Chapter XXX: Section C: of my Appendix A, that the crimes of the SS were committed, (12)

Finally, Number 22, Gottlob Berger, is designated to inform the Tribunal of Hitler’s general views on the situation at the end of April 1945, and would appear to be irrelevant. I think the only point that is made is to show that this had some effect on the radio speech which this defendant wanted to make. These are the views of the Prosecution as to the witnesses. With regard to the panel of experts, the Prosecution respectfully say that these matters of supply labor and armaments are matters which are very generally familiar now and on which a great deal of evidence has been given, and that they are essentially matters which can be dealt with by the Tribunal which will decide other questions of fact. They are not really sufficiently specialist matters to merit the Tribunal’s setting up a special panel to deal with them. These are the views of the Prosecution on the question of witnesses.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Flächsner.

DR. HANS FLÄCHSNER (Counsel for Defendant Speer): May I start, Mr. President, with the last point which the prosecutor has mentioned, namely, the question of whether the case of the Defendant Speer might justify having his sphere of activity explained and interpreted to the Court by an expert. The prosecutor is of the opinion that the evidence presented so far is sufficient to inform the Tribunal about the manner of work, the course of work, and its consequences in regard to those questions, which came under the jurisdiction of the Defendant Speer.

I regret to have to say, however, that the description which the Prosecution has given of the activity of the Defendant Speer up till now is not correct, that is to say, not complete.

It is very difficult to take account of a ministry and its manner of work, which in normal times has no place in the state administration. In all states at war the ministries of armament and production are created during the war. The sphere of activities of these ministries is determined from time to time; and that also applies to the ministry which the Defendant Speer headed.

Not only the ministry of the Defendant Speer, but especially other authorities within the state administration were concerned with that question, which the Prosecution has brought to the notice of the Tribunal; and the authorities overlapped each other in regard to jurisdiction. Many times the jurisdiction of a single authority could not be determined, so that from time to time a solution would have to be found. These are all questions of importance, if the Tribunal is to judge to what extent this or that accusation of the Prosecution, especially concerning the employment of foreign workers, is well founded. In addition we have to consider that that defendant originally involved in this complex of economic questions, who could have helped very much to clear up the question of jurisdiction—the Defendant Ley, who, as head of the German Labor Front, played an important role in the question of labor employment, that is, the taking care of the laborers utilized—that this Defendant Ley is no longer here. The question of the use of foreign labor, of which the Defendant Speer is in the main accused by the Prosecution, must be discussed further. For this reason I requested that an expert be allowed to clear up these purely technical questions of the labor employment as a help to the Tribunal.

The selection of such an expert is not easy. I proposed that one of the gentlemen who work in the economic branch in Washington might have examined the question of Speer’s ministry; and might appear as an expert before this Tribunal. I was told this office does not exist any more and the persons of whom the Defendant Speer had the impression, at the occasion of an interrogation, that they really understood the situation, are no longer available. But, there is still an Allied authority here, which is concerned with, in all probability, economic questions; and perhaps it would be possible to select a suitable person within the circle of gentlemen who are working there, who would be in a position to clear up these questions for the benefit of the Tribunal.

I turn now to the question of witnesses. First of all I have to correct a wrong impression which may have been formed by the Prosecution. If it is said that witnesses 1 to 5—no, 1 to 6, 8 and 10 and 12. . .

THE PRESIDENT: If you are leaving now the question of the panel of experts, this would be a convenient time to break off for the recess.

[_A recess was taken._]

DR. FLÄCHSNER: Mr. President, I am now turning to the question of witnesses and should like to make a general remark before I start.

The evidence to be offered by the witnesses, as I have already requested in writing, is somewhat more extensive for this reason, that those very witnesses who would have had the most comprehensive knowledge cannot be called. Those are the former Army chiefs of armaments, General Fromm, and Schieber, who for many years was the chief of the central office in Speer’s ministry. The names which I have included in my list are, in part, men who only later were called to these tasks. Witness Hupfauer, for instance, who is listed as Number 1, was active in this function only from 1 January 1945 on—that is barely 4 months—as chief of the central office, an office formerly held by the previously mentioned Schieber.

I know very well that if I mention a number of witnesses who were employed in Speer’s ministry the appearance is thereby created that these witnesses might be cumulative because they are questioned in regard to the same points. In reality that is not the case. Indeed, although the witnesses concerned were active in Speer’s ministry, they were not active as routine officials, that is, as professional civil servants in an office.

Speer’s ministry as a war institution was organized along lines entirely different from those of a regular ministry. Main functions were delegated to industrialists, who took care of them in a suboffice. Rohland, witness Number 2, was, for instance, by profession a director of the United Steel Works; witness Number 4 was director of the Zellwell A.G.; witness Number 6, a manufacturer and owner of a textile factory; witness Number 9, the director of the Upper Silesian mining works and of Hütten A.G. In addition to these functions they had special functions in Speer’s ministry. Therefore they can testify only on a small section, namely, those functions delegated to them. Therefore I cannot follow the suggestion of the Prosecution, that only two of these gentlemen be selected by me.

