Chapter III: Front Matter (3)

M. DEBENEST: I am going to put to you again the question which I put to you a few minutes ago. Did you take part in arresting, interning, and deporting to concentration camps Dutch citizens, and under what conditions?

SEYSS-INQUART: Bringing anybody into and keeping him in a concentration camp was exclusively a matter for the Police. I do not recall a single instance in which I requested the Police to put any Dutchman into a German concentration camp. It may have happened that I ordered the German Police to take Dutchmen to Hertogenbosch or Amersfoort. Especially at the time when the Netherlands courts were very lenient with black-market operators and slaughterers who supplied the black market, I did demand their internment in a concentration camp for 2 or 3 months.

However, if you have specific cases in mind, please mention them and you may be assured that I will tell you everything exactly as I remember it.

M. DEBENEST: No, your answer is sufficient.

Did you participate in the seizure of hostages and in their execution?

SEYSS-INQUART: I stated yesterday that I recall only one actual hostage case, which took place in 1942, and I told you what I had to do with it. The so-called shooting of hostages, beginning with July 1944, was not actually shooting of hostages, but rather executions carried out by the Police on the basis of a Führer decree.

I myself never ordered a single shooting. But I would like to repeat: If, for instance, I called the attention of the Police to the fact that in any certain locality of the Netherlands an illegal resistance movement was causing much trouble, and gave the Police instructions to investigate the case, it was perfectly obvious to me that the leaders of the resistance movement could be arrested by the Police who, on the basis of the Führer decree, would shoot them.

But I must repeat: I had to meet my responsibility, even in the face of a difficult situation whereby those who were guilty—that is, legally guilty and not morally, because morally I probably would have acted the same way as they did—those who were guilty were not put before a court.

M. DEBENEST: As far as the facts which you mentioned yesterday are concerned, this deals with hostages who were shot following an attempt upon the railroad at Rotterdam?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: Who selected those hostages?

SEYSS-INQUART: Hostages were selected by the Security Police, and the Higher SS and Police Leader submitted this list to me. As I testified yesterday, I asked why he selected the people that he did and he explained that to me. Then, in checking the matter over, I crossed off the names of fathers who had several children. I returned the list to the Higher SS and Police Leader and asked him to take my attitude into consideration in the execution of this decree.

Therefore, through my direct intervention, I saved fathers of several children from being shot.

M. DEBENEST: How many hostages were selected in this manner?

SEYSS-INQUART: I cannot recall that today, perhaps 12 or 15. Out of that number, 5 remained. That was the number finally arrived at after cutting down on the original figure of 50 or 25.

M. DEBENEST: I am going to have you shown a document concerning the seizure of these hostages. It is Document F-886, which becomes RF-1527. This is a statement made by General Christiansen, or rather, it is a copy of a statement made by General Christiansen, which was taken from an affidavit by the head of the Dutch Delegation. Will you please look at the fourth paragraph before the end of the first statement?

THE PRESIDENT: Have you got the original?

M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I just said that this was only the copy of a statement which comes from an affidavit of the head of the Dutch Delegation. If the Tribunal desires, we can certainly have the original submitted as soon as we have received it.

THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, there is no certificate at all identifying the copy, is there?

M. DEBENEST: I thought, Mr. President, that an affidavit of the representative of the Dutch Delegation existed in Nuremberg. On the original—I beg your pardon; it was not reproduced, but the original does contain the affidavit.

THE PRESIDENT: What are you going to prove by this affidavit? About the hostages?

M. DEBENEST: Yes, Mr. President. It says that the defendant himself selected these hostages.

THE PRESIDENT: In what proceedings was the affidavit made?

M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, it was during the proceedings which were taken against General Christiansen in the Netherlands.

THE PRESIDENT: How do you say it is admissible under the Charter?

M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I believe that we have already submitted documents of this nature—that is, copies—to the Tribunal, copies which have been certified as being copies of an original which is being kept in the country where it originated.

THE PRESIDENT: If the original from which the copy was taken were a document which is admissible under the Charter, that would probably be so, if there were an authentic certificate saying it was a true copy of a document which is admissible under the Charter. But is this document admissible under the Charter?

M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I believe that it is admissible because it is purely and simply an affidavit. It is an affidavit which has been legally received in the Netherlands.

THE PRESIDENT: And you haven’t got a German edition of it?

M. DEBENEST: Yes, Mr. President, this document has been translated into German. I have had it translated into German.

THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, this appears to be a document which is in Dutch, and General Christiansen, who gave the evidence, was a German, was he not?

M. DEBENEST: No, Mr. President, the original affidavit is in Dutch.

THE PRESIDENT: The original is in Dutch, is it?

M. DEBENEST: The original is in Dutch, yes. That is according to the information that I have. Yes, the original is in the Dutch language.

THE PRESIDENT: And what was the affidavit given in, what proceeding?

M. DEBENEST: In Dutch, with interpreters.

THE PRESIDENT: I mean what proceeding, before what court?

M. DEBENEST: I suppose before a Dutch Military Tribunal. Yes, before a Dutch Military Tribunal.

M. CHARLES DUBOST (Deputy Chief Prosecutor for the French Republic): May it please the Tribunal...

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, M. Dubost.

M. DUBOST: This document is an excerpt from criminal proceedings in the Netherlands taken against General Christiansen upon the request of the Dutch Government. The Minister of Justice of the Netherlands has let us have an extract of the minutes which were taken in the Netherlands in legal form during the proceedings which were carried on against General Christiansen. The text was, therefore, made in the Dutch language.

