sudetenland?’

“Answer: ‘No.’

“Question: ‘Did you favor at that time the policy of threatening
or menacing the Czechs by force of arms so as to acquire the
Sudetenland?’

“Answer: ‘No, certainly not.’

“Question: ‘Then I ask you, did it strike you at that time, did
it come to your consciousness, that the means which Hitler was
using for threatening the Czechs was the Wehrmacht and the
armament industry?’

“Answer: ‘He could not have done it without the Wehrmacht.’”

Did you give those answers?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Continuing:

“Question: ‘Did you consider the manner in which he handled the
Sudeten question wrong or reprehensible?’

“Answer: ‘Yes.’

“Question: ‘You did?’

“Answer: ‘Yes, Sir.’

“Question: ‘And did you have a feeling at that time, looking
back on the events that had proceeded and in your own
participation in them, that this army which he was using as a
threat against Czechoslovakia was at least in part an army of
your own creation? Did that ever strike you?’

“Answer: ‘I cannot deny that, Sir.’”

SCHACHT: Certainly not.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But here again, you turned in to help Hitler, once he had been successful with it, did you not?

SCHACHT: How can you say such a thing? I certainly did not know that Hitler would use the army in order to threaten other nations.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: After he had done it, you turned in and took over the Czech bank, did you not?

SCHACHT: Of course.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes. You followed to clean up economically just so far as Hitler got the territory, did you not?

SCHACHT: But I beg your pardon. He did not take it with violence at all. The Allies presented him with the country. The whole thing was settled peacefully.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, we have your testimony on the part the Wehrmacht played in it and what part you played in the Wehrmacht.

SCHACHT: Yes, I have never denied that.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: No. What I mean is this, referring to your interrogation of 17 October (Exhibit US-616):

“Question: ‘Now, after the Sudetenland was taken over by the
Munich agreement, did you, as the President of the Reichsbank,
do anything about the Sudeten territory?’

“Answer: ‘I think we took over the affiliations of the Czech
Bank of Issue.’

“Question: ‘And you also arranged for the currency conversion,
did you not?’

“Answer: ‘Yes.’”

That is what you did after this wrong and reprehensible act had been committed by Hitler, did you not?

SCHACHT: It is no “wrong and reprehensible” act “committed” by Hitler, but Hitler received the Sudeten German territory by way of treaty and, of course, the currency and the institute which directed financing had to be amalgamated with this field in Germany. There can be no talk of injustice. I cannot believe that the Allies have put their signature to a piece of injustice.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So you think that everything up to Munich was all right?

SCHACHT: No. I am certainly of a different opinion. There was much injustice.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were you in this Court when Göring testified to his threat to bomb Prague—“the beautiful city of Prague”?

SCHACHT: Thanks to your invitation, I was here.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes. I suppose you approved that use of the force which you had created in the Wehrmacht?

SCHACHT: Disapproved; disapproved under all circumstances.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You did not think that was right dealing, then?

SCHACHT: No, no, that was an atrocious thing.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, we have found something we agree on, Doctor. You knew of the invasion of Poland?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You regarded it as an unqualified act of aggression on Hitler’s part, did you not?

SCHACHT: Absolutely.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The same was true of the invasion of Luxembourg, was it not?

SCHACHT: Absolutely.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And of Holland?

SCHACHT: Absolutely.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And of Denmark?

SCHACHT: Absolutely.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And of Norway?

SCHACHT: Absolutely.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And of Yugoslavia?

SCHACHT: Absolutely.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And of Russia?

SCHACHT: Absolutely, sir; and you have left out Norway and Belgium.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes; well, I got to the end of my paper. The entire course was a course of aggression?

SCHACHT: Absolutely to be condemned.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the success of that aggression at every step was due to the Wehrmacht which you had so much to do with creating?

SCHACHT: Unfortunately.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I intend to take up another subject and perhaps it would be ... it is almost recess time.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.

[_A recess was taken._]

MARSHAL (Colonel Charles W. Mays): If it pleases the Tribunal, the report is made that Defendant Von Neurath is absent.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Dr. Schacht, in your direct testimony you made reference to a film, which was taken and exhibited in Germany for propaganda purposes, of your demeanor on the occasion of Hitler’s return after the fall of France.

SCHACHT: May I correct that? Not I, but my counsel, spoke of this film; and it was not mentioned that it was used for propaganda purposes. My counsel merely said that it had been run in a newsreel, so it probably was shown for about one week.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will ask to exhibit that film to the Tribunal. It is a very brief film, and the movement in it is very rapid. There is very little of translation involved in it, but the speed of it is such that for myself I had to see it twice in order to really see what it is.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to put it on now?

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I would like to put it on now. It will take only a moment, and Dr. Schacht should be placed where he can see it for I want to ask him some questions and [_Turning to the defendant_] particularly I may ask you to identify the persons in it.

I will ask, if I may, to have it shown twice, so that after all has been seen you can once more see it.

THE PRESIDENT: Certainly.

[_Moving pictures were then shown._]

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think that I, in mentioning this exhibit which I wish to offer in evidence, spoke of it as a “propaganda film.” That was not the language of Dr. Dix. Dr. Dix described it as a “weekly newsreel” and as a “weekly film.”

[_Turning to the defendant._] While our memory is fresh about that, will you tell the Court as many of the defendants as you recognized present in that picture?

SCHACHT: In glancing at it quickly I could not see exactly who was there. However, I should assume that almost all were present—I say that from memory, not from the film—either in Hitler’s retinue or among those who received him.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: While you were still President of the Reichsbank and after the action in taking over the Czechoslovakian Bank you made a speech, did you not, on 29 November 1938?

SCHACHT: Yes.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It is Document EC-611, Exhibit USA-622. I am advised that the film became Exhibit USA-835, and before I pass from it I would like to offer the statement as to the personality of Hermann Göring, which is Document 3936-PS, as Exhibit USA-836.

[_Turning to the defendant._] In this speech of 29 November 1938, Dr. Schacht, if I am correctly informed—and by the way, it was a public speech was it not?

SCHACHT: Inasmuch as it was made before the German Academy. It was entirely public, and if it passed the censorship it certainly was also mentioned in the papers. It was public; anyone could hear it.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You used this language, did you not?:

“It is possible that no bank of issue in peace times has carried
on such a daring credit policy as has the Reichsbank since the
seizure of power by National Socialism. With the aid of this
credit policy, however, Germany has created an armament second
to none, and this armament in turn has made possible our
political successes.” (Document EC-611)

Is that correct?

SCHACHT: That is absolutely correct, and—would you please mind letting me talk in the future? That is correct and I was very much surprised that it was necessary to do this in order to create justice in the world.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The taking over of Czechoslovakia representing your idea of justice?

SCHACHT: I have already told you that Germany did not “take over Czechoslovakia,” but that it was indeed presented to Germany by the Allies on a silver platter.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Are you now saying that that was an act of justice, or are you condemning it? I cannot get your position, Doctor. Just tell us, were you for it? Are you today for it, or against it?

SCHACHT: Against what? Will you please tell me against what and for what?

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Against the taking over of the Sudetenland by the method by which it was done.

SCHACHT: I cannot answer your question for the reason that, as I said, it was no “taking over,” but was a present. If someone gives me a present, such as this, I accept it gratefully.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Even though it does not belong to them to give?

SCHACHT: Well, that I must naturally leave up to the donor.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And although it was taken at the point of a gun, you still would accept the gift?