I do not know just how far each of these gentlemen is informed on the questions which I shall submit to him. I am not in the fortunate position of the Prosecution, who can question their witnesses in advance and find out what they know. I must rely on an interrogatory and can only surmise that they are in a position to answer the questions submitted to them. If I were to follow the suggestion of the Prosecution and select only two or three of these gentlemen, it may very well happen that I should select exactly the wrong people, those who do not know anything. Therefore I cannot say that I could dispense with any one of these witnesses who are to be here on the main question in the case against Defendant Speer, namely, the employment of foreign laborers.

In the list of witnesses I mentioned briefly the particulars about which these witnesses are to be heard. I believe that it is unnecessary for me to make further explanations in that regard; I believe my reasons are self-explanatory.

Now I am turning to the question of witness Number 7. This witness has already been granted me. I do not believe that further explanations in regard to this are necessary.

As far as Malzacher, witness Number 9, is concerned, the Prosecution asserts that this witness would be cumulative of witness Number 1. But that is not so. The vital question which is to be put to this witness is the question as to how the distribution of manpower to the various industries was made by the labor office. The second question is, whether and to what extent the offices of Speer’s ministry and the industries had the opportunity of influencing the distribution of available manpower. This witness is of decisive importance in regard to this question. I have further questions to put to this witness and I should include in the interrogatory these questions which refer in particular to destruction, _et cetera_.

I wanted my list to be as concise as possible and therefore mentioned only the main points. I therefore request that this witness be admitted, since I shall make use of the interrogatory only insofar as the witnesses can state therein something which is really relevant. If an interrogatory comes back to me which does not contain relevant material, I shall, of course, refrain from abusing the time and the patience of the Tribunal by not presenting that interrogatory.

The Prosecution is of the opinion that witnesses 12 and 13 are cumulative. That is not correct. Perhaps I expressed myself too concisely in regard to the facts on which these witnesses are to testify.

The Prosecution have, only incidentally to be sure, produced a document, 3568-PS, which contained an interrogatory which gave information regarding Speer’s membership in the SS. This document did not, according to the Defendant Speer, come from him, and therefore I name his secretary as a witness to this fact; that is, she should receive an interrogatory.

Witness 13 is to testify on an entirely different matter. The Reichsführer SS Himmler had the intention of making Speer an SS man and of taking him into his personal staff. Witness Wolff had received from Himmler the official statement, which he was to hand to Speer. And Wolff is to testify that this statement was never forwarded to Speer, for which reason there is no question of Speer’s membership in the SS.

Even if, in respect to the charge in the Indictment, this is a very minor point, it must nevertheless be considered, since Document 3568-PS has been submitted by the Prosecution and used as evidence for their case.

I agree with the Prosecution that questioning of witness Number 22 can be dispensed with and I can do so.

As far as the questioning of the other witnesses is concerned, I ask to be allowed to use interrogatories.

THE PRESIDENT: May I ask you what you have to say about 14? Surely the secretary can speak as to the fact that the defendant was ill in the spring of 1944?

DR. FLÄCHSNER: Yes, Mr. President; I did not include this question in the interrogatory but I can add it, and we can dispense with witness 14.

THE PRESIDENT: Would it, do you think, Sir David, expedite matters or help the defendant’s counsel if he were to be allowed to issue all these interrogatories and then were to consider them with you and see what was then cumulative?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, I should be quite prepared to do that. They are all witnesses who are giving their evidence in writing so that I shall be quite prepared to. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal will consider that aspect of the matter.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If the Tribunal saw fit I should be very happy to co-operate.

THE PRESIDENT: Then you can now deal with the documents, Dr. Flächsner, or Sir David will.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, the documents 1 to 8 deal with the Defendant Speer’s being against the importation into Germany of foreign labor and they seem relevant, apart from Number 1, which seems rather a _non sequitur_, for the amount used in the armament industry does not seem to have any connection, as far as we can see, with the Prisoner-of-War Convention, 1929. And Number 6, as to the calling up of women in Germany, seems rather remote. But perhaps these matters can be more conveniently dealt with when counsel seeks to introduce the documents.

Numbers 9 to 13 show the general attitude of the Defendant Speer to the treatment of foreign workers and therefore appear relevant. Number 14 deals with the point on which I think it is desired also to have evidence from the witness Milch.

Numbers 15 to 18 are reports showing the hopelessness of the economic situation in Germany from June 1944 onwards. The Prosecution makes no objection at the moment. Of course, all these matters will have to be considered when the document is used. And Numbers 19 to 41 all deal with the efforts of the Defendant Speer to prevent destruction of bridges and railways and water transport undertakings and the like, during the last few weeks of the war. They might have a bearing on the sentence and therefore the Prosecution make no objection.

Perhaps learned counsel will set out the quotations which he wants admitted in that regard. It is not a matter on which the Prosecution have called any contrary evidence and therefore, if counsel will indicate what the matters are that he wants submitted, it may be that we shall be able to agree and shorten the presentation.