THE PRESIDENT: This deposition, this affidavit is in Dutch. Now, General Christiansen, is he a Dutchman?

M. DUBOST: General Christiansen is a German.

THE PRESIDENT: If he is a German why does he give his evidence in Dutch? If he did not give it in Dutch, why isn’t the German copy here? You see, we have a certificate here from a colonel, who is said to represent the Government of the Netherlands, that this document is a true copy of General Christiansen’s evidence. Well, the document which we have here is in Dutch, and if General Christiansen gave his evidence in German, then it can’t be a true copy and it is subject to the translation in Dutch. What do you say to that?

M. DUBOST: The deposition made by General Christiansen was received through an interpreter in conformity with Dutch procedure and was transcribed in Dutch. It is not possible for a Dutch Tribunal to receive minutes in a foreign language. The minutes are taken in the Dutch language.

THE PRESIDENT: I see.

DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, may I just say a few words in this connection, please? I know, for I am in contact with the defense counsel for General Christiansen, that there was a court-martial proceeding on the part of the English instituted against him. I have misgivings about this document, since it is not confirmed, and we cannot judge whether the interpreter who interpreted from German into Dutch was a suitable and adequate interpreter; and also, since in this manner I do not have the opportunity, as defense counsel, to cross-examine General Christiansen. It seems to me that through the mere submission of this document the rights of the Defense have been greatly infringed upon.

M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I have just been informed that General Christiansen is right now imprisoned at Arnhem by the Dutch authorities.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Mr. Debenest, the Tribunal will admit the document if you get a certificate from the court who tried General Christiansen. But the only certificate you have at present that this is a true copy is from a Colonel Van—some name that I can’t pronounce. There is nothing to show, except his statement, that he is an official on behalf of the Dutch Government. We don’t know who he is.

M. DEBENEST: Certainly, Mr. President, but we will get the original for the Tribunal later on.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, you will submit an original later on.

M. DEBENEST: Van—is the accredited representative of the Dutch Government with the French Delegation.

DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I have only a French translation in front of me which reads as follows:

“Christiansen is not here as a witness, but rather as a
defendant, and he was interrogated as such, and he is not bound
by oath to tell the truth. He can say whatever he pleases
without being held responsible for what he says.”

For that reason alone, I believe the document is to be refused.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Steinbauer, the reason why the Tribunal is prepared to admit the document, when it is certain that it has got the document, is that Article 21 provides that reports, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various Allied countries for the investigation of war crimes and the reports and findings of military or other tribunals of any of the United Nations, shall be taken judicial notice of. It is for that reason that the document is, in the opinion of the Tribunal, admissible when the authentic document is before it.

[_Turning to M. Debenest._] Now, you undertake then to produce a properly certified copy of the document.

M. DEBENEST: Certainly, Mr. President.

SEYSS-INQUART: May I please comment on this document?

M. DEBENEST: Will you kindly wait until I read to you the passage which I wish to submit to you.

It is on Page 4 of the French text, the fourth paragraph before the end of the first statement, the second paragraph of the page:

“I think that I can recall that already upon that occasion
Seyss-Inquart said that five hostages would be shot. I didn’t
know any one among these hostages. I did not select these five
men, and I had nothing whatsoever to do with their execution. It
was a case of a purely political nature in which I became
involved in my capacity as commander.”

Now you may give us your attitude if you choose to do so.

SEYSS-INQUART: The picture which is given here by General Christiansen as a defendant, not as a witness, completely coincides with the picture that I gave. In the beginning of this record General Christiansen says that Field Marshal Von Rundstedt and the OKW gave him the order through his chief of staff to take the hostages, and he says further that through his legal department he had issued a proclamation that the hostages would answer with their lives if further sabotage acts should take place. He then says that they did take place, and he contacted the Commander, West or the OKW and received the answer that the hostages were to be used. Then he goes on to relate that he advised me of this order, indicating that the original ruling with regard to the hostages still applied, and so I said that 5 of them were to be executed. That is what I have always maintained, and I also said that 25 were to have been killed and that I negotiated for the lives of the remaining 20.

The report, therefore, is fundamentally correct and agrees with what I have said.

M. DEBENEST: But in this document no mention is made of 25 hostages. We are only dealing with the fact here it was you who chose these 5 hostages.

Take the following page of the statement of 5 March 1946. General Christiansen declares:

“I remember now that Lieutenant Colonel Kluter also took part in
this conference. There were thus seven participants in all. I
therefore transmitted the order to use hostages and
Seyss-Inquart said immediately that five men were to be
apprehended. You are asking why it was as simple as all that.
Obviously Seyss-Inquart had authority to do this.”

It was therefore you, in fact, who designated and chose these hostages?

SEYSS-INQUART: The repetition of these words in no wise changes the fact that 25 hostages were demanded, as the witnesses will confirm to you tomorrow, and that I intervened so that only 5 were demanded, and that altogether the entire matter was in the hands of the Army and the Higher SS and Police Leader; the proclamations were issued in the names of both of them. As Reich Commissioner I assumed the right to reduce the number of hostages as much as possible. The final figure was determined by the Commander and the Higher SS and Police Leader.

THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, did you read the last paragraph in the affidavit, Page 4 at the bottom?