With regard to Documents 38 to 41, these are said to be in the possession of the French Delegation. They are not in the possession of the French Delegation at the moment, but they have asked for them to be sent here.

I think that covers our position as to documents.

DR. FLÄCHSNER: I should like to comment briefly on one factor. Document Number 1 is of value only if the Tribunal decides to call an expert on the general themes which I described to the Tribunal before the recess.

An expert—for practical purposes an industrial expert—can draw from the old distribution plan conclusions which the jurist is generally not in a position to draw. If the expert is considered superfluous by the Tribunal, then Document Number 1 is also superfluous—that I see.

The other documents requested by me are of importance, but not because, as the Prosecution seem to assume, I am trying to produce evidence of the fact that we did not want any foreign laborers; this should not be expressed so pointedly.

The Defendant Speer had the task of producing armaments and needed workers for that. Nothing is farther from his intentions than, in any way, to deny or lessen his responsibility in respect to that. But what I have to consider important—and for this purpose these documents, which I am requesting, are essential—is the task of defining the extent to which the defendant is responsible.

I believe that this explains the question of documents.

THE PRESIDENT: I am not quite clear as to whether you are suggesting that the Tribunal should call the panel of experts or whether you would like to designate the persons who would form that panel.

DR. FLÄCHSNER: The selection of experts I wish to place in the hands of the Tribunal. At the moment I myself should not have the opportunity of finding a suitable person. I am fully aware, though, that in the department of economic warfare there were persons who would be very suitable as experts and who have the knowledge which is necessary in the judgment of these questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Then, supposing that the Tribunal were not to accept your contention as to appointing a panel of experts, there is nobody whom you wish to add to your list of interrogatories?

DR. FLÄCHSNER: I believe not, Mr. President. I have only one more request. This expert should voice an opinion as to whether the figures given by Mr. Deuss in his affidavit—Document Number 2520-PS—would stand up under close examination. In this affidavit Mr. Deuss stated statistically how many of all the workers employed in Germany were foreign workers in the armament industry, _et cetera_.

Important technical objections can be raised to the method of figuring used by Mr. Deuss. If the Tribunal is not to grant the use of an expert in this matter, I wish to ask for permission to submit certain questions to Mr. Deuss, in the form of an interrogatory, naturally, in order to give him the opportunity of checking his figures.

The affidavit as given by Mr. Deuss and the statements contained therein were considered relevant by the Prosecution at the time; I assume that the objections made to Mr. Deuss’ figures will also be considered relevant. I should then have to ask permission to call Mr. Deuss’ attention, by means of an interrogatory, to these points which in my opinion are technically incorrect.

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.

COL. POKROVSKY: Please forgive me. I have not had the time to exchange opinions on the subject with my friend, Sir David, and my other colleagues. Therefore, at the present time, I am merely expressing the point of view of the Soviet Delegation on the subject of experts.

I do not consider that the appointment of a board of experts would be a method of solving the problem which could be recognized as correct. We would object to the introduction of experts for the clarification of the circumstances interesting the Defendant Speer and his counsel, as set forth in the document submitted by them. We do not consider it right that a question like the procedure governing the request for manpower for Speer’s ministry, and the ratification of this request by Sauckel, as well as the allocation of workers by the competent local labor offices should call for the findings of a board of experts. We do not consider it right that questions of technical productions, as emanating from Speer’s ministry, should call for expert opinion.

I could say as much with regard to all the subsequent points. We are inclined to defend the point of view that all these problems can be adequately elucidated by the high Tribunal, and this without the intervention of experts. Therefore the Soviet Prosecution objects to the granting of this claim and requests the Tribunal to reject the application for a board of experts.

THE PRESIDENT: I call upon counsel for the Defendant Von Neurath.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, with regard to the witnesses of the Defendant Von Neurath, the Prosecution makes no objection to Number 1, Dr. Koepke, who was the director of the political division in the Foreign Office.

Then, Number 2, Dr. Gauss, is the witness who has already been granted for the Defendant Ribbentrop.

With regard to the third, Dr. Dieckhoff, the Tribunal granted this witness on the 19th of December, but the Prosecution, having considered the basis of the present application, respectfully suggests that it might be covered by interrogatories.

DR. OTTO FREIHERR VON LÜDINGHAUSEN (Counsel for Defendant Von Neurath): Mr. President, I agree, and I have already worked out an interrogatory which will be submitted to the General Secretary today; but I wish to reserve the right of asking under certain circumstances that, when the interrogatory is returned to me, the witness nevertheless be heard in person before the Tribunal. In principle I agree, however, to his being heard by means of an interrogatory.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Much obliged. And the same view is taken by the Prosecution of Number 4, the witness Prüfer; again it seemed to be largely a historical matter and they suggested an interrogatory. There is no objection to the evidence of the witness being brought before the Court.