M. DEBENEST: That is right, Mr. President, I did not read it. I am going to read it.

“I will ask you to note that at this conference with
Seyss-Inquart he expressly reserved the right to appoint
hostages.”

SEYSS-INQUART: I can say nothing more than what I have already said. The selection of hostages was probably made by the Higher SS and Police Leader according to directives which he had received from the Armed Forces commander, or, rather, from his superiors. I myself asked to be shown this list, for I, as Reich Commissioner, was interested in knowing who was to be selected, and I tried to exert influence to the effect, as I have already said, that the fathers of many children were crossed off this list.

Furthermore, I do not wish to be polemic in face of the subjective descriptions of General Christiansen. We got along very well together in our work. The Court will decide whether I am not telling the truth or whether he is mistaken in this case.

M. DEBENEST: That is exactly what I was thinking. You therefore do contend that this is the only case in which you intervened as far as the seizure and execution of hostages is concerned?

SEYSS-INQUART: I believe so, yes.

M. DEBENEST: Did you know about the execution of hostages following the assassination attempt made on Rauter?

SEYSS-INQUART: I stated the extent of my information yesterday. I did not know the exact figure. It was known to me, however, that shootings were taking place, the shooting of those men who, on the basis of their demeanor and actions, were to be shot under the decree of the Führer by the Security Police. The actual figure was made known to me later.

M. DEBENEST: Consequently, you did not intervene in this question of the shooting of hostages at all?

SEYSS-INQUART: No, I cannot say that, for I discussed at length with the deputy of the Higher SS and Police Leader what should be done in such a case—for after all it was a very grave matter—and whether he should carry out these executions; I said yesterday that I agreed. I declared yesterday that I could not contradict him in his decision actually to carry out the executions at this point.

M. DEBENEST: Who was this Police Leader?

SEYSS-INQUART: Dr. Schöngarth.

M. DEBENEST: What do you think of Dr. Schöngarth?

SEYSS-INQUART: I believe that Dr. Schöngarth was not a man who was especially harsh and very eager to deal with this matter. He must certainly have found the matter unpleasant.

M. DEBENEST: But was he a man whom one could trust?

SEYSS-INQUART: I always had confidence in him.

M. DEBENEST: Very well. In that case, I am going to have a document shown to you, Document F-879, which I submit under Number RF-1528.

I wish to inform the Tribunal that once again this is a copy of proceedings which was received at Amsterdam by the War Crimes agency. It is signed by people who were questioned, and it also comes with an affidavit as in the preceding case. Here again, if the Tribunal wishes it, I shall obtain the original for the Tribunal later on.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you will submit the original as before.

M. DEBENEST: Certainly, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Or else get it from somebody in the Government.

M. DEBENEST: Very well, Mr. President.

Defendant, will you kindly look at Dr. Schöngärth’s statement on Page 5 of the French document; it is the third statement, the fifth paragraph. Have you found it?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, I have.

M. DEBENEST: This is what Dr. Schöngarth says:

“After the investigation, I personally went to see Dr.
Seyss-Inquart, the Reich Commissioner in Holland, with whom I
discussed the matter. Seyss-Inquart then gave me the order to
take increased measures of reprisal by executing 200 prisoners,
who were condemned to death, at the place where the
assassination attempt had been made.

“This execution was aimed at intimidating the population. It was
announced by a public notice that a large number of persons
would be executed because of this assassination attempt.”

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: Well?

SEYSS-INQUART: In any event, it is confirmed that we are concerned here with the shooting of Dutchmen who, as this man says, had been condemned to death for having participated in some sort of sabotage or other matter; they were, in line with the Führer decree, to be shot anyhow. That is the first and most important point. The question is whether the figure of 200 was mentioned; and the question further is whether I demanded that number. I still maintain what I have already said in reply to the testimony of former collaborators; but I also maintain my own declaration to the effect that I never even would have had the power to give an order like that to Dr. Schöngarth. He was not at all my subordinate in such things. I certainly did state that we must act with severity in this case. That is quite right. The figure of 200—I even believe it was 230—only came to my knowledge later. The public notice which he mentions here is signed by Dr. Schöngarth.

M. DEBENEST: You did not say “severe measures”; you said “stricter measures of reprisal.” It’s not quite the same thing.

SEYSS-INQUART: I did not understand the question.

M. DEBENEST: I repeat: You did not say “severe measures,” but “stricter measures of reprisal.”

SEYSS-INQUART: The severe measures which were to be taken would, of course, serve to intimidate. But we were not concerned with reprisals; that is, the shooting of people whom otherwise one would have had no reason to shoot.

M. DEBENEST: But it seems to me that this document is extremely clear. It deals with “measures of reprisal” following the assassination attempt against Rauter.

SEYSS-INQUART: Which were to be carried through in such a way that Dutchmen were executed who would have been executed in any event; for he confirms here that the people had been condemned to death.

M. DEBENEST: Will you kindly repeat the explanation. I did not get the translation.

SEYSS-INQUART: Here we were concerned with the shooting of men who would have been shot in any event, for it says specifically here that they had already been sentenced to death, as it says in the next paragraph.

THE PRESIDENT: I already wrote it down 5 minutes ago. You have said it already. He has said it already. The document speaks for itself, M. Debenest.

M. DEBENEST: Very well, Mr. President.

You stated yesterday as well that no hostage had been shot at the hostage camp of Michelsgestel.

SEYSS-INQUART: That is unknown to me.

M. DEBENEST: Nevertheless, you stated that yesterday. Or are you still claiming that none had been shot at that time?

THE PRESIDENT: Will the defendant answer, please? Don’t just nod your head. It does not come through the sound system.

SEYSS-INQUART: I wanted to say only that I know of no case. Perhaps on some occasion such a case did occur, but I do not remember.

M. DEBENEST: Nevertheless, you are not denying that some may have been shot?

SEYSS-INQUART: There might have been reasons which necessitated such a shooting. But I do not recall a single case.

M. DEBENEST: The hostages who were executed in this manner, were they all people who had been sentenced to death?

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not know because I do not know whether anyone was shot at all.

M. DEBENEST: In the case of the execution of hostages at Rotterdam, was not one of the hostages arrested the day before the execution, and shot the very next day?

SEYSS-INQUART: I am not informed on that point. I can see from this document that we are talking about hostages from Michelsgestel. I do not recall that hostages were taken from this camp. But in the circumstances it may have been possible, for this was an actual hostage case.

M. DEBENEST: No. I am not asking you whether hostages were taken from the camp of Michelsgestel. I am asking you, in the case of the execution of the hostages of Rotterdam, whether one was not arrested on the eve of the execution and shot the next day?

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not know.

M. DEBENEST: I will give you the name. Maybe that will help you remember the case: Baron Schimmelpennink.

SEYSS-INQUART: As far as I recall Baron Schimmelpennink came from Zeeland. But I do not know any more than that.

M. DEBENEST: You do not know under what conditions he was arrested, and why?

SEYSS-INQUART: No; I know only that a Baron Schimmelpennink was among those five hostages who were shot.

M. DEBENEST: You therefore do admit that numerous executions followed the setting up of the summary justice courts in the Netherlands by you?

SEYSS-INQUART: No. That is certainly not the case. For these shootings, from the middle of 1944 onward, cannot be traced to my directives and my summary justice courts, but rather to a direct decree of the Führer.

M. DEBENEST: You therefore claim that there was not a single case of execution as a result of your order of 1 May 1943?

SEYSS-INQUART: The executions did not come about on the basis of summary courts which I had provided for in this decree against violations of this decree. It is possible that the Higher SS and Police Leader used this decree as the basis for his decisions.

M. DEBENEST: But you are still contending that you had no power over this Police Leader?

SEYSS-INQUART: I did not have the power to command him, but we certainly worked together in a close understanding.

M. DEBENEST: He therefore consulted you about all reprisal measures?

SEYSS-INQUART: No. How do you mean?

M. DEBENEST: Were not the reprisal measures which were taken or which were announced by him applied with your agreement?

SEYSS-INQUART: The reprisal measures and his announcements were made in his domain. In many cases I myself did not learn of these announcements at all, or not until afterward. There was no directive which I gave for these measures. I again and again refer to the fact that this resulted from the Führer decree given by Himmler to the Police.

M. DEBENEST: Very well. Were you in favor of these measures of reprisal?

SEYSS-INQUART: I fully approved of action being taken against members of the resistance movement who committed sabotage and other acts. There were no other means for taking steps except arrest by the Police, passing of judgment on the part of the Higher SS and Police Leader, and shooting on the part of the Police. I could not oppose these measures. You may interpret that as agreement, if you want to. I would have preferred it if courts had given the judgment.

M. DEBENEST: Yes, certainly.

I am going to have you shown Document F-860, which is a letter which I am submitting under Number RF-1529. This is a letter written by you, dated 30 November 1942 and addressed to Dr. Lammers. I will pass over the first part.

I am sorry. I forgot to tell the Tribunal that the originals are not here; they are just photostat copies. But I have in my possession an affidavit which I shall submit to the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: It is all right, M. Debenest. You need not bother to give us an affidavit. We have the photostat copy.

M. DEBENEST: I will pass over the first two pages of the French copy, and will pass on to the second paragraph.

“The drafting of the special police law (Polizeistandrecht) was
effected in accordance with the views expressed in a letter of
the Reichsführer SS. I believe that I have conformed with all
the wishes which are contained in it, only I would not like to
appoint the Higher SS and Police Leader as court administrator,
for, from the point of view of the Dutch, this would mean a
curtailment of the authority of the Reich Commissioner,
particularly in view of the fact that the Reich Commissioner is
designated in the Führer decree as the guardian of the interests
of the Reich. However, in the decree I have assigned to the
Higher SS and Police Leader all the powers which a court
administrator needs. I believe that this special police law may
be a useful instrument and to a certain extent an example for
all further regulations.”

You did, therefore, have authority over the Police Leader?

SEYSS-INQUART: I had the authority over the special police court, but not over the Higher SS and Police Leader. I remained the top court administrator, even for the police court in an emergency state. All the same I could not give executive orders to the Police. Anyway, this police law existed in the Netherlands for two weeks at the most.

M. DEBENEST: It is nevertheless certain that we here find special tribunals and that you entrusted them to the Police Leader.

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, that is correct, but only within the scope of police courts in an emergency state, and what the police courts did at that time I assume responsibility for. This was on occasion of the general strike in May 1943.

M. DEBENEST: Well, we quite agree then. You did entrust these emergency courts to the Police.

Very well, I will now have you shown Document 3430-PS. This document is a collection of all the speeches which you made during the occupation of the Netherlands. Will you please take...

THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, is that the only reference you are making to this Document Number 860?