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: This interrogatory has already been submitted by me to the General Secretary several weeks ago. I assume that it will be returned to me, answered, within a reasonable period of time.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Then, Number 5 is Count Schwerin von Krosigk, who was Finance Minister for a long period of years in the Government of the Reich. If the Tribunal would be good enough to look at the application which Dr. Von Lüdinghausen has put in: He says this witness is most accurately informed about the personality of the defendant, his political viewpoints as well as the basic thoughts and aims of the policy of peace carried on by the defendant, and his avoidance of all use of force as well as his endeavors for the maintenance of peace, even after being Foreign Minister, and about his opinion of National Socialism and about the happenings in the Cabinet session of 30 January 1937.

The Prosecution felt that these matters were really emphasizing points that the defendant would speak on, and that it was difficult to see that Count Schwerin von Krosigk was being asked to speak on any particular point that was an issue. Therefore, again, they would suggest that an interrogatory would be sufficient for the purpose of the defense.

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: I do not believe that an interrogatory will serve the purpose that I wish to accomplish, for several sectors of the activity of the Defendant Von Neurath are dealt with, in regard to which the witness is to give us information.

For instance, the Indictment asserts that Defendant Von Neurath acted as a sort of Fifth Column in the ranks of the conservative, that is, the German National Party. In regard to the fact that this is not true, the witness named by me, Count Schwerin von Krosigk, can give extensive information; and I attach importance to having this take place before the Tribunal in such a way that the Tribunal may have an idea also of the atmosphere in the ranks of the parties of the Right at the time these things took place.

A further subject for his hearing is the question of the outstanding manner in which the Defendant Von Neurath intervened, although he was no longer Foreign Minister at the time, in order to bring about the conference at Munich in September 1938, and the measure in which he had an effect on the outcome of this conference which, at that time, was generally considered a happy one.

I should consider the summoning before the Tribunal of this witness, who is present in Nuremberg, and who will therefore not have to be brought from another city, important.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I do not desire to say anything more on that point.

Then, Field Marshal Von Blomberg is, we understand, ill, and there will be an interrogatory.

Number 7, Dr. Guido Schmidt, is the same witness as was dealt with this morning in the case of Seyss-Inquart. He is an Austrian ex-Foreign Minister. I made no objection in the case of Seyss-Inquart and I make no objection now, of course.

Lord Halifax has been the subject of interrogatories.

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: The interrogatory has already been sent to Lord Halifax, as I have been told by the General Secretary.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Dr. Mastny, who was the Czechoslovakian Ambassador in Berlin, came into the case in that the Prosecution put in a letter from Jan Masaryk describing a visit of Dr. Mastny to the Defendant Von Neurath. Of course, if there is any issue as to that report—its not being true—then there would be some reason for calling him as a witness; but if it is merely a question of clarifying it, I should believe an interrogatory would be sufficient.

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: I agree to an interrogatory in this case.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Then with regard to the next witness, Dr. Stroelin—if the Tribunal would consider that along with Number 12, Dr. Wurm—I understand that the Tribunal granted Number 12 on the 19th of December as an alternative to Stroelin, giving the choice between the witness Stroelin and the witness Wurm. Dr. Stroelin is Oberbürgermeister of Stuttgart. I do not know if Dr. Seidl can tell the Tribunal if it is the same Dr. Stroelin he desires in the case of Hess.

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Dr. Von Lüdinghausen tells me that he is, so the Tribunal might note that point—that that witness will also be asked for by Dr. Seidl in the case of Hess—and therefore I should suggest that we might leave that undecided for the moment. If the Tribunal grant it in the case of Hess, of course, Dr. Von Lüdinghausen will automatically have the advantage of this witness; and if he is not granted—and I do not know whether Dr. Von Lüdinghausen feels strongly about his personal presence—I am not the Court—I do not feel very strongly on the point myself. Do you want to be heard?

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: I quite agree that I should make this decision at that time when the question is settled as to whether the witness is granted to another defendant or not. I should like to make the following remark. . .

THE PRESIDENT: One moment. Which witness?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Number 10, Dr. Stroelin.

THE PRESIDENT: If Dr. Stroelin were granted would you require Dr. Wurm at all, Number 12?

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, I do not insist on Dr. Wurm’s being heard in person at Nuremberg. Bishop Wurm has already told me that he would give me the information requested in the form of an affidavit. I should ask for permission to submit this affidavit to the Tribunal. I do not insist on his being heard in person.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It is merely cumulative, Number 10, but if it is felt that an affidavit would help—it will be along the same lines—I shall not press an objection.

Now, Number 11. The Prosecution felt, with regard to the witness Zimmermann, that he was really speaking on the contents of the defendant’s mind. If I might read the first five lines:

“The witness is in a position to give information about the
personality, the character, and the philosophy of the defendant,
as well as about the fact that he entered the Cabinet only at
the express request of the Reich President Von Hindenburg, and
that he remained in the Cabinet after the latter’s death because
he was a convinced friend of peace and an opponent of any policy
pointing toward force or war, and that because of this reason he
handed in his resignation as Reich Foreign Minister soon after 5
November 1937; also about the reasons because of which he
declared himself ready to take over the office of Reich
Protector of Bohemia and Moravia.”

It would appear that these are all matters which Dr. Zimmermann has heard from the defendant. I do not really think it helps the defendant’s case any further. The Prosecution therefore felt that that witness was irrelevant.

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: I should like to request that he be heard here. The witness has been a very intimate friend of Defendant Von Neurath for many, many years. The defendant considered him somewhat as a father confessor and informed him of everything which oppressed him. From this information the witness has a very clear impression of events and happenings. Thus this lawyer, Dr. Zimmermann, is very closely informed about the incidents that took place in September 1932, when Von Neurath entered the newly-formed Cabinet of Von Papen upon the express desire of the then Reich President Von Hindenburg. The witness is informed of the fact that Defendant Von Neurath did not wish to accept the call, and that it took very earnest persuasion on the part of the Reich President Von Hindenburg, concerning his patriotic and personal duty, before the defendant could be moved to assume the office of Reich Foreign Minister. This witness also knows the motives because of which the defendant after the death of the Reich President considered it his duty, in response to a wish expressed previously by the Reich President, to remain in office, and in that way to fulfill the wishes of the Reich President.

He also knows very well what a really devastating effect it had on Von Neurath when, on 5 November 1937, Hitler for the first time came to the fore with martial intent. Witness Zimmermann also knows very exactly the reasons which moved the defendant after very long deliberation to assume the office of Reich Protector. The witness also is very well informed not only about the difficulties confronting the position of Reich Protector, but also about the attitude of the defendant to the problems in the Reich Protectorate. These matters are all of decisive importance so far as a judgment of the defendant is concerned, and I do not believe that even an affidavit or minutes of interrogation which has been worked out with the greatest care can have the same weight as a personal hearing of the witness. For these reasons I request that this witness, who has already given me his assurance that he will be glad to come here from Berlin, be granted me. We do not have to find him; he is a practicing lawyer and notary in Berlin.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I do not wish to add to that. That leaves one point, My Lord, the two witnesses, 13 and 14. The first one, Dr. Völkers, was the chief of the Cabinet of Defendant Von Neurath in Prague. He has not been located. The second, Von Holleben, was. . .

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: This witness is in an internment camp at Neumünster, and I indicated the exact address.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Then I think the submission of the Prosecution is that one of these witnesses is suitable, and that it would be unnecessary to call the second witness if Dr. Völkers is available. That is my point.

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: I quite agree, but I ask you to consent to witness Consul Von Holleben’s being heard by means of an interrogatory.

THE PRESIDENT: It is now a quarter to 1; we will adjourn until 2.

[_The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours._]

_Afternoon Session_

THE PRESIDENT: It appears probable that the Tribunal will finish the applications for witnesses and documents before the end of the sitting today, but they do not propose to go on with the case against the Defendant Göring until tomorrow. They will take that case at 10 o’clock tomorrow morning.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, with regard to the documents applied for by the Defendant Von Neurath, Paragraph 1 requires no comment.

Paragraph 2 refers to documents which Dr. Von Lüdinghausen has in his possession. If they are treated in the usual way and extracts are made, I have nothing further to say.

Then we come to documents that are not yet in his possession. Number 1 and Number 4 are minutes of the Disarmament Conference in 1932 and in May 1933 respectively. I am afraid I do not know what the difficulty has been in obtaining those documents, and if there is any way in which the Prosecution can help, they will.

DR. VON LÜDINGHAUSEN: Concerning Document Number 1 I was able to find, in the meantime, in one of the documents which referred to the Disarmament Conference, a copy of this document which is important for me, namely, the resolution about Germany’s equality of rights. If the document which I have asked for is not here in time, I am nevertheless in the position of having to submit an excerpt from this German book. However, that does not apply to Number 4, and I should like to be able to get that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Number 2 is a request for the interrogation of Karl Hermann Frank.

The ruling of the Tribunal was that only the portions of interrogations of defendants used by the Prosecution might be re-used. If any portions of this interrogation were used by the Soviet Prosecution, and I confess. . .

THE PRESIDENT: One moment, please, Sir David. As I understood you, you did not state our ruling quite accurately.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am sorry, My Lord.

THE PRESIDENT: I think our ruling was that if the Prosecution put in any part of an interrogation of a defendant, then the defendants would have the opportunity of using any other part of the interrogation, treating the interrogation as one document.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am very grateful to Your Lordship. That was the rule so far as defendants are concerned, but Karl Hermann Frank is not a defendant.

THE PRESIDENT: Oh, I see.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And any portion that has been used would have appeared in the ordinary way in the document book of whichever delegation had used it. The general interrogation was taken, of course, not only for the Prosecution’s purpose at this Trial, but also for the purposes of the Czech Government, in the trial of Karl Hermann Frank himself. Therefore, what I suggest is that Dr. Lüdinghausen put interrogatories to Karl Hermann Frank, on whatever points he wants to raise. The Prosecution would have no objection to that.

DR. LÜDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, may I make the following reply?