M. DEBENEST: Yes, Mr. President, I am only concerned with the second part. The first part concerns the Police.

THE PRESIDENT: Don’t you think it is imposing a very heavy burden on the Translation Department? There are 18 pages of it.

M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I quite agree with you. I intended to use this document for the police organization, which is in the first part. But I did not think it was necessary to do so right now because I wished to save time.

THE PRESIDENT: I only mean this: If you are only going to use a small part of the document it does not seem necessary to make the Translation Department, who have a very great deal of work to do, translate 18 pages of it.

Here’s another one—F-803, which has got many more than 18 pages in it, and of which very little use has been made. But go on.

M. DEBENEST: I know, Mr. President. I did not use more of it because the Tribunal considered that it dealt with details which it did not consider important. That is the only reason.

THE PRESIDENT: You have passages on each of these 18 pages? I am very much surprised.

M. DEBENEST: Certainly not, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Go on, anyway.

M. DEBENEST: Very well, we will now pass to another subject.

When you arrived in Holland, didn’t that country possess very considerable stocks of foodstuffs and of raw materials?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, a great many supplies were on hand. An extraordinary amount.

M. DEBENEST: Were not important requisitions made during the first years of the occupation?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, in accordance with a decree within the scope of the Four Year Plan all supplies were requisitioned and a 6 months’ reserve supply was set up in the Netherlands with the obligation on the part of the Reich to supply all further needs as required.

M. DEBENEST: You therefore claim that these stocks were to be reserved for the Dutch population?

SEYSS-INQUART: Certainly.

M. DEBENEST: Certainly? Very well. Will you take the document which I have shown to you this morning, 997-PS, Pages 9 and 10.

SEYSS-INQUART: Do I have the document before me?

M. DEBENEST: Page 12 of the French text and Page 11 of the German. You write:

“The stocks of raw materials have been collected and with the
agreement of the Field Marshal have been distributed in such a
manner that a quota sufficient to keep Dutch economy running for
6 months will be left behind. Raw material quotas and food
rationing, _et cetera_, will be assigned the same way as in the
Reich. Considerable stocks of raw materials have been guaranteed
for the Reich, such as, for example, 70,000 tons of industrial
fats which represents about one-half of the amount which the
Reich still needs.”

SEYSS-INQUART: I believe that coincides with the description I have just given you.

M. DEBENEST: But I thought you said that the stocks were at the disposal of the Dutch people and not for the Reich?

SEYSS-INQUART: No, that is an error in transmission. I said that the supplies were confiscated and enough left there for only 6 months and that future needs would be supplied by the Reich in the same proportion as the Reich was supplied. But primarily these stocks were confiscated for the Reich.

M. DEBENEST: Very well, the translation did not come through. You received numerous complaints about these requests, didn’t you?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: And what measures did you take?

SEYSS-INQUART: The attention of the gentlemen who were with me, that is, Secretary General Hirschfeld and the other secretaries, was called to the fact this was a strict directive in the framework of the Four Year Plan. In some cases I may have transmitted the complaints to the Delegate for the Four Year Plan, if the stocks were taken away in what seemed to me excessive quantities.

M. DEBENEST: In addition to these requests, were there not mass purchases made by the Reich?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes...

THE PRESIDENT: Shall we adjourn now? Will you be much longer, M. Debenest?

M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, everything will depend upon the length of the answers which the defendant will make, but I think that in half an hour or three-quarters of an hour at the most I shall have finished.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, then we will adjourn.

[_The Tribunal adjourned until 12 June 1946 at 1000 hours._]

ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY-THIRD DAY
Wednesday, 12 June 1946

_Morning Session_

[_The Defendant Seyss-Inquart resumed the stand._]

MARSHAL (Colonel Charles W. Mays): May it please the Tribunal, the report is made Defendants Hess and Jodl are absent.

M. DEBENEST: Defendant, you agree that very important stocks were sent to Germany?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, that is quite true.

M. DEBENEST: Concerning another system, for pillage, used in the Netherlands, I would like to submit to you a document which indicates moreover that you were not the only one to participate in this pillage; but Göring and the OKW are involved too. This is Document F-868, which becomes Exhibit RF-1530. It concerns a teletype message which is addressed to you by the OKW and which is signed Reinecke. This teletype message is dated 5 December 1940 and begins as follows:

“Meeting at the office of the Reich Marshal on 7 October 1940.
Regulation concerning the dispatch and the taking of merchandise
from Holland by members of the Armed Forces or of the units
attached to it.

“In agreement with the Reich Marshal and the Reich Commissioner
for the occupied Netherlands territories, the regulations in
force up to now concerning the dispatch and the taking of
merchandise out of Holland are rescinded. Members of the Armed
Forces and of the units, organizations and affiliations attached
to it”—then follow the designations of these organizations—“as
well as the officials of the services employed in Holland, can,
within the means at their disposal, send home by military post
packages of a maximum weight of 1,000 grams, without any limit
on their number. If the parcels weigh more than 250 grams....”

I won’t read what follows; it deals with a question of postal rates.

“The taking along of merchandise on the occasion of furlough or
other crossing of the frontier is not subject to any
restriction.”

This regulation was drawn up with your agreement, was it not?