These minutes of the four interrogations of Karl Hermann Frank are mentioned and discussed in Exhibit Number USSR-60, which has been given to me and which contains the indictment made by the Czech Government.

I cannot judge to what extent these interrogations are important in reference to my client, the Defendant Von Neurath, as Reich Protector, or whether they have to do with a later period. For that reason I have asked that these protocols be made available to me. I know that Karl Hermann Frank has also been questioned about the document concerning the meeting in Prague on a policy of Germanization of the Czech country. To this document, which was presented, that is to say, which is contained in a report of General Friderici, reference is made in the respective minutes.

Now, I know that Frank once made a report to the Reich Protector in which he labeled all the opinions and proposals—which actually, however, were never put into actions—ridiculous and declared them to be impossible. Therefore, it is important for me to know just what is said in these minutes which the Czech indictment has drawn on at this point. If nothing is contained therein, then, of course, I shall dispense with these minutes, but I have to examine them myself. It is, therefore, important for me to see these minutes, at least, and then to present from them whatever is of importance for me.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, would you have any objection to counsel for Von Neurath seeing these interrogations?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I should have to consult the Czech Government before I could agree, because, frankly, I have not gone through the parts which we were not concerned with in this case, and I do not know on what subjects the interrogation was based.

THE PRESIDENT: But treating the matter as a matter of principle, if a certain document or a part of a document is used, ought it not to be open to the defendants to use the rest of the document?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I should have thought it a matter of principle, My Lord, only if there were connected parts. I think that is the general rule that is applied, say, to interrogatories in the English courts. For example, supposing that one day Karl Hermann Frank was examined about the early days of the Protectorate, and then on another day he was examined on a specific point at the end of the Protectorate. Then I should not have thought that the two things were sufficiently closely connected.

My Lord, I am reminded that there is another point, which Mr. Barrington has just brought to my attention. These interrogatories were the basis of the Czech Government report. They are not introduced as interrogatories but—so I am told—as part of the report by the person who drew it. It is not material that we are in a position to introduce as interrogatories. They come in as a Government report from the Czech Government.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): If it should develop later that it is relevant to the occasion, could the Prosecution object to that material being introduced?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No. If he can get the material, but the material is the property of the Czech Government.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Then your position is really that it is not in your hands, but for the Czech Government to determine it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Certainly.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): I see.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The only other document is the treaty between France and the Soviet Union, in 1935. This document was authorized by the General Secretary on 29 January, and if there is any difficulty in getting a copy, I will try to do anything I can to help, subject to the reservation of objecting to its relevance when I know what use is going to be made of it.

DR. LÜDINGHAUSEN: May I add a few more words to this point?

During the very last few days I have received, from various sides, suggestions of information which seem important to my defense; but I have not yet had the opportunity of checking this information and finding out whether it is really of importance to the conduct of the Defense. May I therefore ask, if this should be the case and if there should be one or two other witnesses or documents which I can find out about only later, that I be permitted to make an application supplementary to the list of witnesses and documents I have given today.

THE PRESIDENT: I call upon counsel for the Defendant Fritzsche.

[_Dr. Fritz approached the lectern._]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, there are only two witnesses applied for in this case.

The first of them is Von Schirmeister, who was an official of the late Dr. Goebbels in the Propaganda Ministry. The Prosecution have no objection to that witness.

With regard to the second witness, Dr. Otto Kriegk, the application says that he received his information and instructions from the Defendant Fritzsche and he can speak as to the directives issued to journalists. On the assumption that these were more or less official directives that he gave in the course of his duty, again, I do not think there can be any objection from the Prosecution. But I do not know what Dr. Fritz would think about interrogatories, or whether he has any strong views about calling Dr. Kriegk on that point. As I understand it, it would be more or less a synopsis of the directives given, but in view of the very modest proportions of the applications in this case, I do not want to be unreasonable if there is any special reason for calling Dr. Kriegk.

DR. HEINZ FRITZ (Counsel for Defendant Fritzsche): Your Honors, I have presented a very restricted list of evidence material and I should be grateful if the personal appearance of the second witness, Dr. Kriegk, were granted, for the following reasons: First the witness Von Schirmeister has been named because he is to give us information about the internal tasks which the Defendant Fritzsche had in the Ministry for Propaganda, especially about his relations to Dr. Goebbels. As far as the daily press conferences which the Defendant Fritzsche held are concerned, this first witness, Von Schirmeister, did not take part in them. From the subjective angle, especially, it is important to know what directives the Defendant Fritzsche gave the journalists, specifically the most important German journalists who assembled daily at his press conferences.

As a further reason for my request that the personal appearance of this witness be granted, I point out that, of the collection of documents or rather of the two document collections, 1 and 2 of my list are not yet available to me, so that there are various points which I had wanted to prove by presenting documents or quotations therefrom which I now hope to prove by questioning these two witnesses.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I do not press the point of an affidavit. I leave it to the Tribunal.

With regard to the documents, Number 1 is the broadcasts of the Defendant Fritzsche, and there is obviously no objection from the Prosecution to that.