SEYSS-INQUART: “Agreement” is putting it a little strongly in this case. An authority for confiscation is not involved here, but rather only instructions for transport. These things had to be bought in some manner. They could not be confiscated. The Reich Marshal decreed this and I put it into force. That was the so-called “Schlepp-Erlass,” meaning that any soldier who returned from the Netherlands could bring with him as much as he could carry of any of the things he had bought. And I then gave this order for civilians in accordance with the military decree. I believe this decree was rescinded after 2 years, for the fact was constantly brought up that it, in particular, promoted the black market.

M. DEBENEST: I did not say that it concerned requisitions. Yesterday I said to you that there had been mass requisitions and you answered that this was correct. Today I tell you, and I submit this document in order to demonstrate to you, that there was also another way of pillaging the produce of the Netherlands.

SEYSS-INQUART: But previously you did mention confiscation. I only wanted to correct that point.

M. DEBENEST: I merely spoke yesterday of it. Let us go on. Will you tell me what the task was of the Delegate for the Four Year Plan?

SEYSS-INQUART: I do not recall the wording of this decree. I believe it has been read here. At all events it dealt with the organizing of the entire economic wealth within the German sphere of interests in favor of the policy carried on by Germany and during the war, in favor of the war economy, of course.

M. DEBENEST: Who ordered the liquidation of the property of the Freemasons?

SEYSS-INQUART: I must admit that I really do not know that. My attention was called to the case after the property had been confiscated. I assume that this emanated from Himmler by way of Heydrich.

M. DEBENEST: Well, I will refresh your memory, I will have handed to you Document F-865, which becomes Exhibit RF-1531. It concerns a letter which comes from you, doesn’t it? It is dated 11 March 1944. It is signed by you, isn’t it?

SEYSS-INQUART: That is absolutely correct.

M. DEBENEST: Good. You express yourself as follows in this letter:

“Dear Dr. Lammers:

“I have had the property of the Freemasons in the Netherlands
liquidated. As the liquidation took place through me, that is to
say, through a government office, unlike the liquidation in
other areas, it is for the Reich Finance Minister to decide on
the further utilization thereof.

“I have written a letter today to the Reich Finance Minister,
and I enclose a copy of it for you. I beg you to support my
suggestion.”

You, therefore, did not hear of this liquidation until after it had been undertaken, since you yourself had undertaken it, isn’t that true?

SEYSS-INQUART: I still entirely uphold my first assertion. The question was who decreed this; I understood you to ask me who was the person in the Reich who demanded this. It is a fact that I did not hear about this whole matter until a few months had passed. Then I took over this liquidation and had it carried through to the end through my offices, and then I wrote this letter. Thus the execution rested with me.

M. DEBENEST: You said just now—and I understood the translation very clearly—that you heard of it only after it had been done. You contradicted your own declaration, as I was able to note yesterday on several occasions, when the documents were submitted to you.

SEYSS-INQUART: I did not understand that. Is that a question to me?

M. DEBENEST: I am simply making a remark.

Was this liquidation of the property of the Freemasons a big undertaking?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, certainly. I should like to say that it was started by another office. The property was confiscated, then I took over this task and had it carried through by my competent offices.

M. DEBENEST: Did you make arrangements for the utilization of the funds which this liquidation produced?

SEYSS-INQUART: I made the proposal that this money be given to the Party.

M. DEBENEST: You discussed this beforehand?

SEYSS-INQUART: I wrote a letter as well. I believe the enclosure to my letter to the Finance Minister, which was mentioned just now, contains the proposal that this property be given to the Party.

M. DEBENEST: Did you not threaten to let the people of the Netherlands starve as a result of the railroad strike in September 1944?

SEYSS-INQUART: You can look upon it as a threat, but in any event I described it as very probable.

M. DEBENEST: You asked the secretary general to stop this strike?

THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, the Tribunal would like to have further investigation as to who ordered the confiscation of the Freemasons’ property.

Defendant, do you know who ordered the confiscation?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, I do. The confiscation was ordered by Heydrich and was set in motion by the Police. Then a trustee of the Party started the actual liquidation and at that stage I took it over and transmitted it to my offices.

M. DEBENEST: At what date was this liquidation ordered?

SEYSS-INQUART: In the first few months. The whole thing went very rapidly. It was only a matter of weeks.

THE PRESIDENT: Was any reason given for it?

SEYSS-INQUART: The Freemasons were declared to be enemies of the Reich according to the decree about the taking over of the property of those who were inimical to the Reich.

THE PRESIDENT: Was the order of Heydrich in writing?

SEYSS-INQUART: That I can’t say. It went to the Security Police, and the commander of the Security Police insured its execution. I assume that it was a teletype message, although this entire action might have been planned in advance.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, do you mean that you carried it out without having any order in writing about it at all?

SEYSS-INQUART: I received a report from the Security Police—it may have been in writing, or it may have been oral—that this confiscation was being carried through by the RSHA, and I took over this matter at this stage.

THE PRESIDENT: What was the amount involved by the confiscation?

SEYSS-INQUART: I believe the final amount of the liquidation was more than 8 or 9 million guilders.

THE PRESIDENT: And then I think you said that you proposed that it should be handed over to the Party.

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, I proposed that these 9 million guilders be turned over to the Party.

THE PRESIDENT: And were they?

SEYSS-INQUART: No, I received no decision. This property must have remained in the Netherlands in some form of securities, probably in treasury bonds.

THE PRESIDENT: You were the Reich Commissioner for the Netherlands, weren’t you? What happened to the money?

SEYSS-INQUART: The money was deposited in a bank account, and perhaps Dutch treasury bonds were bought. It was treated as a separate fund, and it was not used.

THE PRESIDENT: But this was all in 1940, wasn’t it?

SEYSS-INQUART: I estimate that the liquidation continued until the year 1942, and from that period on the money remained in a bank account.

THE PRESIDENT: What was the bank?

SEYSS-INQUART: That I cannot tell you, Mr. President. But there is no doubt that the Dutch have ascertained this.

THE PRESIDENT: And when you said it was confiscated in the first few months, you meant in 1940, did you?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, immediately after the invasion.

THE PRESIDENT: Go on, M. Debenest.

M. DEBENEST: Were the funds from this liquidation utilized in the same way as the money from the liquidation of Jewish property?

SEYSS-INQUART: For the most part the proceeds from the liquidation of Jewish property were transferred to the Administrative Office for Property and Pensions. The funds were not absorbed, but certain expenditures were met from them. For instance, the erection of Vught Camp was paid for from these proceeds. The funds derived from the liquidation of Jewish property amounted to perhaps 400 million guilders or slightly more. However, they were not taken over.

M. DEBENEST: How were the funds actually used? Were they used for the purpose of the German Government or for other purposes?

SEYSS-INQUART: The Jewish property, first of all, was confiscated. Then, as far as possible, it was liquidated, and we called that “Aryanization.” The proceeds of the Aryanization were pooled in the Administrative Office for Property and Pensions, but as a whole were not...

M. DEBENEST: Pardon me, but will you answer more directly without recounting to us how this liquidation was effected. I asked you about the utilization of the funds.

SEYSS-INQUART: The funds were not used at all. The 400 million guilders must have been placed on deposit in the Administrative Office for Property and Pensions of the Netherlands, partly in Dutch treasury bonds and partly in the original securities. Only relatively small amounts were used for certain purposes. I believe the largest amount was 14 million guilders which was used for the erection of Vught Camp.

I called the attention of the Reich Finance Minister...

M. DEBENEST: Excuse me. I asked you a question. Were the funds from this liquidation used for the benefit of the Reich? Yes or no?

SEYSS-INQUART: No, unless you call the erection of the Vught Camp using the proceeds for the Reich; but the funds were used because Vught Camp was to be a Jewish assembly camp.

M. DEBENEST: So you consider that the building of the Vught Camp was in the interest of the Dutch?

SEYSS-INQUART: Most certainly it was. The cost of Vught Camp, as far as I was informed, was covered out of this property—I believe 14 million guilders were spent—because this camp was to be a Jewish assembly camp. It was only later that Himmler transformed this into a concentration camp.

M. DEBENEST: That is an opinion, and the Tribunal will decide about it. But regarding the property of the Freemasons, what was done with the sums produced by this liquidation, exactly how were they utilized—for the Reich, or also for the construction of concentration camps in the Netherlands?

SEYSS-INQUART: Neither the one nor the other.

THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, he has said already, hasn’t he—I thought he said quite clearly on deposit in some unknown bank, and that there were about 400 million which came from the Jews.

SEYSS-INQUART: Mr. President, I know the bank. The property of the Jews is deposited in the “Vermögens-Verwaltungs und Rentenanstalt.”

M. DEBENEST: Well, I am now going to submit to you a document, which is a letter, Number F-864, which becomes RF-1532. This document states exactly the destination of the property which was thus liquidated. First, you indicate at the beginning of the letter that the total resulting from the liquidation amounted, as you say, to 6,134,662 guilders up to that date, and you indicate that this sum is located in the Reich Foundation (Reichsstiftung) of the Netherlands. This is a German organization, and not a Dutch organization, as far as I understand. You indicate further on how the various sums were to be allocated.

THE PRESIDENT: I think you don’t need trouble about the details of where it is. He says it is there in the bank.

M. DEBENEST: Exactly, Mr. President, I would merely like to read the few lines at the end where he states exactly the purpose of the allocation of the various sums.

“I believe I am complying with your intentions if I assume, with
reference to this liquidated Freemasons’ property, that it too,
as we discussed with reference to Jewish property, should be
used for specific purposes within the Netherlands, according to
an agreement to be reached between us.”

Consequently, your intention was to use the sums in the same manner as the Jewish fortunes, wasn’t it?

SEYSS-INQUART: It doesn’t say that at all.

M. DEBENEST: We have it in writing. That’s still better.

SEYSS-INQUART: The purpose of utilization is perfectly plain. The Reich Minister of Finance wanted to exercise control over Jewish capital; and I called his attention to the fact that it had not been called in, suggesting to him not to call this money into the Reich but to wait and see what the course of events would be.

M. DEBENEST: Were you not proposing to him here that it should be utilized for the same purpose?

SEYSS-INQUART: I suggested to him to use it for certain purposes in the Netherlands, that is, not to send this money into the Reich, but to leave it in the Netherlands; but the use to which it was to be put was left entirely open. He wanted to bring it to the Reich.

THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, I think you can pass on.

M. DEBENEST: I was just thinking that we could leave that to the judgment of the Tribunal.

Let us come back to the matter of these railroad strikes. Did you not ask the secretaries general to stop these strikes?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: Did you not put an embargo on the means of transport and on the food in transit?

SEYSS-INQUART: Certainly.

M. DEBENEST: That was you, was it not?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, I said that yesterday.

M. DEBENEST: Consequently, you knew very well at that time what the food situation was in Holland and the grave consequences which would inevitably result from the decision which you made—a very serious decision.