Number 2 is the archives of the section German Express Service. And again we make no objection at this stage. We will perhaps have to consider the reports when we get them.

There is a little trouble about the third group, sworn testimony or letters which contain objective observations on the part of the writers about the acts of the Defendant Fritzsche. If these are official reports or anything of that kind, of course, there would be no objection, if they were contemporaneous; but the course which the Prosecution respectfully suggests to the Tribunal is that we wait and see these in the document book and then we can consider them and make any objection when they come up.

DR. FRITZ: I agree to this procedure. I believe I need say nothing more about Documents 1 and 2 after the statement Sir David has just made.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, some of the defense counsel want to put in supplementary applications. It would be convenient to deal with them now.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Perhaps Your Lordship will allow me to confer with my colleagues as we deal with each one, as we go along, in case they have any further views to express.

THE PRESIDENT: Certainly. I think there are some supplementary applications by Dr. Seidl.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President and Your Honors, on 28 February 1946, I submitted to the Tribunal a supplementary application for the Defendant Rudolf Hess. The application was necessary for the following reasons: In my first application I mentioned the witness Bohle, the former Gauleiter of the Auslands-Organisation of the NSDAP, for a number of subjects, among others in reference to the German Foreign Institute and the activity of the League for Germans Abroad. When I made that application to question the witness Bohle I had not yet had any opportunity to speak to the witness. After approval by the Tribunal, however, I did so, and I found out that the witness Bohle, although he can make very concrete statements about the Auslands-Organisation, does not have any immediate first-hand information about the activity of the German Foreign Institute and the activity of the League for Germans Abroad.

I therefore ask that the following be approved as further witnesses: First, Dr. Karl Stroelin, former Oberbürgermeister of Stuttgart and finally President of the German Foreign Institute. The witness is here in Nuremberg as a prisoner awaiting trial, and it is the same witness who has also been requested by the Defendant Von Neurath in his case.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Perhaps it would be convenient, My Lord, if Dr. Seidl would indicate what the final position of these witnesses is. As I understand it, he no longer wants Herr Bohle. Is that right? I am not clear whether this witness is in addition to or in substitution for Herr Bohle.

DR. SEIDL: With regard to the witness Dr. Stroelin, this is an additional witness. The witness Bohle will still be needed as a witness, but only concerning the matter of the activity of the Auslands-Organisation. The witness Stroelin, since the witness Bohle has not first-hand information about the Foreign Institute, should speak about this latter point.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If I understand it, that would mean that Dr. Seidl is now asking for Herr Bohle, Herr Stroelin, Dr. Haushofer, and an affidavit, I think it is, from Alfred Hess.

I am not sure that this is not rather an accumulation of witnesses on what is, perhaps, a narrower point than Dr. Seidl realizes, from the point of view of the Prosecution. The Prosecution said that the Auslands-Organisation was used for promoting Fifth Column activities, but it was only put in this way: That by using the Auslands-Organisation there was, first of all, complete record and organization of Party members abroad; secondly, the intelligence service of that organization, through the organization, reported on all German officials of every section of the Government who came abroad and kept check on them in their work, in addition to German subjects; and because of this intelligence service, these Germans were ready for use and in fact were used when there was a question of invasion of the country.

It was not suggested that there were direct orders, for example, to blow up bridges or commit acts of sabotage, given directly to the organization, which is a matter of inference from the functioning of the organization that I have described.

I say that only because it should be helpful to Dr. Seidl to know the case he has to meet. The Prosecution has never proved direct orders for sabotage in this regard.

DR. SEIDL: The trial brief on his case has accused Rudolf Hess of the fact that, under his leadership, the Auslands-Organisation of the NSDAP, as well as the Foreign Institute and the League for Germans Abroad had developed an activity which was almost equivalent to that of a Fifth Column. It is correct that in the original indictment of the Defendant Hess, personally, there were no details given by means of which the indictment meant to show this activity and above all Hess’ guilt in regard to the activities of these organizations.

As long, however, as the Auslands-Organisation and the Foreign Institute and the League for Germans Abroad are accused of any connection with the activities of a Fifth Column, the Defendant Hess has a reasonable interest in seeing explained, first, what kind of activity these organizations had and, second, which orders or directives he had given to these organizations.

The witness Bohle is in a position to make very concrete statements regarding the Auslands-Organisation. The same is necessary for the German Foreign Institute about which Dr. Stroelin, who is here in Nuremberg, can make authentic statements, and for the League for Germans Abroad, about which the witness Dr. Haushofer can speak.

I agree, however, with regard to the physical condition of the witness, Dr. Haushofer, that only an interrogatory be used for this witness.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have no objection to interrogation as far as Dr. Haushofer is concerned.

THE PRESIDENT: There is one more you want?

DR. SEIDL: Yes, Sir, a third one. Before I come to the third witness, whom I wish to name as an additional witness, I should like to inform the Tribunal that I do not insist on a personal hearing of the witness Ingeborg Sperr, who has already been approved by the Court. Instead of that, I shall submit a short affidavit, which is already in the document book which I have already given to the General Secretary.