SEYSS-INQUART: No, not really. The fact was that traffic had already been disrupted because of requisitioning by the Armed Forces, and it was only a question of finding a _modus vivendi_ and after insuring the needs of the Armed Forces, which appeared urgent to me, of resuming the transport of foodstuffs into Holland. If the railroad strike had not taken place, I would have succeeded in persuading the Armed Forces to refrain from requisitioning, and navigation would have been left undisturbed.

M. DEBENEST: But we are not discussing the Armed Forces. You knew very well that the moment you placed this embargo on ships, on the fleet, that it was the time when they were transporting foodstuffs for the winter to Holland.

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, at the moment when I declared the embargo, there was actually no more traffic; and the few ships carrying food were requisitioned by the Armed Forces together with the foodstuffs.

M. DEBENEST: Then your decision was useless?

SEYSS-INQUART: No, because in making this decision I prevailed upon the Armed Forces to make the requisitioning as short as possible and they promised me that the ships which I earmarked would not be interfered with by them.

M. DEBENEST: How long did this embargo last?

SEYSS-INQUART: I believe that between 15 and 20 October I instructed the chief of my traffic department to lift the embargo. Actually, it lasted some weeks longer because the Dutch traffic organization didn’t function.

M. DEBENEST: Until what date, approximately?

SEYSS-INQUART: It may have lasted until the middle of November.

M. DEBENEST: Was not that the period when the traffic was heaviest?

SEYSS-INQUART: That is quite correct. In November and December we could only bring enough foodstuffs to Holland to tide us over these 6 weeks of frost, at the most; and in September I was of the firm conviction that in November and December the shipping facilities would be at my disposal.

M. DEBENEST: And actually, did you obtain them?

SEYSS-INQUART: Unfortunately, no. For due to the failure of the Dutch traffic authorities, coupled with the other war conditions, these facilities were not at my disposal.

M. DEBENEST: But you knew very well that the decision which you were making was fraught with grave consequences?

SEYSS-INQUART: In September this decision was not as serious as the fact that the Armed Forces, in view of the railroad strike, was in sore need of this transport and these facilities; and as it was up to me to safeguard the Reich’s interests, there could be no graver accusation against me than for the German people to say that I did not do everything humanly possible to help to win the struggle.

M. DEBENEST: The Tribunal will take note of your answer.

THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, you dealt with the subject yesterday, didn’t you?

M. DEBENEST: I do not think I did, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the embargo on shipping surely was gone into yesterday.

M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I think I spoke yesterday only of the requisitions which were carried out and I only asked one or two questions of an economic nature. I do not think I touched upon this subject. If I did, I apologize to the Tribunal. In any case, I am finished with it.

[_Turning to the defendant._] What was the position of the Netherlands Bank on your arrival in 1940?

SEYSS-INQUART: The Netherlands Bank as an issuing bank was, I believe, set up primarily on the basis of a private bank. The president was Mr. Trip. The State probably had a certain influence, since it served as the issuing bank.

M. DEBENEST: Give us a briefer explanation.

SEYSS-INQUART: Then it would not be stating the whole truth.

M. DEBENEST: Did the gold reserves cover the amount of notes issued?

SEYSS-INQUART: I assume so on the basis of the gold cover or the reserves of gold currency. In fact the gold cover was higher than the amount of notes issued. The Netherlands Bank had more gold and more gold currency, than it had notes issued.

M. DEBENEST: And what was the position at the time of the German capitulation?

SEYSS-INQUART: There were several thousand million guilders in paper money in circulation, and perhaps another 23 million in gold guilders.

M. DEBENEST: But, above all, Reichsmarks?

SEYSS-INQUART: No, I said 23 million guilders in gold. The rest of the coverage might have been bills from the Reich.

M. DEBENEST: Was it not you who ordered the abolition of the “Currency Frontier”? Will you answer?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: Were you absolutely in agreement with the necessity for abolishing these frontiers?

SEYSS-INQUART: The proposal originated in my office. I took it over. Mr. Trip protested. I sent it to Berlin. In Berlin the Reich Marshal decided in its favor. The Reich Minister Funk was against it; I carried out the proposal which I had made and which had been approved by the Reich Marshal.

M. DEBENEST: But personally you agreed with it?

THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean exactly by the Currency Frontier that you are dealing with now? We merely want to understand what you are talking about.

M. DEBENEST: I mean the free circulation of German currency in Holland.

[_Turning to the defendant._] Did not Holland also have to pay large sums in the form of so-called voluntary contributions, among other things, for the war against Bolshevism?

SEYSS-INQUART: I believe I have explained this matter quite clearly. The Reich demanded during a certain period of time, as direct occupation costs, 50 million marks for the defenses of Holland. In Holland we called this a “voluntary contribution” for obvious political reasons. In reality it was a demand of the Reich which would have had to be paid one way or another, and I would not lay it to the charge of any Dutchman that he paid this contribution voluntarily.

M. DEBENEST: You agreed to these measures, did you not?

SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.

M. DEBENEST: What were the economic and financial consequences of all these measures?

SEYSS-INQUART: The financial consequences were a greatly increased circulation of bank notes, and extremely large banking accounts which remained the same in the Reich as in all occupied countries. We applied one system in Holland, another in France, and in view of the collapse of the Reich, the financial consequences were the same. If Germany had not lost the war, Holland would have had a claim of more than 4,500 million guilders against a sovereign Germany.