In the place of the witness Sperr, I request, however, that the witness Alfred Leitgen be called. Leitgen was for many years, until the flight of Rudolf Hess to England, his adjutant.

I could not apply for this witness any sooner because I have found out only now where this witness is. I believe that a personal hearing of this witness is so important that one should not dispense with it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The two points which Dr. Seidl specifies both seem to be relevant points, and in view of the fact that he is prepared to drop the calling of the secretary, the Prosecution will not take objection to that witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Are there any more applications?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I wonder if Your Lordship will allow me to say one thing. Dr. Servatius has already had certain conversations with a member of my staff. I think they will prove profitable and helpful on the lines that Your Lordship suggested, and if the Tribunal will be good enough to safeguard Dr. Servatius’ rights for a day or two, we hope to have something practical and useful to put before the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: You mean with reference to the organizations?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, with reference to the Defendant Sauckel.

THE PRESIDENT: Oh, yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Your Lordship will remember that you allowed the matter to stand over. We have been working along the lines that Your Lordship suggested, but I am afraid that I have not had time to go into it myself and see the final result.

THE PRESIDENT: I see.

DR. SERVATIUS: In discussing the witnesses, I proposed a restriction which is being presented to the Court in writing. Concerning the documents, I have also practically come to an agreement as to how they should be handled. There are, however, two principal applications which I should like to submit and which have not been mentioned so far. But I believe that a decision will have to be made by the Tribunal in respect to principle. The applications are Documents 80 and 81.

Document 80 is a photostat of a deportation order which had been issued in the city of Oels by the Soviet local commander, whereby the native male population had to report for deportation; and it can be seen from this order that it is deportation for the purpose of labor. I want to submit this to show that the Hague agreement concerning land warfare has been considered obsolete by the Soviet Army. I have only this one deportation order. I should therefore like to suggest that the Tribunal make use of Article 17(e) of the Charter and have a judge determine on the spot to what extent this deportation took place, and I should like thereby to have it shown that it is not only the town of Oels, but that it was done similarly on a large scale in the cities of East Prussia and Upper Silesia. The population was deported in large numbers for purposes of work and, if the information which I have received is correct, part of the population of Königsberg is today still in the Ural Mountains. I am not in a position to submit documents about all these things, because of the difficulties of mailing, and the difficulties of receiving news from the East at all. But the Tribunal should be in a position, by asking the mayors and other officials, to find out that what I have just said is correct.

Under Document 81 I submit an affidavit concerning the city of Saaz in Czechoslovakia. There 10,000 inhabitants of the city of Saaz were put into a camp and, until Christmas 1945, they worked there without pay. I believe also that this is proof of the fact that the Hague agreement concerning land warfare is considered to be obsolete and outmoded in regard to labor employment.

Furthermore, Documents 90 and 91: These are two books with affidavits meant as a substitute for an investigation. It would be irrelevant if I were to produce one or two affidavits concerning conditions in the labor camps. One could object to that as being irrelevant because, in view of the large number of factories and camps which exist, little proof would be afforded by these affidavits. These mass conditions have somehow to be considered juridically. Therefore, the Charter has admitted government reports. I am not in a position to ask a government to help me in this matter. Therefore I have to find a substitute by collecting affidavits and grouping them in logical form in a notebook in order to submit them to the Tribunal. This is the purpose of my proposal to introduce a presentation of proof which is an innovation and is difficult for me; but thereby the same objections are justified which one might make to an investigation. An investigation has great weaknesses, especially if it is conducted in a one-sided manner without participation of those involved on the other side. In the case of my affidavits, this danger is greatly reduced because it is hard to find anybody who would fill out these affidavits unless he has very serious reasons for doing so. I therefore ask the Tribunal to decide about my application concerning these Documents 90 and 91. That is the matter I wanted to submit here; the rest I shall discuss with the Prosecution.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, I have already intimated the grounds on which the Prosecution object to Documents 80 and 81. To test their admissibility the easiest way is to assume that Dr. Servatius has proved the facts alleged. And if that is done they would not, in my opinion, come within miles of proving that Article 52 had become obsolete; and it is illustrative of the danger which I ventured to point out to the Tribunal in regard to these two arguments—that vague and hypothetical suggestion that there might be some evidence that Article 52 had become obsolete. It is suggested that the Tribunal should try the conduct of the Soviet Union with regard to labor conditions and, as I understand, send a commission to collect evidence on that point; and I do not want to repeat the arguments, but the Prosecution most strenuously object to the suggestion and say that nothing has been indicated which provides any basis for it.

With regard to 90 and 91, I really feel that the best method would be by _solvitur ambulando_. Let us see the affidavits and get some idea of their contents and the source of knowledge disclosed and then the Prosecution can make a decision regarding them. At this stage I do not want to do anything to exclude them and they will receive the most careful attention by my colleagues and me when they are brought forward.

THE PRESIDENT: I am told that there are other supplementary applications for the Defendant Schacht and for the Defendant Keitel. I think there may be some mistake about that.